1529 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Almostfaceman wrote...

The alliance has facilites on Earth, so clearly this analogy doesn't hold water. 

It does. See the post you quoted.

[piemanz]

leonia42 wrote...

Resources are more powerful than bodies.

Bodies are resourcse

[Leonia]

Almostfaceman wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Resources are more powerful than bodies.

Resources are produced by "bodies".  More bodies building parts, more bodies making food, more bodies to pilot ships, more bodies to take out the garbage, etc.

Mechs.

[Almostfaceman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

The alliance has facilites on Earth, so clearly this analogy doesn't hold water. 

It does. See the post you quoted.

No, no it doesn't.  Hackett agrees with me. 

[Almostfaceman]

leonia42 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Resources are more powerful than bodies.

Resources are produced by "bodies".  More bodies building parts, more bodies making food, more bodies to pilot ships, more bodies to take out the garbage, etc.

Mechs.

Mechs gotta be built somewhere.  More bodies on Earth to make 'em than anywhere else. 

[Weskerr]

piemanz wrote...

The point is not wether Earth is the highest human power.The point is what is going to look best to appease the batarians.This is the WHOLE point of the trial in the first place.Theres a very good chance that the batarians have no idea how our political system works so it would make sense that you hold the trial on the human homeworld for maximum political points.

Agreed, but the Alliance would not be willing to hold a trial unless they thought that the batarians were pretty damn convinced that the Alliance had something to do with the deaths of 300,000 of their people. So, do the Batarians have evidence and are they convinced that the Alliance had something to do with it? They must, because the Alliance would not be trying to appease them like this - putting their greatest hero on trial (first human spector and savior of the galaxy) - if they were not convinced that the Alliance was responsible.

Hackett says that the last thing the Alliance needs is war with the Batarians while fighting off a Reaper invasion. However, by putting their greatest asset to stop the Reapers on trial - effectively tying his hands - wouldn't it have been better for the Alliance to appease the Batarians some other way? In my opinion, war with the Batarians is preferable to imprisoning Shepard if they want to stop the Reapers.

[GuardianAngel470]

leonia42 wrote...

Resources are more powerful than bodies.

Somebody didn't pay attention in High School Economics...

[Leonia]

In the future, you have mechs building mechs. It's not that hard. Stop arguing from the vantage point of 2011, please.

And that was uncalled for Guardian, especially after I defended you earlier.

Modifié par leonia42, 01 avril 2011 - 08:13 .

[Nashiktal]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

It is at this point that I question that you even played ME1. Go replay it, and go to the sidequest during the shanxi protest, and talk to the man looking to be reelected. To be elected he has to live in space, and constantly moving around at that.

Do you know what "vast majority" means?  11 billion humans on Earth.  Most of the humans in space are from Earth.  There is no other habitat that comes anywhere remotely close to Earth's population.

That is fine and dandy. While you are on Earth. However that 11 billion isn't part of one nation. They are spread between several nations. 

The Alliance is its OWN nation. It says so in the codex, it is said in game. The alliance has its own elections, separate from any sort of political election on Earth. in fact, you have to live in space for a set amount of years before you can even be considered for election in a seat of the parliment.

Sound familiar? 

All those numbers are meaningless without resources. Right now all those numbers on Earth are actually EATING resources. The only good that 11 does is for potential colonists. (as a tangible resource)

[Zulu_DFA]

Almostfaceman wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Resources are more powerful than bodies.

Resources are produced by "bodies".

Not in the ME universe they ain't. They are produced by various robo-mining facilities and such. In fact, we have a whole faction of robots, which is considered quite menacing in-game.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 avril 2011 - 08:14 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

The alliance has facilites on Earth, so clearly this analogy doesn't hold water. 

It does. See the post you quoted.

No, no it doesn't.  Hackett agrees with me. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

PLOT HOLE [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

[Almostfaceman]

leonia42 wrote...

In the future, you have mechs building mechs. It's not that hard. Stop arguing from the vantage point of 2011, please.

And that was uncalled for Guardian, especially after I defended you earlier.

Stop making stuff up.  Nowhere does it show robots walking around making everything.  If you want to take that to an extreme then fine - 11 billion progammers is still a better resource than any other small colony can compete with. 

[Nashiktal]

Almostfaceman wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

In the future, you have mechs building mechs. It's not that hard. Stop arguing from the vantage point of 2011, please.

And that was uncalled for Guardian, especially after I defended you earlier.

Stop making stuff up.  Nowhere does it show robots walking around making everything.  If you want to take that to an extreme then fine - 11 billion progammers is still a better resource than any other small colony can compete with. 

[Almostfaceman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

The alliance has facilites on Earth, so clearly this analogy doesn't hold water. 

It does. See the post you quoted.

No, no it doesn't.  Hackett agrees with me. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

PLOT HOLE [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

Nope, you're just ignoring how easily the trial can be held on Earth.  That is not a plot hole.  That is you not getting your way.

[Leonia]

Almostfaceman wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

In the future, you have mechs building mechs. It's not that hard. Stop arguing from the vantage point of 2011, please.

And that was uncalled for Guardian, especially after I defended you earlier.

Stop making stuff up.  Nowhere does it show robots walking around making everything.  If you want to take that to an extreme then fine - 11 billion progammers is still a better resource than any other small colony can compete with. 

Pot. Kettle. Black.

You sir have made your entire argument in this thread based on made up stuff and one snippet of a codex entry (while ignoring the rest of that entry's context). I'm not one for ad hominem attacks but.. come freaking on.

[FeralEwok]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

FeralEwok wrote...

Shepard's trial...IF he is even put on trial...would most likely not be held on Earth

I sure hope so, but, given a certain Hackett's line in the "Arrival" DLC and knowing BioWare, I'm worried.

If it was to be held on Earth it doesn't exactly mean that the Government officials who are in charge of Earth or the Alliance are the ones who put him to trial.

Anyone consider the possibility of a summit? The Council along with all the parties involved in this affair meet in a specified location such as Earth due to its signifgance in being that Shepard is first and foremost in the batarian's eyes..all four of them, the alliance/earth's eyes, and the council's eyes to be human.

[Almostfaceman]

leonia42 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

In the future, you have mechs building mechs. It's not that hard. Stop arguing from the vantage point of 2011, please.

And that was uncalled for Guardian, especially after I defended you earlier.

Stop making stuff up.  Nowhere does it show robots walking around making everything.  If you want to take that to an extreme then fine - 11 billion progammers is still a better resource than any other small colony can compete with. 

Pot. Kettle. Black.

You sir have made your entire argument in this thread based on made up stuff and one snippet of a codex entry (while ignoring the rest of that entry's context). I'm not one for ad hominem attacks but.. come freaking on.

No, I have not made anything up.  Are you honestly telling me you believe - and have codex evidence for - the Alliance getting most of its resources from human colonies and outposts?  For reals?  Bring it on, I'll concede the point if you can prove that Earth doesn't still provide the vast majority of what the Alliance needs to function.

[GuardianAngel470]

leonia42 wrote...

In the future, you have mechs building mechs. It's not that hard. Stop arguing from the vantage point of 2011, please.

And that was uncalled for Guardian, especially after I defended you earlier.

I'm just saying, a person is considered a resource in business. Maybe it was uncalled for and for that I appologize but hey, with some people its true (like politicians. They don't seem to pay attention in high school history either...)

Mainly it was meant more comically but eh.

[GuardianAngel470]

FeralEwok wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

FeralEwok wrote...

Shepard's trial...IF he is even put on trial...would most likely not be held on Earth

I sure hope so, but, given a certain Hackett's line in the "Arrival" DLC and knowing BioWare, I'm worried.

If it was to be held on Earth it doesn't exactly mean that the Government officials who are in charge of Earth or the Alliance are the ones who put him to trial.

Anyone consider the possibility of a summit? The Council along with all the parties involved in this affair meet in a specified location such as Earth due to its signifgance in being that Shepard is first and foremost in the batarian's eyes..all four of them, the alliance/earth's eyes, and the council's eyes to be human.

Yeah, I have. Earth would be the location, the logisitics would iron itself out.

[Zulu_DFA]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

What?! 4 relays? Where the heck is that said? Seriously, 4 relays in one system? Or do you really mean a secondary relay that links to 4 other systems?

Since it's the Codex Quotation Day today:

=== Stations: Arcturus Station ===

Arcturus Station is the gateway to Sol, a 5-kilometer diameter space station at the trailing Lagrange
point of the gas giant Themis. Construction on Arcturus Station began in 2151 and concluded in 2162. It
was inaugurated in 2156, and has served as the military and political headquarters of the Systems
Alliance from the First Contact War until the present.
 
When humanity activated the Charon Mass Relay in 2149, it led to Arcturus, 36 light years from Sol,
Earth's sun. Arcturus is the third brightest star seen from Earth. It is an ancient red giant from the
generation born before Sol. Its worlds are either gas giants or ice chunks. While some rocky debris
exists, the metal content is 25% lower than normal. To build Arcturus Station, metallic asteroids were
towed through the mass relays to the construction site. Many of these asteroids remain near the
station, their mined out areas home to transient populations.
 
The expense of bringing construct materials into the system was acceptable due to its strategic value.
With three primary mass relays in addition to the secondary one to Sol, Arcturus is a major
communications and military chokepoint. The Alliance 1st Fleet is based in Arcturus, where it can guard
the gates to Sol and react to incursions in the three connected clusters. The Station also hosts the
Systems Alliance Parliament and the Systems Alliance Military general headquarters. Its permanent
population is approximately 45,000.
 
Arcturus is actually from the galactic halo, one of a cluster of 52 stars that are "crashing through" the
disc of the galaxy. In a billion years, Arcturus will be sailing through the depths of extragalactic dark
space.
______________________________________________________

FYI, IIRC, the Widow System (home to the Citadel) has dozens of Mass relays.

Also, Galactic map sucks, see thread.

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Earth isn't a black hole for resources, its a manufacturer.

Yes it is, and no it's not.

Most things in the ME universe are manufactured and assembled locally, thanks to the omni-tools and such.

Some hazardous/experimantal industry is centralized on remote and unpopulated colony planets.

Big things such as dreadnoughts are assembled in space. The Alliance does that at the Arcturus Station.

[Zulu_DFA]

FeralEwok wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

FeralEwok wrote...

Shepard's trial...IF he is even put on trial...would most likely not be held on Earth

I sure hope so, but, given a certain Hackett's line in the "Arrival" DLC and knowing BioWare, I'm worried.

If it was to be held on Earth it doesn't exactly mean that the Government officials who are in charge of Earth or the Alliance are the ones who put him to trial.

Anyone consider the possibility of a summit? The Council along with all the parties involved in this affair meet in a specified location such as Earth due to its signifgance in being that Shepard is first and foremost in the batarian's eyes..all four of them, the alliance/earth's eyes, and the council's eyes to be human.

And Hackett does know about this "summit" how?

The plot hole is already here, and it's going to become huge, when Shepard goes on trial on Earth with no explanation whatsoever as to why on Earth.

[Almostfaceman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

FeralEwok wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

FeralEwok wrote...

Shepard's trial...IF he is even put on trial...would most likely not be held on Earth

I sure hope so, but, given a certain Hackett's line in the "Arrival" DLC and knowing BioWare, I'm worried.

If it was to be held on Earth it doesn't exactly mean that the Government officials who are in charge of Earth or the Alliance are the ones who put him to trial.

Anyone consider the possibility of a summit? The Council along with all the parties involved in this affair meet in a specified location such as Earth due to its signifgance in being that Shepard is first and foremost in the batarian's eyes..all four of them, the alliance/earth's eyes, and the council's eyes to be human.

And Hackett does know about this "summit" how?

The plot hole is already here, and it's going to become huge, when Shepard goes on trial on Earth with no explanation whatsoever as to why on Earth.

There doesn't need to be a "summit"  The Alliance is not estranged from Earth.  The Alliance has offices on Earth.  The Alliance has courts on Earth  The Alliance has soldiers on Earth.  The Alliance has spaceships on Earth. The Alliance is part of Earth's defense plan. Hackett doesn't need to know about a "summit".  There is no plot hole.

[Dave of Canada]

Few things to point out.

Bringing Shepard to Earth isn't a good political move, it isn't an symbol of anything. If somebody killed 300k people and was being brought back to a place that practically worships the guy, I'd be worried that the trial would be improperly handled. You say it's a good political move to appease the Batarians, it's a horrible one. If you want to please the Batarians, have him be scapegoated infront of the entire galaxy instead of hiding him away with other humans that view him as an icon.

Saren wasn't going to be trialed at Palaven if he was captured after Eden Prime, that would probably have infuriated the humans.

---

Earth isn't united, the only thing they are united under is the Systems Alliance and that's because it represents humanity and not each individual nation's poltical goals. The Alliance has no pull or influence on Earth's politics just as much as Earth's politics has no pull on galactic politics because they both represent entirely different groups of people. When somebody has to do something with galactic politics, they are stationed in space and don't sit at Earth. Hell, most of the people in the Alliance themselves live in spaceships all their lives. Shepard can be a spacer too.

Hell, Earth isn't even at peace with each other. Just a handful of years before the Systems Alliance was actually founded we had Washington being bombarded by secessionists after Mexico and Canada joined the United States to form the United North American States (Kasumi Stolen Memories DLC codex entry). This is excluding how the poverish parts of Earth are currently still using today's modern technology and are covered in pollution.

Just because Earth has the most human population doesn't mean it's important in galactic politics, it's important because it supplies the Alliance but the Alliance supplies them with alien trade and handle the diplomatic incidents. You never heard anybody in both games, the novels and the comics suddenly say something like "I have to send this to Earth!", it's always about the Alliance and Arcterus Station.

Why? Because the Systems Alliance is independent. It makes choices on it's own, it goes to war on it's own, it defends it's own, colonizes planets and deals with the political game on it's own without having any involvement with Earth. Hell, who does the Human Councilor represent on the Council? Earth or the Alliance? Obviously the latter because the former has nothing to do with him.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 avril 2011 - 08:32 .

[FeralEwok]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

FeralEwok wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

FeralEwok wrote...

Shepard's trial...IF he is even put on trial...would most likely not be held on Earth

I sure hope so, but, given a certain Hackett's line in the "Arrival" DLC and knowing BioWare, I'm worried.

If it was to be held on Earth it doesn't exactly mean that the Government officials who are in charge of Earth or the Alliance are the ones who put him to trial.

Anyone consider the possibility of a summit? The Council along with all the parties involved in this affair meet in a specified location such as Earth due to its signifgance in being that Shepard is first and foremost in the batarian's eyes..all four of them, the alliance/earth's eyes, and the council's eyes to be human.

And Hackett does know about this "summit" how?

The plot hole is already here, and it's going to become huge, when Shepard goes on trial on Earth with no explanation whatsoever as to why on Earth.

Have you seen Hackett? The man has been around for quite sometime and being in the position he is in he has a keen military and diplomatic mind, perhaps he knows more about this fictional government right now than us the players do. Maybe it will be held on Earth, maybe when writting the dialouge for arrival they didnt put as much thought into it, maybe Hackett is just speculating or mistated what he meant...none of us have the full on answer as to who is doing what or where but if it happens i wouldnt think that they would just instantly show up on Earth without no explanation. Granted there are plot holes here and there scattered about in ME2 but does it really destory the quality of the game overall? Not everyone unlike hardcore fans who spend time writting on these forums are going to read all the codex entries and know how everything is structured, now while that might seem insulting to some people's intellegence its not what should make or break the game. The focus of of Mass Effect 3 is stopping the Reapers and not trying to grasp the concept of a fictional judicial system

[Zulu_DFA]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Few things to point out.

Bringing Shepard to Earth isn't a good political move, it isn't an symbol of anything. If somebody killed 300k people and was being brought back to a place that practically worships the guy, I'd be worried that the trial would be improperly handled. You say it's a good political move to appease the Batarians, it's a horrible one. If you want to please the Batarians, have him be scapegoated infront of the entire galaxy instead of hiding him away with other humans that view him as an icon.

Saren wasn't going to be trialed at Palaven if he was captured after Eden Prime, that would probably have infuriated the humans.

---

Earth isn't united, the only thing they are united under is the Systems Alliance and that's because it represents humanity and not each individual nation's poltical goals. The Alliance has no pull or influence on Earth's politics just as much as Earth's politics has no pull on galactic politics because they both represent entirely different groups of people. When somebody has to do something with galactic politics, they are stationed in space and don't sit at Earth. Hell, most of the people in the Alliance themselves live in spaceships all their lives. Shepard can be a spacer too.

Hell, Earth isn't even at peace with each other. Just a handful of years before the Systems Alliance was actually founded we had Washington being bombarded by secessionists after Mexico and Canada joined the United States to form the United North American States (Kasumi Stolen Memories DLC codex entry). This is excluding how the poverish parts of Earth are currently still using today's modern technology and are covered in pollution.

Just because Earth has the most human population doesn't mean it's important in galactic politics, it's important because it supplies the Alliance but the Alliance supplies them with alien trade and handle the diplomatic incidents. You never heard anybody in both games, the novels and the comics suddenly say something like "I have to send this to Earth!", it's always about the Alliance and Arcterus Station.

Why? Because the Systems Alliance is independent. It makes choices on it's own, it goes to war on it's own, it defends it's own, colonizes planets and deals with the political game on it's own without having any involvement with Earth. Hell, who does the Human Councilor represent on the Council? Earth or the Alliance? Obviously the latter because the former has nothing to do with him.

QFT.