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[Nashiktal]

Almostfaceman wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

I think you need to look up with supernational means.

Not supernational - supranational - and it means:

Extending beyond or transcending established borders or spheres of influence held by separate nations -

which is the perfect definition for Earth's nations coming together and forming the parliament of the Alliance.

Snort/ The earth nations are not together. They are still separate. The Alliance rules over humanity. The north american alliance rules over... North America.

[Almostfaceman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

It has whatever nation-states were involved in its formation before there was a Mindoir, an Elysium, a Horizon, etc.  Earth nations were first in the formation of the Alliance.  Colonies came later.

Wrong. Many colonies (including Shanxi, Terra Nova, and Eden Prime) were founded before the Alliance became independent and formed the Parliament. The Alliance governed them and answered to its founders on Earth. Then the FCW happened, and the Alliance went rogue, namely engaged the Turians and took back Shanxi without authourization from Earth. Then the Alliance showed Earth the finger and formed its own parliament.

Never once in the game or in the Codex it is said that Earth even sends any kind of official representatives to the parliament of the Systems Alliance.

And, BTW, Horizon was never part of the Alliance.

Wrong, the Alliance was formed by the nations BEFORE they evolved into the entity they are today.  You're forgetting the system alliance charter. The nations did not lose their representation when the Alliance set up its independence.

An omission of the codex is not evidence against anything in the wiki - look for contradictions.

[Leonia]

It's like talking to brick wall, isn't it?

[Leonia]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Wrong, the Alliance was formed by the nations BEFORE they evolved into the entity they are today.  You're forgetting the system alliance charter. The nations did not lose their representation when the Alliance set up its independence.

An omission of the codex is not evidence against anything in the wiki - look for contradictions.

Wait, where is this System Alliance charter? I'd very much like to read that..

[Almostfaceman]

Nashiktal wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

I think you need to look up with supernational means.

Not supernational - supranational - and it means:

Extending beyond or transcending established borders or spheres of influence held by separate nations -

which is the perfect definition for Earth's nations coming together and forming the parliament of the Alliance.

Snort/ The earth nations are not together. They are still separate. The Alliance rules over humanity. The north american alliance rules over... North America.

The earth nations involved in the parliament are not at war and they obviously can work together yet remain soveriegn nations.  We do it with, say, Canada, all the time.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 01 avril 2011 - 09:57 .

[Almostfaceman]

leonia42 wrote...

It's like talking to brick wall, isn't it?

The feeling is mutual.

[Leonia]

Almostfaceman wrote...

The earth nations involved in the parliament are not at war and they obviously can work together yet remain soveriegn nations.  We do it with, say, Canada, all the time.

And in the year 2186, Canada doesn't exist as its own nation. It is a piece of the United North American States. Which, you know, governs its own territory and not the rest of human civilisation beyond Earth.

[Almostfaceman]

leonia42 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

The earth nations involved in the parliament are not at war and they obviously can work together yet remain soveriegn nations.  We do it with, say, Canada, all the time.

And in the year 2186, Canada doesn't exist as its own nation. It is a piece of the United North American States. Which, you know, governs its own territory and not the rest of human civilisation beyond Earth.

Irrelevent, Canada was merely used as an example.  I could have typed "United North American States" and it would not have my changed the point I was making.

[Lucy Glitter]

Watching Almostfaceman try to form a coherent and logical argument is like watching a fly slowly die from being poisoned with repellent.

Just. Plain. Sad.

[Zulu_DFA]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Wrong, the Alliance was formed by the nations BEFORE they evolved into the entity they are today.

Thatnks, Captain Obvious, but I never doubted that.

Almostfaceman wrote...

You're forgetting the system alliance charter.

No, I'm not.

The nations did not lose their representation when the Alliance set up its independence.

Yes, they did, because it's what happens when new political entities gain independence.

The Systems Alliance Charter had no clause about the Alliance having a parliament. After 2157, the Alliance has got a parliament. Something tells me, the Charter is history and nothing more now.

Almostfaceman wrote...

An omission of the codex is not evidence against anything in the wiki - look for contradictions.

So if MEWiki now pulls something out of its ass, like, IDK, that there are Ewoks on one of the planets in the ME unverse, and the Codex doesn't say there isn't, it somehow is a part of the canon?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 avril 2011 - 10:08 .

[Almostfaceman]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]Almostfaceman wrote...

Wrong, the Alliance was formed by the nations BEFORE they evolved into the entity they are today.
[/quote]
Thatnks, Captain Obvious, but I never doubted that.


[quote]Almostfaceman wrote...

You're forgetting the system alliance charter.
[/quote]
No, I'm not.

The nations did not lose their representation when the Alliance set up its independence.
[/quote]
Yes they did, because it's what happens when new ploitical entities gain independence.

The Systems Alliance Charter had no clause about the Alliance having a parliament. After 2157, the Alliance has got a parliament. Something tells me the Charter is history and nothing more now.


[quote]Almostfaceman wrote...

An omission of the codex is not evidence against anything in the wiki - look for contradictions.
[/quote]
So if MEWiki now pulls something out of its ass, like, IDK, that there are Ewoks on one of the planets in the ME unverse, and the Codex doesn't say there isn't, it's somehow is a part of the canon?[/quote]

Just prove it pulled it out of its ass, and we're all good.  Otherwise it's your word against the wiki - and I'll take the wiki's word over yours.  Same with any other point you just made.

P.S.  So, you're saying you can PROVE that the wiki is full of crap about the 18 nations - or any number of earth nations - still being a part of the "current" Alliance parliament?  If you can, and it's not just your opinion about what happened, feel free to slap it down.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 01 avril 2011 - 10:11 .

[Leonia]

The wiki IS fan-ran, it is not maintained by Bioware. Most of the information is accurate but it is always good to remember where the information comes from.

Is there an entry about the Earth nations other than the Earth Codex Entry? 'Cause I can't find it. Doesn't look like you can prove they are represented in the Parliament in the year 2186.

Modifié par leonia42, 01 avril 2011 - 10:14 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Just prove it pulled it out of its ass, and we're all good.  Otherwise it's your word against the wiki - and I'll take the wiki's word over yours.  Same with any other point you just made.

It's not in the game = pulled out of ass.

You see, normal Wikis (like the Wikipedia, of the StarCraft Wiki) use references to the sources where they take information from. The MEWiki never bothers with that - that's clear indication that there are a lot of pulling out of ass going on there. All it's good for is the verbatim material, such as planet descriptions.

Almostfaceman wrote...

P.S.  So, you're saying you can PROVE that the wiki is full of crap about the 18 nations - or any number of earth nations - still being a part of the "current" Alliance parliament?  If you can, and it's not just your opinion about what happened, feel free to slap it down.

I obviously can't prove that the 18 nations aren't "still" part of the Alliance Parliament, seeing how we are never told that those 18 nations have ever been part of the Alliance Parliament.

Sure, the 18 nations founded the Alliance. Then the Alliance grew up and became independent. Why would the Alliance let those nations into any decision making at Arcturus?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 avril 2011 - 10:36 .

[Zeratul20]

While I mean no offence to either of you, I'd just like to point this out: you guys DO realise you're all ranting about a fictional situation, concerning the judicial authority of a fictional government compared to the authority of quite a few OTHER fictional governments, etc, right?

While Bioware usually does a good job at fleshing out their settings, I don't think it's necessary to have such long-winded, slightly heated debates about it... It's just a story.

Modifié par Zeratul20, 01 avril 2011 - 10:22 .

[Leonia]

Zeratul20 wrote...

While I mean no offence to either of you, I'd just like to point this out: you guys DO realise you're all ranting about a fictional situation, concerning the judicial authority of a fictional government compared to the authority of quite a few OTHER fictional governments, etc, right?

While Bioware usually does a good job at fleshing out their settings, I don't think it's necessary to have such long-winded, slightly heated debates about it... It's just a story.

This is serious business! But yeah, I will acknowledge we've put a bit too much energy into this debate. Still, it does prove that healthy debates can still occur on the BSN without devolving into fits of "FIRE THE WRITERS" or "EA IS EVIL" or "THIS GAME IS BETTER THAN THAT GAME". I'm quite proud of the civility that has been kept with this discussion, even when people have vehemently disagreed with one another. Well-done, everybody. Except for those who were wrong (j/k!).

Modifié par leonia42, 01 avril 2011 - 10:41 .

[Zeratul20]

leonia42 wrote...
This is serious business! But yeah, I will acknowledge we've put a bit too much energy into this debate. Still, it does prove that healthy debates can still occur on the BSN without devolving into fits of "FIRE THE WRITERS" or "EA IS EVIL" or "THIS GAME IS BETTER THAN THAT GAME". I'm quite proud of the civility that has been kept with this discussion, even when people have vehemently disagreed with one another. Well-done, everybody. Except for those who were wrong (j/k!).

True enough! Seriously, though, you ought to compare these forums to some of the other game-specific (non-Bioware) forums. It's actually quite nice and friendly, over here.

[azerSheppard]

How about this: It's symbolic.

or maybe the writers wanted a way to tie into ME3 intro xd

[Soapy010]

I agree it doesn't make much sense, but I still like the setting for ME3 that way Shepard goes one-man-wulfpack

[Ice Cold J]

Mesina2 wrote...

I think the Council would more then happy to revoke Shepard's Specter status after what happen on Arrival.


And for the rest, where's the plothole?

Why? Spectre's are above the law, authorized to use whatever means necessary to get the job done.

Theoretically, by the time ME3 rolls around, The Reapers will be here and everyone will see what Shep did was necessary.

[88mphSlayer]

if i wanted to throw a bone to the batarians through politically embarrassing your race's biggest hero... earth would be the logical place to do it

Shepard left the "just a soldier" territory a long time ago

[Thompson family]

Wow.

As I said about six pages ago, the court of competent jurisdiction for this kind of case could be anywhere. Not every trial for every massive federal criminal complaint that falls under the jurisdiction of the United States', Russian, Chinese or British governments is tried in Washington, Moscow, Peking or London, respectively.

Unless the Codex includes some guidelines to Alliance judicial procedure, this thread is navel gazing.

[Zulu_DFA]

To start with, as long as Shepard isn't a Spectre, he is an Alliance Marine. Therefore, only the Alliance military can try him. That means the Arcturus Station. Any other location would require an elaborate justification, which Admiral Hackett failed to present in the "Arrival" DLC.

[Wereparrot]

Aelia wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

OGWS wrote...

Orkboy wrote...

What I don't understand is that this shouldn't be going to trial anyway.

Shepard was on a covert mission that only she and Hackett knew about.

Sure the Normandy picked Shepard up at the end, but the crew has no Idea what happened before that and the Batarians can't know exactly what happened because those that saw Shepard and might have worked it out are all dead.

So unless Shepard or Hackett tells exactly what happened ( and why would they, it was a black op and never took place ) then nobody should go to trial.

Technically Shepard and Hackett can write any reports on the matter to reflect Shepard as having nothing to do with it.

Yeah, seriously, how the hell does anyone know it was Shepard?

Aw, c'mon.  You know it's so easy for them to manufacture something.  The SR2 approached a batarian planet.  It didn't trigger any auto defenses, but maybe a defense satellite snapped a pic that just happened to catch the SR2 passing by... the pic gets sent to Hegemony HQ, and later some clerk runs across it when investigating what happened to their lost system.  I just made that up, it's perfectly plausible, I'm sure other reasons can be manufactured.

Well yeah, there is potential evidence that could link Shepherd, but precious little that could convict him.

Again, you are not considering who and what was on the shuttle that escaped.  Bioware can use that as a vehicle to manufacture whatever direct evidence they want.  The people on the station KNEW Shepard was there and had been there for days.  They could have actual security footage of her/him activating the "project"... someone else has already mentioned the possibility of tampering with her/his attempt to warn the Baterians... it would be relatively easy for BW to generate all the evidence needed to convict her/him if that's their intention

Oh, but I have. If you read the relevant posts, you would know that I gave a theory that the paragon/renegade actions in the decision of whether or not to warn the populace may yet have a profound consequence for Shepherd, even though he was interrupted. I said that if you at least attempted to warn the colony, then maybe the consequences for Shepherd will be more favourable than if you didn't bother. I said that it is possible that people heard that Shepherd was cut off, and put two and two together when they saw the proximity of the relay to the asteroid.

Futhermore, I said the the people on this shutlle could be anyone, and that if they were criminals, then their word against Shepherd isn't exactly worth much.

The fact that people on the colony knew that Shepherd was there is irrelevant, really. What were they doing? Certainly not trying to communicate with the outside world, but rather they were trying to kill Shepherd. Anyway, they had no idea that Shepherd was going to regain conciousness. From then on, however, their top priority would've been to stop Shepherd, and certainly not to try to bring a criminal case against him. As far as remote surveilance goes: well, once the pictures have been taken, then what? All surveilance goes directly to the Council, does it? Anyway, don't you think that the batarians would want to sort their own problem out? From the time Shepherd wakes up to the time of the collision is a matter of hours at most. They would never go running to the Council within that time frame. 

Modifié par Wereparrot, 01 avril 2011 - 04:32 .

[The Smoking Man]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

To start with, as long as Shepard isn't a Spectre, he is an Alliance Marine. Therefore, only the Alliance military can try him. That means the Arcturus Station. Any other location would require an elaborate justification, which Admiral Hackett failed to present in the "Arrival" DLC.

Hackett could've assumed that Shepard knows how the politics work and why that's the deal. I get the feeling we won't actually end up getting any proper justification for it, though.