1529 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

The Smoking Man wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

To start with, as long as Shepard isn't a Spectre, he is an Alliance Marine. Therefore, only the Alliance military can try him. That means the Arcturus Station. Any other location would require an elaborate justification, which Admiral Hackett failed to present in the "Arrival" DLC.

Hackett could've assumed that Shepard knows how the politics work and why that's the deal. I get the feeling we won't actually end up getting any proper justification for it, though.

The problem is that the politics work against Earth. Throughout this thread it's been pointed out multiple times that in the ME universe Earth has been on its way to the "Insignificant Blue Planet" trope ever since the FCW and the Systems Alliance de facto independence.

Moreover, in the deafult ME2 (Old Council dead, Udina presiding in the New one), it's even more extreme, since Humanity has virtually taken over the Citadel itself.

And now the writers want to retcon things and sell us the "Earth is Special" trope without any other reason than "amping things up" and making them "personal".

Of course, it's cool when things are amped up and personal, but only if that is determined by the in-universe reasons and logical story development. But if it's just so blatantly thrown at the audience, it'll have the opposite effect.

[Wereparrot]

For the record, I think that it would make more sense for Shepherd to face a batarian court, if all we are concerned about is the events of Arrival. It is nothing to do with the Council, and I don't see why Earth should, having considered the circumstances, and considering that most people actually aware of the Reaper threat are humans, be interested in a trial. I know I'm not. I can see an appeal by the batarians for Shepherd's extradition being heard on Earth, but then I can also see the case being thrown out.

The issue of Shepherd's other 'misdemeanors' are a matter for the Council, but I think an inquest would suffice, and a reprimand if the Council sees fit, and not a trial.

[Mavkiel]

Or she is a member of a council race, committed an act of terrorism against a non council race. Under those conditions, citadel law may apply. *shrugs* It'd make sense for them reserve some rights to protect themselves from diplomatic fallout. However, it would reflect poorly on earth if they have to invoke that law.

So instead alliance caves in, holds a real trial and lets everyone listen in . See how great earth justice is? Nothing to see here, move along.

[GuardianAngel470]

leonia42 wrote...

The wiki IS fan-ran, it is not maintained by Bioware. Most of the information is accurate but it is always good to remember where the information comes from.

Is there an entry about the Earth nations other than the Earth Codex Entry? 'Cause I can't find it. Doesn't look like you can prove they are represented in the Parliament in the year 2186.

Just a thought, I'm not really taking a side since I've stated my opinion, but if you take this statement to its logical conclusion, ie determining what is believable due to the presence of inaccuracies, then you would also need to take everything in the Codex with a grain of salt, something I have not seen throughout this thread.

Both sides tout codex entries as fact, attempting to use them to prove the others wrong, when in fact there are several inaccuracies within the Codex, both intentional and accidental. These inaccuracies undermine the believability of everything else by your logic.

Things that are stated in game dialog as truth is contradicted by the Codex. It has been a while since I read the entire codex so I can't easily give you an example but in my opinion, dialog trumps the Codex.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 01 avril 2011 - 05:06 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Wereparrot wrote...

The issue of Shepherd's other 'misdemeanors' are a matter for the Council, but I think an inquest would suffice, and a reprimand if the Council sees fit, and not a trial.

Shepard, why did you kill Tela Vasir?

She was bad.

O yeah? All right then. But you shouldn't have done it in public, smack you!

[Wereparrot]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

The issue of Shepherd's other 'misdemeanors' are a matter for the Council, but I think an inquest would suffice, and a reprimand if the Council sees fit, and not a trial.

Shepard, why did you kill Tela Vasir?

She was bad.

That's the theory, yeah. You can call it murder if you like, but I call it justice.

[Almostfaceman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

The issue of Shepherd's other 'misdemeanors' are a matter for the Council, but I think an inquest would suffice, and a reprimand if the Council sees fit, and not a trial.

Shepard, why did you kill Tela Vasir?

She was bad.

O yeah? All right then. But you shouldn't have done it in public, smack you!

I'm not sure why Vasir would be a problem for Shepard.  In public, it's clear Shep tries to arrest her, Vasir holds a hostage, then when she loses the hostage she attacks.  Anything after that is self defense.

Anything before that is "I tried to arrest her for X and she attacked".  Totally true.  They could even hook one of them fancy lie detector doohickey's to Shep to verify.

[Zulu_DFA]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...


Things that are stated in game dialog as truth is contradicted by the Codex. It has been a while since I read the entire codex so I can't easily give you an example but in my opinion, dialog trumps the Codex.

It depends on the subject. Sure, the Codex is inaccurate about the Protheans, Reapers, Cerberus and other "ancient" and "secret" stuff. But there is no doubt that it's pretty accurate as far as the official standing ot the Systems Alliance goes.

So as it says the Alliance is independent, and its capital is the Arcturus Station, I can't see any room for the "grain of salt" here, especially since these facts are not contradicted by any dialogue.

[Zulu_DFA]

Wereparrot wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

The issue of Shepherd's other 'misdemeanors' are a matter for the Council, but I think an inquest would suffice, and a reprimand if the Council sees fit, and not a trial.

Shepard, why did you kill Tela Vasir?

She was bad.

That's the theory, yeah. You can call it murder if you like, but I call it justice.

Whatever you call it is irrelevant. What is relevant is what the Council calls it. And something tells me, Vasir had a better standing with the Council than you at the moment of her untimely demise.

[Bebbe777]

Nashiktal wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

I think you need to look up with supernational means.

Not supernational - supranational - and it means:

Extending beyond or transcending established borders or spheres of influence held by separate nations -

which is the perfect definition for Earth's nations coming together and forming the parliament of the Alliance.

Snort/ The earth nations are not together. They are still separate. The Alliance rules over humanity. The north american alliance rules over... North America.

Yupp, the Systems Alliance has authority over most human colonies. This give them a lot of power but that power is based on voluntary participation by the most advanced countries on Earth. The Alliance have a president and parliament, North America have a president and so forth. Its no Federation like in Star Trek. More a Confederation where states go together for the purpose of defense, foreign relations and trade. 

[Nashiktal]

Especially considering she was completely legitimate in her dealing with the shadow broker. She was a specter, and unlike saren who tried to nuke a colony, or shep who blew up a system, she better represents what sort of immunity a specter might use. She is a good example as to why the council likes to look away as to what specters are doing.

[Zulu_DFA]

Bebbe777 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

I think you need to look up with supernational means.

Not supernational - supranational - and it means:

Extending beyond or transcending established borders or spheres of influence held by separate nations -

which is the perfect definition for Earth's nations coming together and forming the parliament of the Alliance.

Snort/ The earth nations are not together. They are still separate. The Alliance rules over humanity. The north american alliance rules over... North America.

Yupp, the Systems Alliance has authority over most human colonies. This give them a lot of power but that power is based on voluntary participation by the most advanced countries on Earth. The Alliance have a president and parliament, North America have a president and so forth. Its no Federation like in Star Trek. More a Confederation where states go together for the purpose of defense, foreign relations and trade. 

The Alliance has the Ambassador to the Citadel, and, since 2183, the Councillor(s).  North America does not.

The Alliance is not a federation, nor a confederacy. It's an empire, just like the Citadel Council.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 avril 2011 - 05:29 .

[OGWS]

this thread makes me laugh. Everyone will forget about it in a few months anyway, once more systems start burnin'

[Wereparrot]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

The issue of Shepherd's other 'misdemeanors' are a matter for the Council, but I think an inquest would suffice, and a reprimand if the Council sees fit, and not a trial.

Shepard, why did you kill Tela Vasir?

She was bad.

That's the theory, yeah. You can call it murder if you like, but I call it justice.

Whatever you call it is irrelevant. What is relevant is what the Council calls it. And something tells me, Vasir had a better standing with the Council than you at the moment of her untimely demise.

I know I'm being idealistic. If the Council wants to try Shepherd for any number of things, that is essentially their decision; Alliance/Cerberus/Earth interference notwithstanding. I imagine that the Council would be very much interested in the death of Vasir, but what they would make of any evidence and statements from those directly involved prior to a trial remains to be seen.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 01 avril 2011 - 05:38 .

[piemanz]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bebbe777 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

I think you need to look up with supernational means.

Not supernational - supranational - and it means:

Extending beyond or transcending established borders or spheres of influence held by separate nations -

which is the perfect definition for Earth's nations coming together and forming the parliament of the Alliance.

Snort/ The earth nations are not together. They are still separate. The Alliance rules over humanity. The north american alliance rules over... North America.

Yupp, the Systems Alliance has authority over most human colonies. This give them a lot of power but that power is based on voluntary participation by the most advanced countries on Earth. The Alliance have a president and parliament, North America have a president and so forth. Its no Federation like in Star Trek. More a Confederation where states go together for the purpose of defense, foreign relations and trade. 

The Alliance has the Ambassador to the Citadel, and, since 2183, the Councillor(s).  North America does not.

The Alliance is not a federation, nor a confederacy. It's an empire, just like the Citadel Council.

It' still amazes me that you can't grasp the fact the the Systems Alliance is a human Alliance with Earth being the human homeworld.How you can honestly beleive that earth is not of still very significant importance is beyond me.

[Nashiktal]

piemanz wrote...



It' still amazes me that you can't grasp the fact the the Systems Alliance is a human Alliance with Earth being the human homeworld.How you can honestly beleive that earth is not of still very significant importance is beyond me.

No we grasp that. That is all Earth is. The human homeworld, the starting point. However that is all Earth is. One big, non-resource producing "colony" that eats most of the resources sent to it, and continues to have individual nations bicker among themselves.

Earth is the Emperer to Japan's Shogun. The Queen to britains modern-day parliment.

[piemanz]

Nashiktal wrote...

piemanz wrote...



It' still amazes me that you can't grasp the fact the the Systems Alliance is a human Alliance with Earth being the human homeworld.How you can honestly beleive that earth is not of still very significant importance is beyond me.

No we grasp that. That is all Earth is. The human homeworld, the starting point. However that is all Earth is. One big, non-resource producing "colony" that eats most of the resources sent to it, and continues to have individual nations bicker among themselves.

Earth is the Emperer to Japan's Shogun. The Queen to britains modern-day parliment.

You're missing the point completely.You can quote codex all day.Earth is the motherland of humanity, commander shepard THE most famaous HUMAN in the galaxy is going on trial and you beleive it makes no sense to hold it on earth?.

Modifié par piemanz, 01 avril 2011 - 05:51 .

[Wereparrot]

Nashiktal wrote...

piemanz wrote...



It' still amazes me that you can't grasp the fact the the Systems Alliance is a human Alliance with Earth being the human homeworld.How you can honestly beleive that earth is not of still very significant importance is beyond me.

No we grasp that. That is all Earth is. The human homeworld, the starting point. However that is all Earth is. One big, non-resource producing "colony" that eats most of the resources sent to it, and continues to have individual nations bicker among themselves.

Earth is the Emperer to Japan's Shogun. The Queen to britains modern-day parliment.

Just to clarify: the queen still theoreticaly holds significant power. She retains power to dismiss the prime minister and disolve parliament, thus making her higher than the government.

[GuardianAngel470]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...


Things that are stated in game dialog as truth is contradicted by the Codex. It has been a while since I read the entire codex so I can't easily give you an example but in my opinion, dialog trumps the Codex.

It depends on the subject. Sure, the Codex is inaccurate about the Protheans, Reapers, Cerberus and other "ancient" and "secret" stuff. But there is no doubt that it's pretty accurate as far as the official standing ot the Systems Alliance goes.

So as it says the Alliance is independent, and its capital is the Arcturus Station, I can't see any room for the "grain of salt" here, especially since these facts are not contradicted by any dialogue.

This makes no logical sense. You can't claim that the wiki is a poor source because it is sometimes inaccurate in some places and then say that the Codex is irrefutable in the circumstances of the Alliance despite the fact that it is also inaccurate in some places other than the the history stuff (the Thanix Cannon entry is a good example of a numerical inconsistency that forces the player to choose between spoken words and text in the same entry).

This would be you just accepting that which supports your argument and denying everything else. That is philosophically fallacious.

[GuardianAngel470]

Wereparrot wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

piemanz wrote...



It' still amazes me that you can't grasp the fact the the Systems Alliance is a human Alliance with Earth being the human homeworld.How you can honestly beleive that earth is not of still very significant importance is beyond me.

No we grasp that. That is all Earth is. The human homeworld, the starting point. However that is all Earth is. One big, non-resource producing "colony" that eats most of the resources sent to it, and continues to have individual nations bicker among themselves.

Earth is the Emperer to Japan's Shogun. The Queen to britains modern-day parliment.

Just to clarify: the queen still theoreticaly holds significant power. She retains power to dismiss the prime minister and disolve parliament, thus making her higher than the government.

And the Emperor of Japan ended WWII not the government. After Nagasaki and Hiroshima the Emperor countermanded the desire of the military to fight to the bitter end and surrendered.

Both of your examples were poorly chosen.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 01 avril 2011 - 05:57 .

[GuardianAngel470]

OGWS wrote...

this thread makes me laugh. Everyone will forget about it in a few months anyway, once more systems start burnin'

Very true.

[Nashiktal]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

piemanz wrote...



It' still amazes me that you can't grasp the fact the the Systems Alliance is a human Alliance with Earth being the human homeworld.How you can honestly beleive that earth is not of still very significant importance is beyond me.

No we grasp that. That is all Earth is. The human homeworld, the starting point. However that is all Earth is. One big, non-resource producing "colony" that eats most of the resources sent to it, and continues to have individual nations bicker among themselves.

Earth is the Emperer to Japan's Shogun. The Queen to britains modern-day parliment.

Just to clarify: the queen still theoreticaly holds significant power. She retains power to dismiss the prime minister and disolve parliament, thus making her higher than the government.

And the Emperor of Japan ended WWII not the government. After Nagasaki and Hiroshima the Emperor countermanded the desire of the military to fight to the bitter end and surrendered.

Both of your examples were poorly chosen.

The qeen can't do anything and you know it. Technical power that can't be used is just as good as no power. The royal family is just a bunch of celeberities that do not do much outside of diplomacy.

The emperor didn't stop the way, he only announced it. Which, by the way, came after a near coup in the government, the destruction of their main fighting forces on land and sea. The japanese goverment itself wasn't in any actual shape to do anything.

My analogies still stand.

[Zulu_DFA]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...


Things that are stated in game dialog as truth is contradicted by the Codex. It has been a while since I read the entire codex so I can't easily give you an example but in my opinion, dialog trumps the Codex.

It depends on the subject. Sure, the Codex is inaccurate about the Protheans, Reapers, Cerberus and other "ancient" and "secret" stuff. But there is no doubt that it's pretty accurate as far as the official standing ot the Systems Alliance goes.

So as it says the Alliance is independent, and its capital is the Arcturus Station, I can't see any room for the "grain of salt" here, especially since these facts are not contradicted by any dialogue.

This makes no logical sense. You can't claim that the wiki is a poor source because it is sometimes inaccurate

MEWiki is a poor source, because it doesn't use references to the primary sources, meaning any inaccuracy there more often than not derives from pulling stuff out of one's ass.

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

in some places and then say that the Codex is irrefutable in the circumstances of the Alliance despite the fact that it is also inaccurate in some places other than the the history stuff (the Thanix Cannon entry is a good example of a numerical inconsistency that forces the player to choose between spoken words and text in the same entry).

Yes. Where there is some inconsistency, we have to think and choose, and not forget to come to the BSN and make a thread about it. For example, the Galactic Map in ME2 is outright atrotious in this sense, and every other planet description contradicts the previously established lore, or sometimes even the asssociated mission scenario. But Where there is no inconsistency within the game, we have to accept it, and not bring up stuff pulled out of someone's ass on the MEWiki as a contradiction.

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

This would be you just accepting that which supports your argument and denying everything else. That is philosophically fallacious.

The problem with me is that I tend to accept the arguments that are supported and deny those that are not supported. I can't see how this is phylosophically fallacious though.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 avril 2011 - 06:17 .

[Wulfram]

The International Criminal Court in The Hague would seem a logical place for a trial to take place. I see no reason the Alliance would necessarily have withdrawn from it's jurisdiction in the short time it has been in existence.