1529 réponses à ce sujet

[Nashiktal]

So you hold one codex entry, over four?

[Leonia]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

No military might without Earth? Then how did they kick the Turians out of Shanxi?

A bunch of countries decided they wanted to form a space-NATO against aliens. The Systems Alliance was created and funded by a handful of the worlds super powers. Only after Shanxi, and a surge of support did it become a forum for galactic expansion.

And became independant of Earth. So all those lovely space fleets is now Alliance owned, not Earth. They have their own government for the passing of laws, they have their own fleet, (that Earth doesnt have), and they hold all diplomatic relationships with the other intergalactic communities.

They get all their power from themselves, and they mobilized against the Turians without any official sanction from Earth.

So where did the Alliance get the fleet?

From Earth.

Yes, Earth was where we started. Then we grew up and learned about space and galactic civilisaton and branched out amongst the stars. Now we are led by the System Alliance, of which the Earth is a part of (not the ruler of). You're trying to apply 2011 politics to the year 2186 where things have CHANGED. Earth is no longer the birthplace of every human nor is it the ruling government of humanity.

The fleets come from the colonies now and operate out of Arcturus Station, some of the manpower is supplied by Earth. Hell, even the Grissom Academy isn't on Earth.

Modifié par leonia42, 01 avril 2011 - 07:30 .

[Almostfaceman]

Nashiktal wrote...

So you hold one codex entry, over four?

They have to work together.  It's not one wins, and four lose.

The Alliance got their military might...
from Earth
The Alliance continues to get its military might...
from Earth

[Zulu_DFA]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Did you guys miss the purpose of holding the trial at all?

The purpose of the trial is absolutely irrelevant, when it comes to the proceedings.

Just like the purpose of saluting your commanding officer is irrelevant, when it comes to what hand do you do it with.

That's like saying the purpose of Tali's trial was irrelevant. I mean, who cares about the fact that the Admirals don't actually want justice they just want to further their own goals?

That's right. The purpose of Tali's trial (furhering the Admirals' goals) was irrelevant, when it came to procedure and the it went according to the standard procedure. Which, BTW, didn't retcon anything of what Tali said about the Admiralty Board back in ME1.

[Almostfaceman]

leonia42 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

No military might without Earth? Then how did they kick the Turians out of Shanxi?

A bunch of countries decided they wanted to form a space-NATO against aliens. The Systems Alliance was created and funded by a handful of the worlds super powers. Only after Shanxi, and a surge of support did it become a forum for galactic expansion.

And became independant of Earth. So all those lovely space fleets is now Alliance owned, not Earth. They have their own government for the passing of laws, they have their own fleet, (that Earth doesnt have), and they hold all diplomatic relationships with the other intergalactic communities.

They get all their power from themselves, and they mobilized against the Turians without any official sanction from Earth.

So where did the Alliance get the fleet?

From Earth.

Where does it continue to get its fleet?

From Earth.

Yes, Earth was where we started. Then we grew up and learned about space and galactic civilisaton and branched out amongst the stars. Now we are led by the System Alliance, of which the Earth is a part of (not the ruler of). You're trying to apply 2011 politics to the year 2186 where things have CHANGED. Earth is no longer the birthplace of every human nor is it the ruling government of humanity.

Nothing has changed if the power is still flowing from Earth.  The Alliance does not exist in a vacuum, and it does not attain its military might from the colonies and outposts yet.  That can change later.  It hasn't at this point in the story.  As the codex states.

[GuardianAngel470]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

Now, I was pointing out that this analogy doesn't hold because the Alliance is not an independent power, like the 13 American colonies eventually became. It's still answerable to the powers of Earth, which by and large are the most powerful members of the Alliance. Without Earth, there would be no Alliance.

The Alliance is independent. It has it's own friggin' parliament, that it put together after it had WON A FRIGGIN' WAR without a command from Earth to go to it.

*sigh*  Dude.  A parliament is a bureaucracy.  It's simply a way for us humans to organize ourselves.  The parliament represents Earth and it's colonies - just like the codex says it does.  I can do this all night.  Its function is to organize cooperation between the Earth states and use the power of that cooperation to achieve military might in space.

@Zulu, The EU has it's own parlaiment, does that make it a sovereign country not governed by the lower states?

The US government has it's Congress but, at least constitutionally, the States are free to do much of what they want. A state like Vermont can make gay marriage legal while a state like California can deny it to its citizens. The federal government cannot rightfully step in and say that what California did is unconstitutional without passing an ammendment that is voted on by the California representatives in the House and Senate.

[GuardianAngel470]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Did you guys miss the purpose of holding the trial at all?

The purpose of the trial is absolutely irrelevant, when it comes to the proceedings.

Just like the purpose of saluting your commanding officer is irrelevant, when it comes to what hand do you do it with.

That's like saying the purpose of Tali's trial was irrelevant. I mean, who cares about the fact that the Admirals don't actually want justice they just want to further their own goals?

That's right. The purpose of Tali's trial (furhering the Admirals' goals) was irrelevant, when it came to procedure and the it went according to the standard procedure. Which, BTW, didn't retcon anything of what Tali said about the Admiralty Board back in ME1.

Except when you call them on it, you both violate procedure and win.

[Nashiktal]

 
The Systems Alliance is an independent supranational government representing the interests of
humanity as a whole. The Alliance is responsible for the governance and defense of all extra-solar
colonies and space stations.
 

Still, the Alliance was often disregarded by those on Earth until the First Contact War. While the national
governments dithered and bickered over who should lead the effort to liberate Shanxi, the Alliance 
struck decisively. Post-War public approval gave the Alliance the credibility to establish its own
Parliament and become the galactic face of humanity.
[/b]
 
 

 A political-economic pact for collective colonial security, the Alliance is the central galactic institution of
human society.

The Alliance gained associate membership to the Citadel Council in 2165 and assumed
leadership in 2183, with former Ambassador Donnel Udina or Captain David Anderson (depending on
Shepard's choice) presiding.


=== Stations: Arcturus Station ===

 has served as the military and political headquarters of the Systems
Alliance from the First Contact War until the present.
  
With three primary mass relays in addition to the secondary one to Sol, Arcturus is a major
communications and military chokepoint.  (Alliance also controls access to and from Earth. Earth is at the mercy of Arcturus if it wants resources from the colonies) The Alliance 1st Fleet is based in Arcturus, where it can guard
the gates to Sol and react to incursions in the three connected clusters. The Station also hosts the
Systems Alliance Parliament and the Systems Alliance Military general headquarters. Its permanent
population is approximately 45,000.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 01 avril 2011 - 07:34 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

So you hold one codex entry, over four?

They have to work together.  It's not one wins, and four lose.

The Alliance got their military might...
from Earth
The Alliance continues to get its military might...
from Earth

Sorry, pal, again you lose:


=== Starships: Dreadnought ===

...

The Turian fleet presently has 37 dreadnoughts; the Asari, 21; and the Salarians, 16. Humanity has six
with an additional hull under construction at Arcturus Station.

The Alliance gets its military power from itself now.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 avril 2011 - 07:35 .

[Almostfaceman]

Nashiktal wrote...


 
The Systems Alliance is an independent supranational government representing the interests of
humanity as a whole. The Alliance is responsible for the governance and defense of all extra-solar
colonies and space stations. [/b]
 

Still, the Alliance was often disregarded by those on Earth until the First Contact War. While the national
governments dithered and bickered over who should lead the effort to liberate Shanxi, the Alliance 
struck decisively. Post-War public approval gave the Alliance the credibility to establish its own
Parliament and become the galactic face of humanity.
[/b]
 
 

 A political-economic pact for collective colonial security, the Alliance is the central galactic institution of
human society.

The Alliance gained associate membership to the Citadel Council in 2165 and assumed
leadership in 2183, with former Ambassador Donnel Udina or Captain David Anderson (depending on
Shepard's choice) presiding.


=== Stations: Arcturus Station ===

 has served as the military and political headquarters of the Systems
Alliance from the First Contact War until the present.
  
With three primary mass relays in addition to the secondary one to Sol, Arcturus is a major
communications and military chokepoint.  (Alliance also controls access to and from Earth. Earth is at the mercy of Arcturus if it wants resources from the colonies) The Alliance 1st Fleet is based in Arcturus, where it can guard
the gates to Sol and react to incursions in the three connected clusters. The Station also hosts the
Systems Alliance Parliament and the Systems Alliance Military general headquarters. Its permanent
population is approximately 45,000.

Right, this government serves earth, as is stated in the codex.  Soldiers, ships, guns, ammo, doctors, food, toys, etc. do not magically spring forth from the metal floors of Arcturus station.  They come from Earth.  As the colonies orginate from Earth, and as the outposts originate from Earth.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 01 avril 2011 - 07:36 .

[Dave of Canada]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Ok, what don't you get about the codex calling Earth the capital of humanity?

And that's all it is.

Earth is an icon, humans as a whole feel kinship with it because it's their homeworld but it isn't any more important than that. If you want to involve yourself with aliens, who do you contact? Systems Alliance, not Earth. Earth has no importance in the affairs of the galaxy, it only supplies the Systems Alliance which does have affairs in the galaxy.

Who does the Council relay their information to? The Systems Alliance.
When the humans have to help the Council, who helps? The Systems Alliance.
When the Turians want to assist in building ships, who do they contact? The Systems Alliance.

The Systems Alliance is independent, they are related to Earth by heritage / symbolism and supplies only. The codex also says that all of Earth is still divided, so who controls the Systems Alliance? Nobody, it's the United Nations of the Mass Effect universe. Unless you're trying to tell me that modern day Earth is united together because we've formed the United Nations for political reasons.

If Shepard is brought to Earth, who will trial him? United States? Canada? Japan? They have no involvement with galactic politics, the Council isn't approached because Japan has financial problems or because the States is having problems with something.

[Almostfaceman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

So you hold one codex entry, over four?

They have to work together.  It's not one wins, and four lose.

The Alliance got their military might...
from Earth
The Alliance continues to get its military might...
from Earth

Sorry, pal, again you lose:


=== Starships: Dreadnought ===

...

The Turian fleet presently has 37 dreadnoughts; the Asari, 21; and the Salarians, 16. Humanity has six
with an additional hull under construction at Arcturus Station.

The Alliance gets its military power from itself now.

No, Earth stations its ships and perhaps builds them at Arcturus, but this does not mean the resources, men, tools, blah blah blah to make the ships magically appear from nowhere.  They come from Earth.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 01 avril 2011 - 07:40 .

[Almostfaceman]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Ok, what don't you get about the codex calling Earth the capital of humanity?

And that's all it is.

Earth is an icon, humans as a whole feel kinship with it because it's their homeworld but it isn't any more important than that. If you want to involve yourself with aliens, who do you contact? Systems Alliance, not Earth. Earth has no importance in the affairs of the galaxy, it only supplies the Systems Alliance which does have affairs in the galaxy.

Who does the Council relay their information to? The Systems Alliance.
When the humans have to help the Council, who helps? The Systems Alliance.
When the Turians want to assist in building ships, who do they contact? The Systems Alliance.

The Systems Alliance is independent, they are related to Earth by heritage / symbolism and supplies only. The codex also says that all of Earth is still divided, so who controls the Systems Alliance? Nobody, it's the United Nations of the Mass Effect universe. Unless you're trying to tell me that modern day Earth is united together because we've formed the United Nations for political reasons.

If Shepard is brought to Earth, who will trial him? United States? Canada? Japan? They have no involvement with galactic politics, the Council isn't approached because Japan has financial problems or because the States is having problems with something.

The Alliance will trial them.  The Alliance represents the nations of Earth.  Hackett says clearly the trial will be on Earth.  There you have it.

[Nashiktal]

Lets break it down...

The Systems Alliance is an independent supranational government

representing the interests of
humanity as a whole.

The Alliance is responsible for the governance and defense of all extra-solar
colonies and space stations

Established its own independant parliment

is the central galactic institution of
human society.

The ALLIANCE not Earth is part of the Council.

The Alliance controls all access to the sol system, so it also controls the flow of resources. It also builds ships at its own independent stations, and possibly other colonies.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 01 avril 2011 - 07:41 .

[Zulu_DFA]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
@Zulu, The EU has it's own parlaiment, does that make it a sovereign country not governed by the lower states?

If it was the NATO brass who established that parliament after repelling a Soviet invasion while the Western polititcians bickered and dickered over whether they should repel it or not, damn sure a "NATO Union" would have become an independent nation.

[Almostfaceman]

Nashiktal wrote...

The Systems Alliance is an independent supranational government

representing the interests of
humanity as a whole.

The Alliance is responsible for the governance and defense of all extra-solar
colonies and space stations

Established its own independant parliment

is the central galactic institution of
human society.

The ALLIANCE not Earth is part of the Council.

The Alliance controls all access to the sol system, so it also controls the flow of resources. It also builds ships at its own independent stations, and possibly other colonies.

Again, the Alliance is just a government of Earth, created by Earth, to let the divided nations of Earth work together to project power in space.

The Alliance does not exist in a vacuum.  They depend on Earth, which makes sense, because it's Earth's plan in the first place to work together.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 01 avril 2011 - 07:43 .

[Leonia]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

So you hold one codex entry, over four?

They have to work together.  It's not one wins, and four lose.

The Alliance got their military might...
from Earth
The Alliance continues to get its military might...
from Earth

Sorry, pal, again you lose:


=== Starships: Dreadnought ===

...

The Turian fleet presently has 37 dreadnoughts; the Asari, 21; and the Salarians, 16. Humanity has six
with an additional hull under construction at Arcturus Station.

The Alliance gets its military power from itself now.

No, Earth stations its ships and perhaps builds them at Arcturus, but this does not mean the resources, men, tools, blah blah blah to make the ships magically appear from nowhere.  They come from Earth.

So no resources at all come from the colonies? It's just all about Earth huh?

[Nashiktal]

Depend on Earth? For what? All the resources come from colonies.

Also the Earth nations are not working together. The alliance came from their various space programs, but the nations are no longer tied to the Aliiance outside of being part of humanity as a whole.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 01 avril 2011 - 07:44 .

[Almostfaceman]

leonia42 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

So you hold one codex entry, over four?

They have to work together.  It's not one wins, and four lose.

The Alliance got their military might...
from Earth
The Alliance continues to get its military might...
from Earth

Sorry, pal, again you lose:


=== Starships: Dreadnought ===

...

The Turian fleet presently has 37 dreadnoughts; the Asari, 21; and the Salarians, 16. Humanity has six
with an additional hull under construction at Arcturus Station.

The Alliance gets its military power from itself now.

No, Earth stations its ships and perhaps builds them at Arcturus, but this does not mean the resources, men, tools, blah blah blah to make the ships magically appear from nowhere.  They come from Earth.

So no resources at all come from the colonies? It's just all about Earth huh?

Of course not, but read again the codex - earth is the central hub - resources from the colonies and outposts flow into earth.  The vast majority - right now - of resources comes from humanity's largest population and resource - Earth.

[Zulu_DFA]

Nashiktal wrote...

Lets break it down...

The Systems Alliance is an independent supranational government

representing the interests of
humanity as a whole.

The Alliance is responsible for the governance and defense of all extra-solar
colonies and space stations

Established its own independant parliment

is the central galactic institution of
human society.

The ALLIANCE not Earth is part of the Council.

The Alliance controls all access to the sol system, so it also controls the flow of resources. It also builds ships at its own independent stations, and possibly other colonies.

But Earth is the Capital of Humanity!!!

Divided between various nation-states!!!

Under the overarching banner of the Systems Alliance!!!

[Dave of Canada]

Almostfaceman wrote...

The Alliance will trial them.  The Alliance represents the nations of Earth.  Hackett says clearly the trial will be on Earth.  There you have it.

The Alliance represents humanity as a whole in space.
Shepard does something that impacts another species and is considered a crime that should be punished for.
Shepard should be trialed in space by the people in charge for humanity in space.
Not by Earth which has no ties to the Systems Alliance except for supplies and has no ties to space or humanity as a whole.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 avril 2011 - 07:45 .

[Leonia]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Of course not, but read again the
codex - earth is the central hub - resources from the colonies and
outposts flow into earth.  The vast majority - right now - of resources
comes from humanity's largest population and resource - Earth.

The Earth codex entry makes no such claims about where the majority of resources come from. Now you're just making stuff up.

Also, I think an Udina avatar would suit you better.

Modifié par leonia42, 01 avril 2011 - 07:46 .

[Almostfaceman]

Nashiktal wrote...

Depend on Earth? For what? All the resources come from colonies.

Also the Earth nations are not working together. The alliance came from their various space programs, but the nations are no longer tied to the Aliiance outside of being part of humanity as a whole.

Divided nations work together all the time.  Look at Britian and the U.S.  The Alliance is a bureaucracy formed by these nations as a mechanism for them to work together.

No, the Alliance does not get the vast majority of its manpower and resources from the tiny colonies.  Our largest colony has 5 million people.  Also, per the codex that states that Earth is humanity's capital - it also states that resources from the colonies and the outposts flow into Earth.

[Nashiktal]

leonia42 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Of course not, but read again the
codex - earth is the central hub - resources from the colonies and
outposts flow into earth.  The vast majority - right now - of resources
comes from humanity's largest population and resource - Earth.

The Earth codex entry makes no such claims about where the majority of resources come from. Now you're just making stuff up.

Also, I think an Udina avatar would suit you better.

In fact its reverse. The resources from the various colonies flow to Earth to feed the glut. In return... Earth ships off some of its people in the overcrowded areas to make more colonies.

Thats it for actual tangible resources for the growth of humanity. If you want Eezio, you go to a colony. Heavy mining? go to a colony. Hell have you tried mining sol system in ME2? Barely anything left.

[GuardianAngel470]

Nashiktal wrote...

Lets break it down...

The Systems Alliance is an independent supranational government

representing the interests of
humanity as a whole.

The Alliance is responsible for the governance and defense of all extra-solar
colonies and space stations

Established its own independant parliment

is the central galactic institution of
human society.

The ALLIANCE not Earth is part of the Council.

The Alliance controls all access to the sol system, so it also controls the flow of resources. It also builds ships at its own independent stations, and possibly other colonies.

But Earth is the symbol of humanity. That about right?

It comes down to how it appears, not what is logically or legally correct. The Alliance can hold the trial on Earth just as well as it can hold it on Arcturus station but it is Earth that the Batarians recognize as the source of their problems, not Arcturus station.

The goal is to convince the Batarians not to start a war and in order to appease them you provide a symbol, not anythng concrete.

The alliance isn't going to hand over Shepard but the location of the trial would likely be decided for symbolic reasons, much like that of the Nuremberg trials (partly chosen because it had been the site of many N.azi rallies).

Just face it, politics and reason almost never go hand in hand.