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[Zulu_DFA]

FeralEwok wrote...

The focus of of Mass Effect 3 is stopping the Reapers and not trying to grasp the concept of a fictional judicial system

You see, we have a lot of disbelief to suspend about the Reapers, and Eezo, and FTL and whatnot.

But if just about everything begins to happen "just because" (aka bad writing), that makes it impossible to suspned the disbelief. We've already got a lot of this crap in ME2, so here is to hoping that ME3 won't be even worse.

[FeralEwok]

I agree that a just because is cheap or using something to nauseum to explain how that worked does require alot of suspension of disbelief.

I can only speak for myself here but I loved ME2 despite any plot holes here and there because I've yet to ever see a story that was perfect. For me most of those plot holes were minor because I saw the focus as being about Shepard's and his/her crew's more personal type of story and not so much about getting involved in learning about the framework of the galactic politics.

its almost like debating the difference of Science Fiction and Science Fantasy and determining what is more important.

Modifié par FeralEwok, 01 avril 2011 - 08:57 .

[Almostfaceman]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Few things to point out.

Bringing Shepard to Earth isn't a good political move, it isn't an symbol of anything. If somebody killed 300k people and was being brought back to a place that practically worships the guy, I'd be worried that the trial would be improperly handled. You say it's a good political move to appease the Batarians, it's a horrible one. If you want to please the Batarians, have him be scapegoated infront of the entire galaxy instead of hiding him away with other humans that view him as an icon.

Saren wasn't going to be trialed at Palaven if he was captured after Eden Prime, that would probably have infuriated the humans.

---

Earth isn't united, the only thing they are united under is the Systems Alliance and that's because it represents humanity and not each individual nation's poltical goals. The Alliance has no pull or influence on Earth's politics just as much as Earth's politics has no pull on galactic politics because they both represent entirely different groups of people. When somebody has to do something with galactic politics, they are stationed in space and don't sit at Earth. Hell, most of the people in the Alliance themselves live in spaceships all their lives. Shepard can be a spacer too.

Hell, Earth isn't even at peace with each other. Just a handful of years before the Systems Alliance was actually founded we had Washington being bombarded by secessionists after Mexico and Canada joined the United States to form the United North American States (Kasumi Stolen Memories DLC codex entry). This is excluding how the poverish parts of Earth are currently still using today's modern technology and are covered in pollution.

Just because Earth has the most human population doesn't mean it's important in galactic politics, it's important because it supplies the Alliance but the Alliance supplies them with alien trade and handle the diplomatic incidents. You never heard anybody in both games, the novels and the comics suddenly say something like "I have to send this to Earth!", it's always about the Alliance and Arcterus Station.

Why? Because the Systems Alliance is independent. It makes choices on it's own, it goes to war on it's own, it defends it's own, colonizes planets and deals with the political game on it's own without having any involvement with Earth. Hell, who does the Human Councilor represent on the Council? Earth or the Alliance? Obviously the latter because the former has nothing to do with him.

Read the quote.  This Alliance that you describe which is not connected to the human governments or supported by them is fiction.  The human governments actually make up the parliament of the Alliance.

In 2148, a mining team on Mars made perhaps humanity's greatest discovery. Within a year of the discovery, Earth's eighteen largest nations had drafted and ratified the Systems Alliance charter, establishing a representative political body to expand and defend human territory. Shortly thereafter, the various nations of Earth pooled their military resources to create the Systems Alliance Military. The same year, 2149, the Alliance discovered the Sol system's mass relay orbiting Pluto, previously thought to be a moon, Charon. The Charon Relay propelled them into space and the reach of humanity grew quickly.

Later...

The First Contact War was relatively short and bloodless, lasting only months and costing 623 human lives (with a slightly higher number of turian casualties). The Citadel Council intervened and negotiated a peace. With the discovery of the Citadel and the greater community, humanity leaped onto the galactic stage. The Alliance received a surge of popularity, which gave it the necessary political credibility to speak for humanity as a whole.

Since then, the Alliance has continued its expansion, with the resource wealth of a dozen settled colonies and hundreds of industrial outposts flowing back to Earth.

Humans have expanded rapidly from Earth in a very short period of time, becoming swiftly integrated into Citadel society and the galactic economy. They have become less ethnically diverse in the twenty-second century, due to a more multicultural society and greater unity between nations. Improved medical advances and gene therapy have led to longer, healthier lifespans; the average citizen can now expect to live to around 130. Most humans retain their native tongue, but learn alien languages or trade pidgin for the sake of convenience or as a gesture of unity.

The Alliance is responsible for the government and defense of all extra-solar human colonies, and represents humanity on the galactic stage. It is a supranational government, and is based on a parliamentary system, with the Alliance Parliament based at Arcturus Station. It is unknown if the representation is based on the population of member nations on Earth and the colonies, or if all nations and colonies involved receive the same amount of parliamentary members.

The Alliance government is headed by a Prime Minister; as of 2185 this position was occupied by Amul Shastri. It is unknown whether the Prime Minister is an elected member of Parliament, or is appointed to the position. While the Alliance is a supranational government, the member nations retain their individual sovereignty back on Earth.

[Nashiktal]

While the Alliance is a supranational government, the member nations retain their individual sovereignty back on Earth.

Separate.

[Almostfaceman]

Nashiktal wrote...

While the Alliance is a supranational government, the member nations retain their individual sovereignty back on Earth.

Separate.

No, they're joined with the Alliance - they make up the parliament.  Just because the Alliance doesn't go to Canada and regulate taxes doesn't mean there isn't a vital connection between Canada and the Alliance.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 01 avril 2011 - 09:13 .

[Nashiktal]

I read every single word in your post. Not once does it say that the Parliament has to be made of Earth politicians.

In fact what you posted just further cements that the Alliance is moving away from Earth.

"Humans have expanded rapidly from Earth in a very short period of time, becoming swiftly integrated into Citadel society and the galactic economy."

And large parts of your post is actually speculation from the ME wiki, not the in game codex.

[Almostfaceman]

Nashiktal wrote...

I read every single word in your post. Not once does it say that the Parliament has to be made of Earth politicians.

In fact what you posted just further cements that the Alliance is moving away from Earth.

"Humans have expanded rapidly from Earth in a very short period of time, becoming swiftly integrated into Citadel society and the galactic economy."

And large parts of your post is actually speculation from the ME wiki, not the in game codex.

You're kidding right?  Because that's where the Alliance parliament was founded - on Earth - before colonization.  The Alliance had to start out as the nations working together to get anywhere.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

One of my most prominent concerns is Earth becoming the focal point of the trilogy, with humans being the race of importance. In essence ME3 would be your cliched shooter story that has been beaten to death. I, therefore, remain hopeful Earth is destroyed relatively early. If BioWare desires the unique approach, that would be a phenomenal way to accomplish it.

Nothing personal, but wow am I glad you aren't designing this game.

No offense taken. You are entitled to your opinion as I am mine own.

Almostfaceman wrote...

It's a false choice between "cliche" and "what Bourne Endevour suggested".  There are other alternatives.  If you think having the Earth destroyed in Act 3 is a good idea - more power to ya.  I couldn't disagree more.  I see it pissing off more people (myself included) than not.  That's just my opinion.

I doubt they would response with any more hostility than the VS and Wrex fans. BioWare claims to be willing to take chances, to challenge the status quo. This is their opportunity to attempt something practically no company is ever willing. If they opt to pass on it, they forfeit the right to call themselves original.

jamesp81 wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

One of my most prominent concerns is Earth becoming the focal point of the trilogy, with humans being the race of importance. In essence ME3 would be your cliched shooter story that has been beaten to death. I, therefore, remain hopeful Earth is destroyed relatively early. If BioWare desires the unique approach, that would be a phenomenal way to accomplish it.

Alas, perhaps this trial is empty talk and Shepard goes rogue.

It would be lame if Earth was destroyed without a chance to prevent it.  GrimDark stories can all go burn in hell, as far as I'm concerned.

Perhaps a compromise where half of Earth is destroyed and you can save the other half dependent on choices. I pondered a sacrifice of either Earth or the Citadel however that loses merit, although at least it would be something. Regardless, I find with the trailer provided, it will be contrived and cliche Earth is not in absolute shambles. If Sovereign could obliterate half the Citadel fleet, yet a full legion of Reapers cannot destroy one planet. They lose any significance as a god-like super villain in my opinion.

Nashiktal wrote...

Happy? I'm fine with not happy. Just not the earth being destroyed. It feels just as cliched as saving the galaxy with earth surviving.

Cliche is defined as a particular narrative, which recycles frequently used story arcs or plot devices. They inevitably become redundant and are commonly perceived to be "safe" and unoriginal. There have been numerous exceptions to the rule however the past indicates BioWare is not liable to perform such an undertaking. Thus, I ask you to name me five games in the last decade or so that have see Earth destroyed. The Shin Megami Tensei is the last I recall dabbled in this with the Nocturne entry, wherein the world ended in the first five minutes.

Compare the aforementioned to stories where the campaign to save Earth is the primary objective. We have...

Halo (2, partially 3, ODST, Reach and Wars)
Gears of War (1-3)
Resistance: Fall of Man (1-3)
Killzone (1-3)
Bullet Storm
Fall Out (1-3)

And the list continues. Virtually every game released eventually revolves around Earth; either as the pinnacle point of conflict or where we discover the deus ex machina. Mass Effect thus far as subverted this trope, albeit with bias towards humanity instead. Mass Effect 3 appears to be joining the club.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 01 avril 2011 - 09:22 .

[Almostfaceman]

Nashiktal wrote...

I read every single word in your post. Not once does it say that the Parliament has to be made of Earth politicians.

In fact what you posted just further cements that the Alliance is moving away from Earth.

"Humans have expanded rapidly from Earth in a very short period of time, becoming swiftly integrated into Citadel society and the galactic economy."

And large parts of your post is actually speculation from the ME wiki, not the in game codex.

You can blah blah blah about the wiki all you want, there's nothing in it that contradicts the codex.  I've made my argument - believe or don't believe - it's there for all to see.

[Zulu_DFA]

Even if Earth is to be considered part of the Systems Alliance, the capital is still the Arcturus Station.

Hackett's "when Earth calls" line still sounds like "when California calls" instead of "when Washington calls", said to a US officer, who just blew up a hundred-too-many Iraqi civilians.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 avril 2011 - 09:27 .

[Nashiktal]

Nothing in there that contradicts the codex? You are pulling information out of your ass this time. It is SPECULATION. As in THEY ARE GUESSING, not only are they guessing... THEY ARNT EVEN MAKING A DEFINITIVE ARGUMENT.

Generally, when you see the words UNKNOWN, a little warning bell should go off in your head. Your not even trying to hang onto credibility now.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 01 avril 2011 - 09:28 .

[Almostfaceman]

Nashiktal wrote...

Nothing in there that contradicts the codex? You are pulling information out of your ass this time. It is SPECULATION. As in THEY ARE GUESSING, not only are they guessing... THEY ARNT EVEN MAKING A DEFINITIVE ARGUMENT.

Generally, when you see the words UNKNOWN, a little warning bell should go off in your head. Your not even trying to hand onto credibility now.

Point at where in the codex the wiki is wrong about how the governement is made up.  Then we can discuss it.  Until then.... calm down dude.

[Leonia]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

While the Alliance is a supranational government, the member nations retain their individual sovereignty back on Earth.

Separate.

No, they're joined with the Alliance - they make up the parliament.  Just because the Alliance doesn't go to Canada and regulate taxes doesn't mean there isn't a vital connection between Canada and the Alliance.

System Alliance Parliament has an Earth representative, an Elysium representative, a Horizon representative, a Mindoir reprenstative.. it does not have a United North American States representative, Chinese People's Republic representative, European representative, Asian Pacific representative. Earth, on its own, is NOT united. The codex entry clearly states it is made of DIVIDED nation-states. The government of the Alliance doesn't have the same infighting problems because after Shanxi it started to build its own fleet and protect humanity as one cohesive unit. Outside Arcturus Station, Earth behaves NO differently than any other human-colonised world. There is no United Nations of Earth government. Hell, the colonies are probably more united than Earth is, having learned from Earth's mistakes.

[Almostfaceman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Even if Earth is to be considered part of the Systems Alliance, the capital is still the Arcturus Station.

Hackett's "when Earth calls" line still sounds like "when California calls" instead of "when Washington calls", said to a US officer, who just blew up a hundred-too-many Iraqi civilians.

It is possible the trial will be on Arcturus.  I just don't agree with you that it is a "plot hole" for the trial to be on Earth - for reasons stated earlier.

[Almostfaceman]

leonia42 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

While the Alliance is a supranational government, the member nations retain their individual sovereignty back on Earth.

Separate.

No, they're joined with the Alliance - they make up the parliament.  Just because the Alliance doesn't go to Canada and regulate taxes doesn't mean there isn't a vital connection between Canada and the Alliance.

System Alliance Parliament has an Earth representative, an Elysium representative, a Horizon representative, a Mindoir reprenstative.. it does not have a United North American States representative, Chinese People's Republic representative, European representative, Asian Pacific representative. Earth, on its own, is NOT united. The codex entry clearly states it is made of DIVIDED nation-states. The government of the Alliance doesn't have the same infighting problems because after Shanxi it started to build its own fleet and protect humanity as one cohesive unit. Outside Arcturus Station, Earth behaves NO differently than any other human-colonised world. There is no United Nations of Earth government. Hell, the colonies are probably more united than Earth is, having learned from Earth's mistakes.

It has whatever nation-states were involved in its formation before there was a Mindoir, an Elysium, a Horizon, etc.  Earth nations were first in the formation of the Alliance.  Colonies came later.

[Leonia]

That is in the past Almostfaceman, you're still looking at things as if the other colonies don't exist. This is the year 2186, not 2148 when we just discovered Mass Effect fields. Humanity is no longer focused around Earth, they originated there. They branched out. They gained colonies and resources from elsewhere. The Alliance grew in power and influence. At the time of ME3, the Alliance rules humanity. Not Earth.

I am also in full agreement with Bourne Endeavour, I'm tired of Earth being so awesome. Bioware has always been great at busting tropes and trying new things out. Let's hope that trend continues.

Modifié par leonia42, 01 avril 2011 - 09:35 .

[Nashiktal]

I already told you. Remember where it says unknown? That is user input separate from the codex. Speculation, as in unofficial, and it isn't even a argument. It is an observation about lack of data.

"it is unknown whether the Prime Minister is an elected member of Parliament, or is appointed to the position. " Is not in the codex for example.

You copy-pasted this from a wiki page. This is all user inputted data. The Wiki isn't a codex unless it is a direct transcript of the codex. The wiki pages often use "embellishments" or other bits and pieces of "user interpreted" input.

[Almostfaceman]

leonia42 wrote...

That is in the past Almostfaceman, you're still looking at things as if the other colonies don't exist. This is the year 2186, not 2148 when we just discovered Mass Effect fields. Humanity is no longer focused around Earth, they originated there. They branched out. They gained colonies and resources from elsewhere. The Alliance grew in power and influence. At the time of ME3, the Alliance rules humanity. Not Earth.

Look, you can believe the wiki or not - that's up to you.  It clearly lays it out that the parliament is made up of the nation states of Earth, then also the nation states of the colonies.  I've linked my source. If you can find sources that contradict the wiki - more power to ya.  I'm sure it will make for interesting discussion.

[Almostfaceman]

Nashiktal wrote...

I already told you. Remember where it says unknown? That is user input separate from the codex. Speculation, as in unofficial, and it isn't even a argument. It is an observation about lack of data.

"it is unknown whether the Prime Minister is an elected member of Parliament, or is appointed to the position. " Is not in the codex for example.

You copy-pasted this from a wiki page. This is all user inputted data. The Wiki isn't a codex unless it is a direct transcript of the codex. The wiki pages often use "embellishments" or other bits and pieces of "user interpreted" input.

You don't believe the wikii - fine.  Find alternative sources and make your case.  Will make an interesting debate.  Until then, I see no reason not to believe the wiki.

[Nashiktal]

I just told you! Boot up your ME1 game, look at your codex entry for the alliance, and you will see the difference.

Alternative sources are unneeded, go to THE source.

[Almostfaceman]

Nashiktal wrote...

I just told you! Boot up your ME1 game, look at your codex entry for the alliance, and you will see the difference.

Alternative sources are unneeded, go to THE source.

I have.  I see nothing that contradicts the supranational government parliament of the Alliance or anything else on the wiki.  Have you?  Feel free to share.

[Leonia]

I think you need to look up what supernational means.

For what it's worth, if you do go to the Codex section of the ME Wiki, those are word-for-word accurate based on the in-game codex entries. The Wiki community is adamant about keeping those pristine.

Modifié par leonia42, 01 avril 2011 - 09:46 .

[Almostfaceman]

leonia42 wrote...

I think you need to look up with supernational means.

Not supernational - supranational - and it means:

Extending beyond or transcending established borders or spheres of influence held by separate nations -

which is the perfect definition for Earth's nations coming together and forming the parliament of the Alliance.

[Nashiktal]

What? Thats what I and a few other have been arguing about with you this whole time. We showed you direct codex sources to prove it as well.

I was telling you to stop copy pasting directly from the wiki, as they are user input and can be different from the wiki. Especially since all the info on earth parliament was speculation, with no actual data.

Even if it was fact, if you look at everything past "later" in your previous post, it shows the Alliance going further from Earth, and becoming the "government" of humanity.

[Zulu_DFA]

Almostfaceman wrote...

It has whatever nation-states were involved in its formation before there was a Mindoir, an Elysium, a Horizon, etc.  Earth nations were first in the formation of the Alliance.  Colonies came later.

Wrong. Many colonies (including Shanxi, Terra Nova, and Eden Prime) were founded before the Alliance became independent and formed the Parliament. The Alliance governed them and answered to its founders on Earth. Then the FCW happened, and the Alliance went rogue, namely engaged the Turians and took back Shanxi without authourization from Earth. Then the Alliance showed Earth the finger and formed its own parliament. In other words, it became an independent state.

Never once in the game or in the Codex it is said that Earth even sends any kind of official representatives to the Parliament of the Systems Alliance.

And, BTW, Horizon was never part of the Alliance.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 avril 2011 - 09:57 .