1529 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Nashiktal wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Ok I am a bit lost. How is it a plot hole? No seriously, i'm usually on top of these things.

Is it because the Alliance is a separate entity from Earth entirely? (Operational wise at least)

That's right.

That makes more sense. I thought everyone was talking about a different plot hole. 

In this case Zulu is right. The Alliance is the Human governing body as far as galactic matters are concerned. So a human causing such a crime would be tried by the Alliance on an Alliance governing Station/ship. (Wasn't it arcturus or something similar?)

Then again the Trial could be a symbolic thing or something. However then the problem arises on which country would you be tried in... Earth is stull a bunch of independant nations, and I doubt any would want this headache in their country.

That's right once more.

[James2912]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

The actions on the Idenna weren't taken against the quarian people, that was Cerberus trying to reclaim one of their operative's children. Sure, stuff blew up and people died but they never said:

"This is a statement against the quarian people!"

Just because the quarians called Cerberus terrorists for the disruption doesn't mean they actually were terrorists.

The Galactic Empire in Star Wars calls the Rebel Alliance terrorist all the time but they're the good guys, right?

But the Rebel Alliance didn't experiment on childern, did they? Nor did they have a pro-Human supremecy attitude. You can't apply the Rebels from SW to ME. They don't go together.

Experimenting on children is not terrorism, perhaps immoral, but not terrorism... 

[Weskerr]

piemanz wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Ok I am a bit lost. How is it a plot hole? No seriously, i'm usually on top of these things.

Is it because the Alliance is a separate entity from Earth entirely? (Operational wise at least)

That's right.

However, Earth still falls under the banner of the Alliance. They can try Shephard there if they want to.

I thought the Alliance fell under the banner of Earth.

It does.

Okay, so that means that the center of power of humanity is Earth, and not Arcturus Station, unless Shepard is going to be tried in a military court, in which case the leaders of Earth could decide to try him on the Station.

[Almostfaceman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Ok I am a bit lost. How is it a plot hole? No seriously, i'm usually on top of these things.

Is it because the Alliance is a separate entity from Earth entirely? (Operational wise at least)

That's right.

That makes more sense. I thought everyone was talking about a different plot hole. 

In this case Zulu is right. The Alliance is the Human governing body as far as galactic matters are concerned. So a human causing such a crime would be tried by the Alliance on an Alliance governing Station/ship. (Wasn't it arcturus or something similar?)

Then again the Trial could be a symbolic thing or something. However then the problem arises on which country would you be tried in... Earth is stull a bunch of independant nations, and I doubt any would want this headache in their country.

That's right once more.

That's wrong, of course.  From the codex:
Earth is still divided among nation-states, though all are affiliated beneath the overarching banner of the Systems Alliance.

There is obviously some neutral ground, like the modern-day U.N. where the Alliance facilitates being the overarching banner for the nation states.  Hold the trial there.  Problem solved.

[piemanz]

Weskerr wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Ok I am a bit lost. How is it a plot hole? No seriously, i'm usually on top of these things.

Is it because the Alliance is a separate entity from Earth entirely? (Operational wise at least)

That's right.

However, Earth still falls under the banner of the Alliance. They can try Shephard there if they want to.

I thought the Alliance fell under the banner of Earth.

It does.

Okay, so that means that the center of power of humanity is Earth, and not Arcturus Station, unless Shepard is going to be tried in a military court, in which case the leaders of Earth could decide to try him on the Station.

Exactly.The trial can be held on Earth or Arcturus either is fine.But some people seem to think for some absurd reason holding the trial on earth is a plot hole.

The mind boggles.

[upsettingshorts]

Almostfaceman wrote...

There is obviously some neutral ground, like the modern-day U.N. where the Alliance facilitates being the overarching banner for the nation states.  Hold the trial there.  Problem solved.

Like.. Arcturus Station?

[Almostfaceman]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

There is obviously some neutral ground, like the modern-day U.N. where the Alliance facilitates being the overarching banner for the nation states.  Hold the trial there.  Problem solved.

Like.. Arcturus Station?

Like... the U.N. building?

[upsettingshorts]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Like... the U.N. building?

The headquarters of the United Nations is... the UN Building.  The headquarters of the Systems Alliance is... Arcturus Station.

However, the ICC would probably handle such a trial in the real world.  And it's based in The Hague.  So who knows.

It's not a plot hole though as the canon has never explicitly said where such trials would take place, so any decisions made in ME3 or wherever as to the venue wouldn't have anything to contradict. 

[Zulu_DFA]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Ok I am a bit lost. How is it a plot hole? No seriously, i'm usually on top of these things.

Is it because the Alliance is a separate entity from Earth entirely? (Operational wise at least)

That's right.

However, Earth still falls under the banner of the Alliance. They can try Shephard there if they want to.

To want to try Sheaprd on Earth they need a very good reason. That reason needs to be explicitely explained by the narrative. Sounding like Smudboy here, but that's what you get, when there are obvious plot holes in a Mass Effect game.

So far, no such reason has been presented, but Hackett has already stated that Shepard will have to go to Earth for the trial. The plot hole is already here.

piemanz wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

I thought the Alliance fell under the banner of Earth.

It does.

No, it doesn't. The Alliance became independent of the "banner of Earth" after the First Contact War.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 avril 2011 - 06:24 .

[Almostfaceman]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Like... the U.N. building?

The headquarters of the United Nations is... the UN Building.  The headquarters of the Systems Alliance is... Arcturus Station.

However, the ICC would probably handle such a trial in the real world.  And it's based in The Hague.  So who knows.

It's not a plot hole though as the canon has never explicitly said where such trials would take place, so any decisions made in ME3 or wherever as to the venue wouldn't have anything to contradict. 

No.  It's ridiculous to assume there's not a location ON EARTH that the Alliance can facilitate its functions.  The codex clearly states that some nations states are very poor.  They cannot be disenfranchised.

I agree, it's not a plot hole.

[Thompson family]

Sorry for the earlier misinterpretation of your point, Zulu_DFA. but now that I've properly had it explained to me and have reviewed Hackett's "come when Earth call" warning -- well, I'm sorry, but this one is simply not up to your usual standard of argument.

The Security Council of the United Nations sits in New York, USA. The seat of the World Court is in The Hague, Netherlands. Similarly, the seat of the government of the United States is in Washington, D.C. That also happens to be the home of the U.S.Supreme Court and of the Pentagon, but all sorts of trials, or military tribunals and court martials, are held all over the world.

Likewise, the seat of the Alliance government (and Alliance Military HQ, apparently?)  is at the station, as you corrected me. But the venue of the relevant court could easily be -- and apparently is -- back on Earth in this case.

You're a talented fault-finder, Zulu_DFA, but you're definitely trying too hard on this one.

Modifié par Thompson family, 01 avril 2011 - 06:16 .

[Nashiktal]

piemanz wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Ok I am a bit lost. How is it a plot hole? No seriously, i'm usually on top of these things.

Is it because the Alliance is a separate entity from Earth entirely? (Operational wise at least)

That's right.

However, Earth still falls under the banner of the Alliance. They can try Shephard there if they want to.

I thought the Alliance fell under the banner of Earth.

It does.

Okay, so that means that the center of power of humanity is Earth, and not Arcturus Station, unless Shepard is going to be tried in a military court, in which case the leaders of Earth could decide to try him on the Station.

Exactly.The trial can be held on Earth or Arcturus either is fine.But some people seem to think for some absurd reason holding the trial on earth is a plot hole.

The mind boggles.

The problem that arises is which country would bear the responsibility of holding the trial? We are talking about a trial that doesn't concern Earth itself, but a matter that involves endangering most of the human colonies (where the Alliance gains all its resources from that feeds Earth's resource glut) that are spread around the galaxy. (and the terminous systems. Where in funky space terms Borders Batarian space.)

As this is an entirely Human matter, and not Earth, it would only make sense to have the trial at the HUMAN center of government, Arcturus. This isn't an American, Africa, etc matter. 

It won't kill the game if its set there, its just wierd for us Mass Effect fans that actually get in depth with the fluff.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 01 avril 2011 - 06:19 .

[piemanz]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Ok I am a bit lost. How is it a plot hole? No seriously, i'm usually on top of these things.

Is it because the Alliance is a separate entity from Earth entirely? (Operational wise at least)

That's right.

However, Earth still falls under the banner of the Alliance. They can try Shephard there if they want to.

To want to try Sheaprd on Earth they need a very good reason. That reason needs to be explicitely explained by the narrative. Sounding like Smudboy, here, but that's what you get, when there are obvious plotholes in a Mass Effect game.

So far, no such reason has been presented, but Hackett has already stated that Shepard will have to go to Earth for the trial. The plot hole is already here.

piemanz wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

I thought the Alliance fell under the banner of Earth.

It does.

No, it doesn't. The Alliance became independent of the "banner of Earth" after the First Contact War.

The Alliance is a human entity and Earth is the human homeworld.Is that so hard to understand?

Modifié par piemanz, 01 avril 2011 - 06:18 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Like... the U.N. building?

The headquarters of the United Nations is... the UN Building.  The headquarters of the Systems Alliance is... Arcturus Station.

That's right

Upsettingshorts wrote...

However, the ICC would probably handle such a trial in the real world.  And it's based in The Hague.  So who knows.

Just saying: the US military personnel are exempt from the ICC juridiction. No-one can bring a US soldier to the ICC, even if he goes rogue and drops an H-bomb on some city he doesn't like. He will be tried by a US court martial under the US law.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's not a plot hole though as the canon has never explicitly said where such trials would take place, so any decisions made in ME3 or wherever as to the venue wouldn't have anything to contradict. 

Spectre status, man, spectre status!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 avril 2011 - 06:23 .

[WolfShapedBullet]

Weskerr wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Ok I am a bit lost. How is it a plot hole? No seriously, i'm usually on top of these things.

Is it because the Alliance is a separate entity from Earth entirely? (Operational wise at least)

That's right.

However, Earth still falls under the banner of the Alliance. They can try Shephard there if they want to.

I thought the Alliance fell under the banner of Earth.

It does.

Okay, so that means that the center of power of humanity is Earth, and not Arcturus Station, unless Shepard is going to be tried in a military court, in which case the leaders of Earth could decide to try him on the Station.

■If you choose to say that Hackett should be thanking you, Hackett says that is isn't a matter of preference, and Shepard would make a convenient scapegoat to avoid open war.

I guess the question to answer is: War with who? Systems Alliance or Humanity as a whole?

Answer: Humanity=The Systems Alliance : is the representative body of Earth and all human colonies in Citadel space.

The Systems Alliance resides at the Arcturus Station. While it would make perfect sense to hold the trial there, the Systems Alliance is holding it at Earth, as Hackett states. Because they (as the writers decided) decided to conduct it there.

The only question now is whether or not the Council will strip Shepard of their Spectre title, or look the other way as Humanity handles its own problems.

Modifié par Oblivionous, 01 avril 2011 - 06:27 .

[Weskerr]

I agree with Zulu_DFA though on this concerning the absurdity of holding a trial for Shepard at all. For the same reasons the OP pointed out but also because it's just plain stupid to sabotage your greatest asset to stopping the Reapers just as they are about to invade. Hackett did say to Shepard that the Alliance is aware of the Reapers and their plan to invade the galaxy. Why hold a trial now, of all the bad times to do so? Anyway, is Shepard even apart of the Alliance anymore anyway? Isn't he sort of just a free-lancing mercenary now (after the Collector Base mission)? Is the Alliance going to forcibly capture him? Can they?

[MortalEngines]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
The headquarters of the United Nations is... the UN Building.  The headquarters of the Systems Alliance is... Arcturus Station.

However, the ICC would probably handle such a trial in the real world.  And it's based in The Hague.  So who knows.

It's not a plot hole though as the canon has never explicitly said where such trials would take place, so any decisions made in ME3 or wherever as to the venue wouldn't have anything to contradict. 

Here's the thing though, we know that Alliance Military headquarters is Arcturus Station. However, that doesn't mean that they ever actually hold trials there, I've never heardany indication that they do*. Just like the Pentagon is the headquaters of the US military and Intelligence, doesn't mean that trials are held there, instead they are held in a court somewhere else.

* They may hold Court Martial, which seeing as Shepard is in the Alliance anymore wouldn't work.

[Nashiktal]

piemanz wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Ok I am a bit lost. How is it a plot hole? No seriously, i'm usually on top of these things.

Is it because the Alliance is a separate entity from Earth entirely? (Operational wise at least)

That's right.

However, Earth still falls under the banner of the Alliance. They can try Shephard there if they want to.

To want to try Sheaprd on Earth they need a very good reason. That reason needs to be explicitely explained by the narrative. Sounding like Smudboy, here, but that's what you get, when there are obvious plotholes in a Mass Effect game.

So far, no such reason has been presented, but Hackett has already stated that Shepard will have to go to Earth for the trial. The plot hole is already here.

piemanz wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

I thought the Alliance fell under the banner of Earth.

It does.

No, it doesn't. The Alliance became independent of the "banner of Earth" after the First Contact War.

The Alliance is a human entity and Earth is the human homeworld.Is that so hard to understand?

Earth has no power on a galactic level. In simple terms... Earth is like the largest state in the galactic "country." However it is not the center. All Earth does is send out coloniests from its overpopulated self, and take resources supplied by the colonies.

The Alliance is the Human government. Earth is just a "colony" with several nations on it. Understand?

[Almostfaceman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...


No, it doesn't. The Alliance became independent of the "banner of Earth" after the First Contact War.

Nope. From the codex.

The Systems Alliance is the representative body of Earth and all human colonies in Citadel space. Backed by Earth's most powerful nations, the Alliance has become humanity's military, exploratory, and economic spearhead. While the Alliance is relatively new to the galactic community, it has already made a name for itself, gaining humans an embassy on the Presidium. The Alliance is governed by a parliament based at Arcturus Station; the station also serves as the Alliance's capital.

The Alliance is NOT independent, it is a representative of Earth.  Also from the codex:

The homeworld and capital of humanity is entering a new golden age. The resource wealth of a dozen settled colonies and a hundred industrial outposts flows back to Earth, fueling great works of industry, commerce, and art. 

[Almostfaceman]

Nashiktal wrote...

The Alliance is the Human government. Earth is just a "colony" with several nations on it. Understand?

Wrongo, the Alliance is a representative of Earth.  Earth has 11 billion people on it.  That representative vote holds far more sway than the next hightest population "colony" of 5 million.  According to the codex, Earth is still considered the central power of humanity:

The homeworld and capital of humanity is entering a new golden age. The resource wealth of a dozen settled colonies and a hundred industrial outposts flows back to Earth, fueling great works of industry, commerce, and art. 

[Weskerr]

Oblivionous wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Ok I am a bit lost. How is it a plot hole? No seriously, i'm usually on top of these things.

Is it because the Alliance is a separate entity from Earth entirely? (Operational wise at least)

That's right.

However, Earth still falls under the banner of the Alliance. They can try Shephard there if they want to.

I thought the Alliance fell under the banner of Earth.

It does.

Okay, so that means that the center of power of humanity is Earth, and not Arcturus Station, unless Shepard is going to be tried in a military court, in which case the leaders of Earth could decide to try him on the Station.

■If you choose to say that Hackett should be thanking you, Hackett says that is isn't a matter of preference, and Shepard would make a convenient scapegoat to avoid open war.

I guess the question to answer is: War with who? Systems Alliance or Humanity as a whole?

Answer: Humanity=The Systems Alliance[/b] [/b]:[/b] [/b]is the representative body of Earth and all human colonies in Citadel space.

The Systems Alliance resides at the Arcturus Station. While it would make perfect sense to hold the trial there, the Systems Alliance is holding it at Earth, as Hackett states. Because they (as the writers decided) decided to conduct it there.

The only question now is whether or not the Council will strip Shepard of their title, or look the other way as Humanity handles its own problems.

Good point about Sheparad being a scapegoat. After all, 300,000 of the Batarian's citizens/slaves/indentured servants were just murdered. They're going to want to retaliate against whoever was responsible. Still, Shepard was sent by Hackett on a secret mission precisely because he did not want the Batarians to know that the Alliance was involved. By putting Shepard on trial, isn't the Alliance admitting openly that one of their own was responsible for killing a third of a million Batarians? That's what they didn't want the Batarians to know in the first place.

[piemanz]

Nashiktal wrote...

Earth has no power on a galactic level. In simple terms... Earth is like the largest state in the galactic "country." However it is not the center. All Earth does is send out coloniests from its overpopulated self, and take resources supplied by the colonies.

The Alliance is the Human government. Earth is just a "colony" with several nations on it. Understand?

Earth is just a colony?....Unbeleivable

Again, we're not talking about a normal person here we're talking about shepard, the saviour of the citadel, first human spectre etc. etc.

This will be a huge trial so it makes sense that it's conducted on the human homeworld.Sure it would also make sense to hold it on Arcturas but to say holding it on earth is a plot hole is just insane.

Modifié par piemanz, 01 avril 2011 - 06:31 .

[Weskerr]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...


No, it doesn't. The Alliance became independent of the "banner of Earth" after the First Contact War.

Nope. From the codex.

The Systems Alliance is the representative body of Earth and all human colonies in Citadel space. Backed by Earth's most powerful nations, the Alliance has become humanity's military, exploratory, and economic spearhead. While the Alliance is relatively new to the galactic community, it has already made a name for itself, gaining humans an embassy on the Presidium. The Alliance is governed by a parliament based at Arcturus Station; the station also serves as the Alliance's capital.

The Alliance is NOT independent, it is a representative of Earth.  Also from the codex:

The homeworld and capital of humanity is entering a new golden age. The resource wealth of a dozen settled colonies and a hundred industrial outposts flows back to Earth, fueling great works of industry, commerce, and art. 

Never underestimate the power of references! Nice job! This basically settles this question.

[Zulu_DFA]

Almostfaceman wrote...

The Alliance is NOT independent, it is a representative of Earth.  Also from the codex:

And the Turian Hierarchy is a representative of the Vol Protectorate. Here you have it, my man. Earth, or rather, various Earth's nations, are client stated of the Systems Alliance. You see, the Alliance is up there, Earth is down here. Makes no sense to try Shepard back on Earth if you want galactic publicity.

[Nashiktal]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

The Alliance is the Human government. Earth is just a "colony" with several nations on it. Understand?

Wrongo, the Alliance is a representative of Earth.  Earth has 11 billion people on it.  That representative vote holds far more sway than the next hightest population "colony" of 5 million.  According to the codex, Earth is still considered the central power of humanity:

The homeworld and capital of humanity is entering a new golden age. The resource wealth of a dozen settled colonies and a hundred industrial outposts flows back to Earth, fueling great works of industry, commerce, and art. 

You seem to be misunderstanding. Earth is the homeworld, but is actually of little "literal"  importance. Earth is a symbol, but otherwise doesnt do much for Earth as a whole. to the Alliance Earth is one big whiny colony, that doesnt even have a unified voice.

The only resource Earth produces is manpower. That is it. All the resources, all the wealth, all the power comes from the colonies. Earth is like the biggest sibling. It gets the best allowence because of that.

However Earth is still several different INDIVIDUAL nations. Earth is the only homeworld to not have a unified people. The Alliance represents Earth and the colonies. The Alliance is the Human government. Earth is the precious cradle, but the only thing you would lose from earth is the manpower it provides. If the Earth were to suddenly go missing, the Alliance would not only survive but might actually thrive as well since it no longer has to feed Earths glut.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 01 avril 2011 - 06:33 .