1529 réponses à ce sujet

[Leonia]

I think, Almostfaceman, you are getting the roles of Earth and the Alliance mixed up. If you just swap your perceptions on which is which then you might see things more clearly.

[Nashiktal]

Weskerr wrote...


You could have saved from smacking yourself in the face if you understood my point. Zulu was making an analogy between Earth and the Alliance and Britain and the original 13 American colonies. He made this analogy because he wanted to point out that it's possible for a branch-off of a major power to become a major power in and of itself, and also grow more powerful than the power it originally branched from. 

Now, I was pointing out that this analogy doesn't hold because the Alliance is not an independent power, like the 13 American colonies eventually became. It's still answerable to the powers of Earth, which by and large are the most powerful members of the Alliance. Without Earth, there would be no Alliance.

Wrong. The Alliance separated itself from Earth, made its own government, and went about its business of being the galactic represenative of humanity. You would know this if you had read the codex entries Zulu posted a page back.

Almostfaceman wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Divided, but working together through the Alliance.

And that's why the Alliance at Arcterus should trial Shepard, Earth has nothing to do with galactic politics except for being an icon and supplying the Alliance. Shepard being trialed by the United States or whatever just doesn't work when the crime is something that happened with the Batarians and he's being trialed by the SA.

Earth isn't that important when you consider the scale of galactic politics.

Wrong, the Alliance IS Earth working together.  Earth was first, and birthed the Alliance.  Again, you can't say that Earth isn't important regarding politics because that contradicts exactly what the codex says about Mass Effect state of affairs:

The homeworld and capital of humanity is entering a new golden age. The resource wealth of a dozen settled colonies and a hundred industrial outposts flows back to Earth, fueling great works of industry, commerce, and art. 

Now if Earth isn't important anymore, how are they getting their hands on resources from the outposts?  Why does the codex call it the homeworld and capital?  Earth is the political center, Arcturus is an administrative capital for the Alliance - and the Alliance is the divided nations working together.  Colonies and outposts come from Earth.

Again you fail at reading. Go back and read the codex entries Zulu posted a page back. I even bolded important areas to read for skimmers. Now go educate yourself on ME history.

[Dave of Canada]

Almostfaceman wrote...

The homeworld and capital of humanity is entering a new golden age. The resource wealth of a dozen settled colonies and a hundred industrial outposts flows back to Earth, fueling great works of industry, commerce, and art.

You can quote that as much as you like, it's still not making your point.

[Almostfaceman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Reaf this:

Arcturus Station is the gateway to Sol, a 5-kilometer diameter space station at the trailing Lagrange
point of the gas giant Themis. Construction on Arcturus Station began in 2151 and concluded in 2162. It
was inaugurated in 2156, and has served as the military and political headquarters of the Systems
Alliance from the First Contact War until the present.

The codex still calls Earth the capital of humanity.

And the Codex still calls the Arcturus Station the capital of the Systems Alliance.

The Alliance certainly doesn't derive its power from the tiny colonies

Certainly.

it gets its power from Earth.  

No. The Systems Alliance draws its power from the military might, strategic positioning and the economic expediency.

Earth established Arcturus station.

And the Systems Alliance claimed it, after it kicked the Turain butt on Shanxi without Earth's sanction.

It has no military might without Earth.  Shanxi was simply an illustration of Earth's idea of an Alliance working despite political problems.  The Alliance still derives its military might from Earth.

[Nashiktal]

No military might without Earth? Then how did they kick the Turians out of Shanxi?

[GuardianAngel470]

leonia42 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

If the Batarians see Shepard on trial by humans, on the human homeworld, surrounded by other humans, they'll feel a lot more appeased than if they did it on Arturus, to them most likely a meaningless space station.

You're all broiled in the legality and correctness of holding it one place or another and missing the intent.

Don't you think the batarians are worried that Shepard being tried by humans on human turf is just begging for a mistrial?

They would rather try Shepard on Kar'shan with their own court system. They can't know for certain that the humans will play fair. Besides, the crime happened in batarian space, not Alliance or Council space.

Ideally, the Citadel, a neutral ground, should be used.

Yeah, I do. But this argument that I'm seeing on the last couple of pages has been about Arcturus vs Earth. Of the two, Earth satisfies the goal of appeasing the Batarians.

Next would be the Citadel, but of course the Batarian homeworld would always be their prefered place.

But the purpose isn't so much to give them what they want but to show (or pretend) that the Alliance (and thus humanity as a whole) does not agree with his actions.

The trial would just show the Batarians that humanity condemns Shepard's actions and in doing so prevent the Batarians from going to war with humanity over them. It is to distance Shepard from Humanity, much like the Turians distanced Saren from their race (as evidenced by Garrus' dialog).

[Leonia]

@Almostfaceman: Earth is the past, the Alliance is the future. You gotta move on with the galactic state of affairs man.

@GuardianAngel470: You make some good points and we have gotten mired in technicalities on the last few pages. Some people just aren't going to understrand the state of things I guess, no matter how many times you explain it to them.  Thanks for steering us back on topic

Modifié par leonia42, 01 avril 2011 - 07:17 .

[Almostfaceman]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

The homeworld and capital of humanity is entering a new golden age. The resource wealth of a dozen settled colonies and a hundred industrial outposts flows back to Earth, fueling great works of industry, commerce, and art.

You can quote that as much as you like, it's still not making your point.

You can say it's not making my point all you want, but you saying that is still meaningless without illustrating HOW it is meaningless doesn't invalidate my point.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 01 avril 2011 - 07:16 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Weskerr wrote...

Now, I was pointing out that this analogy doesn't hold because the Alliance is not an independent power, like the 13 American colonies eventually became. It's still answerable to the powers of Earth, which by and large are the most powerful members of the Alliance. Without Earth, there would be no Alliance.

The Alliance is independent. It has its own friggin' parliament, that it put together after it had WON A FRIGGIN' WAR without a command from Earth to go to it.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 avril 2011 - 07:18 .

[GnusmasTHX]

Nashiktal wrote...

No military might without Earth? Then how did they kick the Turians out of Shanxi?

A bunch of countries decided they wanted to form a space-NATO against aliens. The Systems Alliance was created and funded by a handful of the worlds super powers. Only after Shanxi, and a surge of support did it become a forum for galactic expansion.

[piemanz]

Nashiktal wrote...

No military might without Earth? Then how did they kick the Turians out of Shanxi?

You dont think the fact that everything and everyone they used to do that came from earth is relevant, no?

[Zulu_DFA]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Did you guys miss the purpose of holding the trial at all?

The purpose of the trial is absolutely irrelevant, when it comes to the proceedings.

Just like the purpose of saluting your commanding officer is irrelevant, when it comes to what hand do you do it with.

[Almostfaceman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

Now, I was pointing out that this analogy doesn't hold because the Alliance is not an independent power, like the 13 American colonies eventually became. It's still answerable to the powers of Earth, which by and large are the most powerful members of the Alliance. Without Earth, there would be no Alliance.

The Alliance is independent. It has it's own friggin' parliament, that it put together after it had WON A FRIGGIN' WAR without a command from Earth to go to it.

*sigh*  Dude.  A parliament is a bureaucracy.  It's simply a way for us humans to organize ourselves.  The parliament represents Earth and it's colonies - just like the codex says it does.  I can do this all night.  Its function is to organize cooperation between the Earth states and use the power of that cooperation to achieve military might in space.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 01 avril 2011 - 07:19 .

[Dave of Canada]

Almostfaceman wrote...

You can say it's not making my point all you want, but you saying that is still meaningless without illustrating HOW it is meaningless doesn't invalidate my point.

Because it's been said multiple times by now.

[piemanz]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Did you guys miss the purpose of holding the trial at all?

The purpose of the trial is absolutely irrelevant, when it comes to the proceedings.

Just like the purpose of saluting your commanding officer is irrelevant, when it comes to what hand do you do it with.

Of course it's not irrelevant.If the whole trial is to appease the batarians then the setting and outcome are the 2 most important things.

Modifié par piemanz, 01 avril 2011 - 07:20 .

[Zulu_DFA]

piemanz wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

No military might without Earth? Then how did they kick the Turians out of Shanxi?

You dont think the fact that everything and everyone they used to do that came from earth is relevant, no?

And George Washington was a British officer.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 avril 2011 - 07:24 .

[Nashiktal]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

No military might without Earth? Then how did they kick the Turians out of Shanxi?

A bunch of countries decided they wanted to form a space-NATO against aliens. The Systems Alliance was created and funded by a handful of the worlds super powers. Only after Shanxi, and a surge of support did it become a forum for galactic expansion.

And became independant of Earth. So all those lovely space fleets is now Alliance owned, not Earth. They have their own government for the passing of laws, they have their own fleet, (that Earth doesnt have), and they hold all diplomatic relationships with the other intergalactic communities.

They get all their power from themselves, and they mobilized against the Turians without any official sanction from Earth.

[Almostfaceman]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

You can say it's not making my point all you want, but you saying that is still meaningless without illustrating HOW it is meaningless doesn't invalidate my point.

Because it's been said multiple times by now.

Ok, what don't you get about the codex calling Earth the capital of humanity?

[Weskerr]

Nashiktal wrote...

Again you fail at reading. Go back and read the codex entries Zulu posted a page back. I even bolded important areas to read for skimmers. Now go educate yourself on ME history.

There's really no need for personal insults. This is a discussion thread, not ad hominem central. I missed what he posted but I'll go read it now.

[Nashiktal]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

No military might without Earth? Then how did they kick the Turians out of Shanxi?

You dont think the fact that everything and everyone they used to do that came from earth is relevant, no?

And George Washigton was a British officer.

Earth is the emperor to Japan's Shogun. The Queen to Britains Parliment.

[Almostfaceman]

Nashiktal wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

No military might without Earth? Then how did they kick the Turians out of Shanxi?

A bunch of countries decided they wanted to form a space-NATO against aliens. The Systems Alliance was created and funded by a handful of the worlds super powers. Only after Shanxi, and a surge of support did it become a forum for galactic expansion.

And became independant of Earth. So all those lovely space fleets is now Alliance owned, not Earth. They have their own government for the passing of laws, they have their own fleet, (that Earth doesnt have), and they hold all diplomatic relationships with the other intergalactic communities.

They get all their power from themselves, and they mobilized against the Turians without any official sanction from Earth.

So where did the Alliance get the fleet?

From Earth.

Where does it continue to get its fleet?

From Earth.

[Nashiktal]

Weskerr wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Again you fail at reading. Go back and read the codex entries Zulu posted a page back. I even bolded important areas to read for skimmers. Now go educate yourself on ME history.

There's really no need for personal insults. This is a discussion thread, not ad hominem central. I missed what he posted but I'll go read it now.

That wasn't directed at you. Sorry that you thought so. I was quoting you, and almostfaceman in the same post. 

Also it wasn't an insult, it was a fact that Almostfaceman didn't bother to read.

[Zulu_DFA]

piemanz wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Did you guys miss the purpose of holding the trial at all?

The purpose of the trial is absolutely irrelevant, when it comes to the proceedings.

Just like the purpose of saluting your commanding officer is irrelevant, when it comes to what hand do you do it with.

Of course it's not irrelevant.If the whole trial is to appease the batarians then the setting and outcome are the 2 most important things.

Then why not just club Sheaprd to death at his Torfan/Elysium/Akuze memorial?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 avril 2011 - 07:26 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Did you guys miss the purpose of holding the trial at all?

The purpose of the trial is absolutely irrelevant, when it comes to the proceedings.

Just like the purpose of saluting your commanding officer is irrelevant, when it comes to what hand do you do it with.

That's like saying the purpose of Tali's trial was irrelevant. I mean, who cares about the fact that the Admirals don't actually want justice they just want to further their own goals?

Who cares that Tali is just a scapegoat? Personally, they'd have to kill me before I went in front of that jury. It's a complete waste of time and energy. The reapers are in the galaxy, now is the time for RAPID development not scapgoating.

But the purpose, in this case, is the entire argument. Yes, I agree that the systems alliance headquarters of Arcturus would the most proper place to hold the trial because technically, it is the systems alliance that governs intersetllar policy not Earth.

However, the whole trial is a farce from the get go, explained by Hackett to be a way to avoid war with the Batarians. In that case, it doesn't matter what would be proper, it matters what would appear best to the Batarians.

At the end of the day, Shepard's trial would be just like Tali's trial: A means to further the goals of those behind it.

[Almostfaceman]

Nashiktal wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Again you fail at reading. Go back and read the codex entries Zulu posted a page back. I even bolded important areas to read for skimmers. Now go educate yourself on ME history.

There's really no need for personal insults. This is a discussion thread, not ad hominem central. I missed what he posted but I'll go read it now.

That wasn't directed at you. Sorry that you thought so. I was quoting you, and almostfaceman in the same post. 

Also it wasn't an insult, it was a fact that Almostfaceman didn't bother to read.

No, I read it, and then put it in context with the other codex entry that maintains that Earth is the capital of humanity.  Which you ignore.