1529 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

elektrego wrote...

The Batarians are not part of the council races and they hate humans. Now Shepard has given them a reason to go to war with humanity. The only purpose of a trial on earth is to show the Batarians that earth is not behind Shepard's actions in order to prevent a war and not to exact justice on Shepard.

This is not about exacting justice on Shepard via a fair trial or making him a scape goat via a mock trial. This is about observing the formalities in either case. Such formalities as: subjecting him to a proper jury, which is either the Alliance Navy court martial or the Citadel Council, depending of Shepard's spectre status. Therefore the trial must take place either at the Citadel, or at the Arcturus Station.

If there isn't supposed to be a public trial, and Shepard is just to be locked up, there is even less reason to do it on Earth, which is the best place for an escape attempt should he wish to undertake it.

DarkSeraphym wrote...

That or it is on Earth because they intend to have either the trial or the actual imprisonment interrupted when the Reapers show up. God I hope not as it would end up being a missed opportunity, but I'm willing to bet $10 that is why they have it taking place on Earth.

To be honest, I had this idea myself, that one of the possible scenarios could be the Reaper invasion commencing in the middle of the trial. But it was way before it became clear that the Reapers were going to start with Earth, and I kinda drifted away from it, also not in small part due to the fact that it couldn't provide the necessary reason for nerfing Shepard's skills (as opposed to a lenghtly imprisonment). BioWare, however, seems to have drifted towards it, due to it's "coolness", I presume.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2011 - 11:43 .

[Ieldra]

I think you're making too much of things, Zulu.

Where a trial takes place is absolutely irrelevant. Not every act of say, treason against your country must be tried in its capital. Earth is the economic centre of the Alliance and contributes most of the Alliance's military resources, so a trial on Earth is perfectly within the realm of the reasonable. Even more so a trial conducted mostly for its symbolic value.

[Wereparrot]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

In many cases Shepard is still a spectre, which means his arse belongs to the Citadel Council.
That is all.

Except that Shepherd is from Earth, and his ties to Eath, despite being a Spectre, have never been called into question. He belongs to Earth IMO.

Actually, not all Shepards out there are from Earth. And even those that are must be tried where the authorities sit and not where they "belong".

Maybe so, but I like to think that my Shepherds are all English, accent notwitstanding, and consequently remain loyal to England. I don't like the idea that Shepherd is a subject of the Council. I would like the option to bring this point up in the event of a trial.

I love England too and the date of the Invincible Armada's defeat has been the PIN-code on all my SIM-cards, but this has nothing to do with the ME universe, in which England is a part of an acid-washed slum, as Administrator Anoleis bluntly put it, may he rot in the filthiest jail for that!

ME1 established an amazing lore, and ME2 screwed it all up well enough. I don't hold any breath for amends to be made in ME3, but can we at least not have any plot holes for the sake of plot holes?

Wereparrot wrote...

I get your point but nowhere in either ME game is it implied that Shepherd either has been released from or acknowledges being released from his Earthen commitments. The Alliance 'reliquishes' a hold on him, sure, but I don't think individual governments would see it that way.

And another part of the ME lore is that the Earthworms' individual governments have no say whatsoever in any matter beyond the Charon relay, where the Alliance calls all the Human political and military shots.

OK people I get the general lore and wotnot, but essentially what I'm saying is that if I was king/president I would be extremely angry if a foreign body executed judgement upon one of my own subjects; even if it was beyond my control, I would still have a lot to say about it.  

[Wereparrot]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I think you're making too much of things, Zulu.

Where a trial takes place is absolutely irrelevant. Not every act of say, treason against your country must be tried in its capital. Earth is the economic centre of the Alliance and contributes most of the Alliance's military resources, so a trial on Earth is perfectly within the realm of the reasonable. Even more so a trial conducted mostly for its symbolic value.

Shepherd's 'treason' was not against Earth but against the Council, and I'm not sure if they have any right to accuse him of such an offence.

[Cancer Puppet]

Wereparrot wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...


In many cases Shepard is still a spectre, which means his arse belongs to the Citadel Council.
That is all.

Except that Shepherd is from Earth, and his ties to Eath, despite being a Spectre, have never been called into question. He belongs to Earth IMO.

Shepard is only from earth in the earth-born background. He could also be a spacer or a colonist. So no, he doen't belong to earth nescessarily.

[lastpatriot]

Well, from the perspective of my Shep (Colonist/Renagon) there is no chance she will ever submit to the Alliance when it comes to this BS trial. After what the Alliance did, or the lack thereof, she broke off all relations, resigned her commission and formally joined up with Cerberus.

The Alliance can burn in hell for all she cares...

[Wereparrot]

Cancer Puppet wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...


In many cases Shepard is still a spectre, which means his arse belongs to the Citadel Council.
That is all.

Except that Shepherd is from Earth, and his ties to Eath, despite being a Spectre, have never been called into question. He belongs to Earth IMO.

Shepard is only from earth in the earth-born background. He could also be a spacer or a colonist. So no, he doen't belong to earth nescessarily.

Irrelevant, IMO. Being human, he is of Earth, even if he was not born there.

[The dead fish]

Shepherd's 'treason' was not against Earth but against the Council, and I'm not sure if they have any right to accuse him of such an offence.

No, it's not a betrayal, it's a complication that affects only the earth. Because Batarians are natural enemies of humans. They hate humans. They are latent conflict with them since 2162. They have failed to argue a Panet is Grissom who thought it was not worth the trouble.

The entire fleet Batarians consider human as hostile in their system. Tension mounted recently between humanity and hegemony, leading to an open crisis.

And now 300 000 Batarians killed at the hands of a human? Famous and still belonging to the Alliance ? Which one is threatened? The council or the earth ?

No, whatever the origin of Shepard, it is on Earth he must render account.

The council is not really concerned. To discharge themself, they will abandon him, as they abandoned Saren after it was proved its attack on humanity and its alliance with the Geth.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 31 mars 2011 - 11:45 .

[Zeratul20]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Everyone's talking about the Arrival DLC and the prospect of Shepard's trial, so I got curious...

So here goes. First of all, I'd like to notice that Shepard didn't need to blow 300K Batarians away to be tried. He got enough blood on his hands without that. But this is almost irrelevant to the main point:

THERE IS NO REASON FOR SHEPARD TO BE TRIED AND/OR IMPRISONED ON EARTH!!!!

In many cases Shepard is still a spectre, which means his arse belongs to the Citadel Council. And I suppose the crimes against the "galactic community" (or whatever they call it) must be tried at the center of the said community, which is the CITADEL.

If Shepard isn't a spectre anymore, and/or the Citadel Council wants to toss the problem to its source (aka the Systems Alliance) even if he is, the trial must take place at the ARCTURUS STATION, which is the political center and military headquarters of the Systems Alliance.

As to the imprisonment, there is no way such a high-profile and dangerous convict can be held on a populated planet.

That is all.

Technically, suppose the Council revokes his immunity... Then the Alliance would be authorised to prosecute Shepard.
Furthermore, holding the trial on earth could be symbolic. To appease the Batarians, humanity itself decides to prosecute Shepard. As it was made apparant in the DLC, Shepard would willingly submit himself to the Alliance. When Shepard's spectre status is revoked, this might not even be so problematic.
For all we know, the highest judicial power is located on earth. A flimsy explanation, I agree. Furthermore, "Earth" conveys the message ("you'll be judged by humans/the Alliance") better than "Arcturus Station", so they might've just mentioned it for clarity's sake.
In any case, this didn't really bother me. I don't think it's that big a deal. I respect your opinion, of course, but don't get so worked up over it. It's not good for yourself either.

[Zulu_DFA]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I think you're making too much of things, Zulu.

Where a trial takes place is absolutely irrelevant. Not every act of say, treason against your country must be tried in its capital. Earth is the economic centre of the Alliance and contributes most of the Alliance's military resources, so a trial on Earth is perfectly within the realm of the reasonable. Even more so a trial conducted mostly for its symbolic value.

This is not entirely correct. I, for one, think that loosing Earth to the Reapers is going to be only beneficial for the Alliance, if the colonies remain untouched. Kinda like loosing weight. But that's a subject for a whole another discussion.

My standing point is that setting Shepard's trial on Earth is kind of like a left-handed salute.

And I can't believe I'm saying this, but this issue makes me actually sympathetic with the "Down with the Humans are special trope!" folks.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2011 - 11:57 .

[The dead fish]

Thinking about two minutes. If it is the council that condemns shepard, is what it will satisfy Batarians? They still think that humans do not take their responsibilities.

By cons if it is Earth  that condemns shepard, then there will be a chance to appease them, even if 300 000 people, is a price too heavy to accept it ...

Finally together, if we count all the slavery, of all pirates. and dead made by their terrorists which were on Terra Nova (in millions of deaths if we was not made the DLC) is not much.

.... Guys killing 300 000 batarians is not even a war-crime. Most likely a great accomplishment.

I agree ( XD ), but it's political. If humans want to save their skin, they must abandon shepard. ^^

Modifié par Sylvianus, 31 mars 2011 - 11:56 .

[Wereparrot]

Sylvianus wrote...

Shepherd's 'treason' was not against Earth but against the Council, and I'm not sure if they have any right to accuse him of such an offence.

No, it's not a betrayal, it's a complication that affects only the earth. Because Batarians are natural enemies of humans. They hate humans. They are latent conflict with them since 2162. They have failed to argue a Panet is Grissom who thought it was not worth the trouble.

The entire fleet Batarians consider human as hostile in their system. Tension mounted recently between humanity and hegemony, leading to an open crisis.

And now 300 000 Batarians killed at the hands of a human? Famous and still belonging to the Alliance ? Which one is threatened? The council or the earth ?

No, whatever the origin of Shepard, it is on Earth he must render account.

The council is not really concerned. To discharge themself, they will abandon him, as they abandoned Saren after it was proved its attack on humanity and its alliance with the Geth.

I was referring to the accusation of treason by the council for working with Cerberus.

But I agree that it is not a question of treason. It's not even a question of a war crime. Rather, it is an inquest over an unfortunate decision that had to be made, and IMO Shepherd made the right one.

[kaimanaMM]

I don't even get why Shepard would be put on trial in the first place.

Arrival was a 'personal favor' to Admiral Hackett, so super srs sekret that we couldn't even take our squadmades because it needed to be so hushhush.  So, what, Hackett's going to tell Kalisah Al-Jilani that it was Shepard who blew the system?  He claims the public will be out for blood.  How will the public find out it was Shepard, specifically, unless Hackett points the finger?  Do we not have a stealth ship?  Was it not specifically stated that the Normandy was more or less running silent during this mission due to all the satellites?   Should Hackett tell the Alliance higher-ups, wouldn't they ask why Shepard just got some wild hair, ran out to some random Batarian system, took out a mass relay and a planet full of Batarians?

We're not exactly with Cerberus.  Yes, you can keep the base and the Illusive man can smile and twist his mustache all he wants, but at the beginning of Mass Effect : Revelation we're told that Shep and TIM haven't exactly been keeping in touch and their relationship was always rocky.  But we're not exactly with the Alliance.  I think it's Anderson who even says Shep's gone off the grid and the two haven't spoken in a while. At this point, Shepard is a free agent.

And speaking of books.  Saren blew a refinery full of workers on Camala way back in the first Mass Effect book. He never went on trial for doing so.  Because he's a SPECTRE and by the very codex definition SPECTRE's are the people who get the job done.  Some are diplomatic peacemakers others are rutheless shoot-first-ask-questions-later individuals.  Whether you agree with Saren making a crater of that refinery or not, he was well within the authority given to him by the Council to do so.  Which is why, in the end, Anderson and the Alliance had no case against him.

I have nothing kind to say about Arrival because honestly, it took everything that we've been told through books and games up until this point and tossed it out the window.  In less than 60 minutes.

Modifié par kaimanaMM, 31 mars 2011 - 12:13 .

[Zulu_DFA]

lastpatriot wrote...

Well, from the perspective of my Shep (Colonist/Renagon) there is no chance she will ever submit to the Alliance when it comes to this BS trial. After what the Alliance did, or the lack thereof, she broke off all relations, resigned her commission and formally joined up with Cerberus.

The Alliance can burn in hell for all she cares...

This too. I was hoping Shepard will be tricked or trapped and captured and dragged to the trial by force.

The shoehorning Shepard into walking into it willingly is just an invitation to claim: "NOT MY SHEPARD!"

Personally, I don't say I definitely wouldn't go to the trial. But I would at least consider that maybe it's time to finally go rogue for good, or would call TIM and ask his opinion on all this (if only to have another convo with Martin Sheen!!!).

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2011 - 12:21 .

[ashwind]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

By shoehorning Shepard into walking into it willingly is just an invitation to claim: "NOT MY SHEPARD!"

Personally, I don't say I definitely wouldn't go to the trial. But I would at least consider that maybe it's time to finally go rogue for good, or would call TIM and ask his opinion on all this (if only to have another convo with Martin Sheen!!!).

My Shep will go to the trail if called only because that is the only time I can get all the top leaders there to listen to me. It is impossible otherwise to get an audience with those politicians/leaders - they have to be there because I blew up an entire system and risk war with Buttarian!

... Cos they will probably ignore Shepard and Shepard will get away to rally others and just return in time to see London in flames...

[Tasker]

What I don't understand is that this shouldn't be going to trial anyway.

Shepard was on a covert mission that only she and Hackett knew about.

Sure the Normandy picked Shepard up at the end, but the crew has no Idea what happened before that and the Batarians can't know exactly what happened because those that saw Shepard and might have worked it out are all dead.

So unless Shepard or Hackett tells exactly what happened ( and why would they, it was a black op and never took place ) then nobody should go to trial.

Technically Shepard and Hackett can write any reports on the matter to reflect Shepard as having nothing to do with it.

Modifié par Orkboy, 31 mars 2011 - 12:33 .

[Silmane]

Orkboy wrote...

What I don't understand is that this shouldn't be going to trial anyway.

Shepard was on a covert mission that only she and Hackett knew about.

Sure the Normandy picked Shepard up at the end, but the crew has no Idea what happened before that and the Batarians can't know exactly what happened because those that saw Shepard and might have worked it out are all dead.

So unless Shepard or Hackett tells exactly what happened ( and why would they, it was a black op and never took place ) then nobody should go to trial.

Technically Shepard and Hackett can write any reports on the matter to reflect Shepard as having nothing to do with it.

What's even better is if you only have two surviving crew members like me. Two who wouldn't give a damn.

[Zulu_DFA]

Silmane wrote...

Orkboy wrote...

What I don't understand is that this shouldn't be going to trial anyway.

Shepard was on a covert mission that only she and Hackett knew about.

Sure the Normandy picked Shepard up at the end, but the crew has no Idea what happened before that and the Batarians can't know exactly what happened because those that saw Shepard and might have worked it out are all dead.

So unless Shepard or Hackett tells exactly what happened ( and why would they, it was a black op and never took place ) then nobody should go to trial.

Technically Shepard and Hackett can write any reports on the matter to reflect Shepard as having nothing to do with it.

What's even better is if you only have two surviving crew members like me. Two who wouldn't give a damn.

The Shadow Broker must have... oh, wait...

[Wereparrot]

Orkboy wrote...

What I don't understand is that this shouldn't be going to trial anyway.

I agree. Come on people, this 'Shepherd on Trial' theory has a hole in it that you could sail an oil tanker through sideways, and comfortably so. What evidence is there to accuse Shepherd of anything? I mean, all eyewitnesses are dead and the asteroid as well as the relay is destroyed. All anyone knows is that a batarian colony has been mysteriously removed from existence, along with a mass relay. The only way I can see this getting out is if Hackett betrays Shepherd. Am I missing something glaring?

[Aesieru]

Um... I've saved hundreds of thousands of millions of lives.... because I save some others too I've going to be tried?

I'm sorry but that wouldn't hold up all that well..

Greater good and all that.

[Slayer299]

After the meeting with Hackett, its clear that Shep will be on trial by ME3. But my take on it was that it would not be a public one even with a public outcry, but a quiet military tribunal on Earth that finds Shep *guilty* before he is handed over to the Batarians. Probably not correct, but that was my thought on how it will play.

Oh, and as to Shep's Spectre status I think that's easy to address, its been made very clear that the CC will disown Spectre's to cover themselves so I see no reason why they wouldn't dismiss Shep's Spectre status as easily as they re-confirmed it in ME2.

Modifié par Slayer299, 31 mars 2011 - 01:06 .

[InHarmsWay]

This was my response to some people in another thread who were convinced Shepard is going to jail, even after the Reaper war.

InHarmsWay wrote...

Zeratul20 wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Macgarnickle wrote...

Dude calm down you have your opinion and others have theirs it's just a game. Personally I don't think they'll ever have a real trial but that's just me, they might it's Bioware's game. But think about this how many people are going to want to play a game were the hero ends up in jail at the end the game.

I am calm, I'm just so flabbergasted over the fact that he seems convinced that Shepard will be aquitted without any actual evidence to support it. I did not mean for that post to come across as mean, I just didn't know how to properly word my utter disbelief. I just want to know how he's thinking.

I fear that will be the case, though. MY GUESS IS you'll probably get some kind of "trial" quest at the beginning of the game, where you'll get the opportunity to plead your case. Depending on your actions in Arrival, you might have several options.
If you fail, you're arrested and might, potentially, have to fight your way out/get out during the confusion caused by a reaper attack. (Even though that would seem very odd for a Paragon Shepard, for whom it'd be more logical to be saved by others.)
If you succeed, however, you might be able to resolve it peacefully. Say, even if you do get sentenced, you get permission to go and fight the reapers before returning to face your punishment, etc.
Kind of like the Landsmeet in DA:O or that trial sidequest in NWN. (Can't remember if there was a similar quest in BG or KotOR.)

Just a thought.

In any case, I really liked the DLC. Even if it was a tad short, 1,5 - 2 hours is still acceptable for 5 EUR. The quest itself, however, was great. Far better as an epilogue than, say, Witch hunt. (No offence to the people who made Witch Hunt, it just felt kind of unsatisfying to me.)

(Did anyone else get the feeling that they didn't get Seth Green to do Joker's line, though? He just sounded odd to me...)

This is what I think will happen as well. Shepard will face a trial at the very beginning, but the Reapers will come and Shepard escapes in the panic. The galaxy will know of the Reapers at this point and realize that he was right and he isn't deranged. To say that he will be sent to jail after the Reaper war is someone who completely ignores history when it comes to major sacrifices. Like as it was mentioned earlier in this thread, Harry Truman authorized the dropping of two nukes on Nagasaki and Hiroshima resulting in the deaths of 220,000. He did this to save hundreds of thousands more on both sides. No one in this whole operation faced any criminal charges. Not the scientists, not the bomber, and not Harry Truman. This is what will happen to Shepard. He will be acquitted post-Reaper war.

[DarkSeraphym]

Wereparrot wrote...

Orkboy wrote...

What I don't understand is that this shouldn't be going to trial anyway.

I agree. Come on people, this 'Shepherd on Trial' theory has a hole in it that you could sail an oil tanker through sideways, and comfortably so. What evidence is there to accuse Shepherd of anything? I mean, all eyewitnesses are dead and the asteroid as well as the relay is destroyed. All anyone knows is that a batarian colony has been mysteriously removed from existence, along with a mass relay. The only way I can see this getting out is if Hackett betrays Shepherd. Am I missing something glaring?

If all of the witnesses are dead, then who was piloting that shuttle that got away in the last section of the DLC? Besides, if you are from the United States then you should have a pretty good idea of how a "witch hunt" works, which is what Hackett called it..Witch hunts don't normally involve a lot of evidence that could conclusively convict someone. Normally, all of the evidence is circumstancial and the only reason they are trying that person is so that they have someone to blame. Shepard fits the bill.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 31 mars 2011 - 01:14 .