1529 réponses à ce sujet

[NYG1991]

Specter status really isn't good for anything other than getting gov't discount and intimidating gangsters. The councils not going to back shep up if the alliance wants to put him on trial for his choices as a spectre.

[Lukertin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
My Shepard was an active Spectre when he did that, will be able to make his case as to why, and if the Council still decides to revoke his status it would have to be legally retroactive - another huge precedent that would be antithetical to the Spectres mandate - for that status to be overruled.

That doesn't stop the Council themselves from holding that Shepard accountable, and even executing him.  It's just that the Systems Alliance still doesn't have jurisdiction.  It would be a show trial to appease the Batarians.  Nothing more.

Was it?  Shepard died, his Spectre status ended.  Anderson appeared to unilaterally reinstate his Spectre status, the Council could rule that Anderson acted without authority of the Council (seems like they only do things in unanimity).  Bam, Shepard is tried by the SA, the Council refuses to have anything to do with it.  End of line.

[Zulu_DFA]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

If the Alliance higher-ups want the trial on Earth, they can do it. Looks like they are doing it. Simple as that.

OOC, and plot hole. Simple as that.

[Almostfaceman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Like I said, having the trial on Earth is just like a left-handed salute. Looks cool, but is utterly ridiculous.

Yes, we get it that Arcturus is the capital of the Alliance.  What you don't get is that it doesn't mean a trial has to be there. Earth, per the codex, is just as prestigous, if not more so, than Arcturus station.  It is also the capital of humanity.  Arcturus station, per the codex, derives its power and is largely answerable to Earth, since Earth is still the cradle of humanity and where the vast majority of humanity's population resides.

[upsettingshorts]

Lukertin wrote...

Was it?  Shepard died, his Spectre status ended.  Anderson appeared to unilaterally reinstate his Spectre status, the Council could rule that Anderson acted without authority of the Council (seems like they only do things in unanimity).  Bam, Shepard is tried by the SA, the Council refuses to have anything to do with it.  End of line.

So you're saying they'd get around it by fibbing?  It's possible, sure.  But I doubt it.  In my game the Council offered to reinstate Shepard's status without a recommendation from Anderson, though he and Udina endorsed it.  I believe it was the Asari councilor's idea.

[Almostfaceman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

If the Alliance higher-ups want the trial on Earth, they can do it. Looks like they are doing it. Simple as that.

OOC, and plot hole. Simple as that.

Nope, Earth is also the capital of humanity per the codex and it's just as prestigous (I say more so) as Arcturus.

[GreenDragon37]

leonia42 wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Yes they can. The Systems Alliance is Humanity.

Damn, and here I thought Cerberus was humanity.

For the record, I still think the Citadel is where the trial should be conducted. The batarians won't trust the SA to conduct a fair trial in their own territory and many Shepards are still Spectres. Shepard has other crimes besides just the 300,000 dead batarians to answer for and not all of them relate to the System Alliance.

At the same time, I don't think we can rule out Arcturus Station as a distinct possibility, especially in the case of the Council revoking Shepard's Spectre status. They may just have to try Shepard when procedings with the SA are done. If they get the chance.

Has everyone forgotten about the death of Spectre Vasir?

1. That was some line TIM sputtered out in a fit of arrogance. Cerberus is, and always will be a Pro-Human terrorist organization that went rogue. Nothing more.

2. I bet the Council/the Alliance worked this out in some way or another. If you had an all-Human Council it wouldn't matter anyway. If they want you to be tried on Earth, they can try you on Earth. SImple as that.

3. Vasir... that's a tough one. However, she did technically try to kill you first.

[Leonia]

Lukertin wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
My Shepard was an active Spectre when he did that, will be able to make his case as to why, and if the Council still decides to revoke his status it would have to be legally retroactive - another huge precedent that would be antithetical to the Spectres mandate - for that status to be overruled.

That doesn't stop the Council themselves from holding that Shepard accountable, and even executing him.  It's just that the Systems Alliance still doesn't have jurisdiction.  It would be a show trial to appease the Batarians.  Nothing more.

Was it?  Shepard died, his Spectre status ended.  Anderson appeared to unilaterally reinstate his Spectre status, the Council could rule that Anderson acted without authority of the Council (seems like they only do things in unanimity).  Bam, Shepard is tried by the SA, the Council refuses to have anything to do with it.  End of line.

What about if you saved the Council and they all acknowledged the re-instatement (this is what happened for my Shepard)? Obviously it meant nothing in Terminus space where they have no jurisdiction but once Shepard is back in Council space, the rules kick back in.

Modifié par leonia42, 01 avril 2011 - 05:34 .

[GreenDragon37]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

If the Alliance higher-ups want the trial on Earth, they can do it. Looks like they are doing it. Simple as that.

OOC, and plot hole. Simple as that.

Again, how is it a plot hole? I think you are only calling "plot hole" because you don't like it!

[piemanz]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

If the Alliance higher-ups want the trial on Earth, they can do it. Looks like they are doing it. Simple as that.

OOC, and plot hole. Simple as that.

Again, how is it a plot hole? I think you are only calling "plot hole" because you don't like it!

We have a winner!

[upsettingshorts]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

1. That was some line TIM sputtered out in a fit of arrogance. Cerberus is, and always will be a Pro-Human terrorist organization that went rogue. Nothing more.

Considering they've committed approximately zero acts of terrorism, I disagree.  They're a jingoistic criminal organization.

GreenDragon37 wrote...

 If they want you to be tried on Earth, they can try you on Earth. SImple as that.

This part is probably true.  Jurisdiction arguments still applying under certain conditions.

GreenDragon37 wrote...

3. Vasir... that's a tough one. However, she did technically try to kill you first.

And the witnesses for that one?  Runs into the same problem as the Alpha Relay.  Where's the concrete evidence to exonerate Shepard?

[GreenDragon37]

leonia42 wrote...

Lukertin wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
My Shepard was an active Spectre when he did that, will be able to make his case as to why, and if the Council still decides to revoke his status it would have to be legally retroactive - another huge precedent that would be antithetical to the Spectres mandate - for that status to be overruled.

That doesn't stop the Council themselves from holding that Shepard accountable, and even executing him.  It's just that the Systems Alliance still doesn't have jurisdiction.  It would be a show trial to appease the Batarians.  Nothing more.

Was it?  Shepard died, his Spectre status ended.  Anderson appeared to unilaterally reinstate his Spectre status, the Council could rule that Anderson acted without authority of the Council (seems like they only do things in unanimity).  Bam, Shepard is tried by the SA, the Council refuses to have anything to do with it.  End of line.

What about if you saved the Council and they all acknowledged the re-instatement (this is what happened for my Shepard)? Obviously it meant nothing in Terminus space where they have no jurisdiction but once Shepard is back in Council space, the rules kick back in.

How sincere was the Council, however? They spent the last 2 years tearing you apart. They didn't seem very sincere when they re-instated you, they just wanted you to go back to the Terminus, like you were still dead.

[upsettingshorts]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

How sincere was the Council, however? They spent the last 2 years tearing you apart. They didn't seem very sincere when they re-instated you, they just wanted you to go back to the Terminus, like you were still dead.

Whether or not the woman at the DMV was sincere when she said I'd be a good driver when she handed me my driver's license is irrelevant.  I have my driver's license.  

All that means though is that a reinstated Spectre Shepard is a reinstated Spectre Shepard.  Whether or not the Council will drop him/her like a bad, hard to manage habit once they hear about the events of Arrival is a different matter entirely.  Would they be concerned about precedent?  Do they care about Shepard personally?  Are they convinced that Shepard is either totally bonkers or maybe onto something with this Reaper thing after all?  We don't know.

I do know my reinstated Spectre Shepard is a reinstated Spectre as of the events of Arrival, and that has legal consequences.

[GreenDragon37]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

1. That was some line TIM sputtered out in a fit of arrogance. Cerberus is, and always will be a Pro-Human terrorist organization that went rogue. Nothing more.

Considering they've committed approximately zero acts of terrorism, I disagree.  They're a jingoistic criminal organization.

GreenDragon37 wrote...

 If they want you to be tried on Earth, they can try you on Earth. SImple as that.

This part is probably true.  Jurisdiction arguments still applying under certain conditions.

GreenDragon37 wrote...

3. Vasir... that's a tough one. However, she did technically try to kill you first.

And the witnesses for that one?  Runs into the same problem as the Alpha Relay.  Where's the concrete evidence to exonerate Shepard?

1. How do you know they've commited zero acts of terrorism? Even Jacob admits that they are called terrorists for  a good reason. TIM and Miranda are also not above using terrorist tactics. They admit it. They're goal is to get the job done and advance Human progress, whatever it takes.

3. The only eyewitnesses were a bunch of scared diner guests, and that girl who was taken hostage.

[Zulu_DFA]

leonia42 wrote...

For the record, I still think the Citadel is where the trial should be conducted. The batarians won't trust the SA to conduct a fair trial in their own territory and many Shepards are still Spectres. Shepard has other crimes besides just the 300,000 dead batarians to answer for and not all of them relate to the System Alliance.

At the same time, I don't think we can rule out Arcturus Station as a distinct possibility, especially in the case of the Council revoking Shepard's Spectre status. They may just have to try Shepard when procedings with the SA are done. If they get the chance.

Has everyone forgotten about the death of Spectre Vasir?

Yes, and it makes just as much sense for both Spectre and non-Spectre Shepards to be tried on the Citadel by both the Old and New Council.

However, making slightly different intro (for different imports) would have been a nice touch, since it's one of the meta-game reasons for the trial device anyway: sort of "Previously on Mass Effect". I couldn't be very costly as the Arcturus "court room" could have been just a reworked and retextured Citadel "court room" more heavily populated by Humans / Alliance officials.

After the both versions of the trial Shep could go to the same Alliance-operated penal colony planet, where the shooting would start.

But... oh, well.

[GreenDragon37]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

How sincere was the Council, however? They spent the last 2 years tearing you apart. They didn't seem very sincere when they re-instated you, they just wanted you to go back to the Terminus, like you were still dead.

Whether or not the woman at the DMV was sincere when she said I'd be a good driver when she handed me my driver's license is irrelevant.  I have my driver's license.  

All that means though is that a reinstated Spectre Shepard is a reinstated Spectre Shepard.  Whether or not the Council will drop him/her like a bad, hard to manage habit once they hear about the events of Arrival is a different matter entirely.  Would they be concerned about precedent?  Do they care about Shepard personally?  Are they convinced that Shepard is either totally bonkers or maybe onto something with this Reaper thing after all?  We don't know.

I do know my reinstated Spectre Shepard is a reinstated Spectre as of the events of Arrival, and that has legal consequences.

But the point is they can drop it. Just like they did Saren. They can make you go to that trial on Earth. They've left you out to dry before, they can do it again. No doubt they will.

[upsettingshorts]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

1. How do you know they've commited zero acts of terrorism? Even Jacob admits that they are called terrorists for  a good reason. TIM and Miranda are also not above using terrorist tactics. They admit it. They're goal is to get the job done and advance Human progress, whatever it takes.

1) Because I haven't had one described  to me yet.  And part of terrorism is sending a message, so if they're committed acts of terror no-one has heard about, that's either ****** poor terrorism or not terrorism at all.  They're called that for good reason because they do kill people, blow things up, and don't apologize for it.  That doesn't make them terrorists, and point to me the dialogue where TIM or Miranda explicitly endorse terrorism.

GreenDragon37 wrote...

3. The only eyewitnesses were a bunch of scared diner guests, and that girl who was taken hostage.

3) And those witnesses do not know the context of the situation.  All they could possibly say is that a wounded Vasir was chased into the room by Shepard, and took hostages.  With the assistance of Liara, Shepard eventually killed Vasir in a gun battle that included mercenaries.  Who was in the right would be hard to say, given just eyewitness testimony.

GreenDragon37 wrote...

But the point is they can drop it. Just like they did Saren. They can make you go to that trial on Earth. They've left you out to dry before, they can do it again. No doubt they will.

That would be where the legal precedent question comes in. 

Why wouldn't people be calling for the end to the Spectre program?  Since one of them you know felt like he/she was justified in destroying a star system for the greater good.

Why wouldn't the Council be worried about future prosecutions for actions taken by Spectres?

Would the Council so easily abandon their right to prosecute and punish Spectres themselves?  Why not simply settle the issue given the authority they already possess?

Of course they can make Spectre Shepard do anything.  But they've got a bit to think about even if they still think Shepard is a wackjob

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 avril 2011 - 05:46 .

[Leonia]

Would the penal colony have an Aussie-sounding name? Because that would be awesome.

[Zulu_DFA]

piemanz wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

If the Alliance higher-ups want the trial on Earth, they can do it. Looks like they are doing it. Simple as that.

OOC, and plot hole. Simple as that.

Again, how is it a plot hole? I think you are only calling "plot hole" because you don't like it!

We have a winner!

No, you don't.

I don't like it because it's a plot hole. Your liking it doesn't make it any less a plot hole.

[Leonia]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

piemanz wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

If the Alliance higher-ups want the trial on Earth, they can do it. Looks like they are doing it. Simple as that.

OOC, and plot hole. Simple as that.

Again, how is it a plot hole? I think you are only calling "plot hole" because you don't like it!

We have a winner!

No, you don't.

I don't like it because it's a plot hole. Your liking it doesn't make it any less a plot hole.

It's kind of like saying "I don't like Cerberus.. they must be terrorists!"

[Zulu_DFA]

leonia42 wrote...

Would the penal colony have an Aussie-sounding name? Because that would be awesome.

Would "Botany Bay" suit you? Provided it'd look much like Noveria on the outside?

[Nashiktal]

Ok I am a bit lost. How is it a plot hole? No seriously, i'm usually on top of these things.

Is it because the Alliance is a separate entity from Earth entirely? (Operational wise at least)

[Leonia]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Would the penal colony have an Aussie-sounding name? Because that would be awesome.

Would "Botany Bay" suit you? Provided it'd look much like Noveria on the outside?

I could work with that.

[GreenDragon37]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

1. How do you know they've commited zero acts of terrorism? Even Jacob admits that they are called terrorists for  a good reason. TIM and Miranda are also not above using terrorist tactics. They admit it. They're goal is to get the job done and advance Human progress, whatever it takes.

1) Because I haven't had one described  to me yet.  And part of terrorism is sending a message, so if they're committed acts of terror no-one has heard about, that's either ****** poor terrorism or not terrorism at all.  They're called that for good reason because they do kill people, blow things up, and don't apologize for it.  That doesn't make them terrorists, and point to me the dialogue where TIM or Miranda explicitly endorse terrorism.

GreenDragon37 wrote...

3. The only eyewitnesses were a bunch of scared diner guests, and that girl who was taken hostage.

3) And those witnesses do not know the context of the situation.  All they could possibly say is that a wounded Vasir was chased into the room by Shepard, and took hostages.  With the assistance of Liara, Shepard eventually killed Vasir in a gun battle that included mercenaries.  Who was in the right would be hard to say, given just eyewitness testimony.

1. From the Mass Effect wiki:

http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Cerberus

"Cerberus[/b] is a human-survivalist paramilitary group led by the enigmatic Illusive Man. Cerberus' core belief is that humans deserve a greater role in the galactic community, and that the Systems Alliance is too hamstrung by law and public opinion to stand up effectively to the Citadel races. Any methods of advancing humanity's ascension are justified, including illegal or dangerous experimentation, terrorist activities, sabotage and assassination. Cerberus operatives accept that these methods are brutal, but believe history will vindicate them. Nevertheless, both the Systems Alliance and the Citadel Council have declared Cerberus to be a terrorist organization and will prosecute identified Cerberus agents accordingly. "

3. No-one will get the whole story on Vasir, I suppose. Unless it's from your point of view.

[GreenDragon37]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

piemanz wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

If the Alliance higher-ups want the trial on Earth, they can do it. Looks like they are doing it. Simple as that.

OOC, and plot hole. Simple as that.

Again, how is it a plot hole? I think you are only calling "plot hole" because you don't like it!

We have a winner!

No, you don't.

I don't like it because it's a plot hole. Your liking it doesn't make it any less a plot hole.

You have yet to describe how it is a plot-hole. So far, you are only saying it is, because, again, you don't like the idea of it being on Earth.