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Shepard's Trial on Earth??? You must be kidding me... [with poll]


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#551
celuloid

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

And the Arcturus Station codex entry:

Arcturus Station is the gateway to Sol, a 5-kilometer diameter "Stanford Torus"-type space station at the trailing Lagrange point of the gas giant Themis. Construction on Arcturus Station began in 2151 and concluded in 2162. It was inaugurated in 2156, and has served as the military and political headquarters of the Systems Alliance from the First Contact War until the present.

When humanity activated the Charon Mass Relay in 2149, it led to Arcturus, 36 light years from Sol, Earth's sun. Arcturus is the third brightest star seen from Earth. It is an ancient red giant from the generation born before Sol. Its worlds are either gas giants or ice chunks. While some rocky debris exists, the metal content is 25% lower than normal. To build Arcturus Station, metallic asteroids were towed through the mass relays to the construction site. Many of these asteroids remain near the station, their mined out areas home to transient populations.

The expense of bringing construct materials into the system was acceptable due to its strategic value. With three primary mass relays in addition to the secondary one to Sol, Arcturus is a major communications and military chokepoint. The Alliance 1st Fleet is based in Arcturus, where it can guard the gates to Sol and react to incursions in the three connected clusters. The Station also hosts the Systems Alliance Parliament and the Systems Alliance Military general headquarters. Its permanent population is approximately 45,000.

Arcturus is actually from the galactic halo, one of a cluster of 52 stars that are "crashing through" the disc of the galaxy. In a billion years, Arcturus will be sailing through the depths of extragalactic dark space.
umanity is ran by the System Alliance, which is based on Arcturus Station.


Quoted for emphasis.


I hail from Europe and I decided to write something about government institutions in my country, just for you.
We have parliament, president, prime minister (head of government) and bunch of ministers who lead their departments. All of these people and institutions reside in our capital, as does every other government agency and bureau. I wonder if you can guess which important institution I omitted? Yes, our Supreme Court DOES NOT reside in capital city. People, you are not experts in galactic law, just as you are not experts in law system of my country. Stop jumping to conclusions about where trial should take place and leave it to authors.
As you could see, nothing is set in stone in actual life. It is perfectly normal if trial with Shepard won't take place on Arcturus station. Nobody wants to see it anyway. We all wanted to take a look at 22nd century Earth and when they want to show us, a bunch of whiners steps in and fills 20 pages with criticism.

Just for your information:

The Earth is just a piece of molten iron covered with rock and a little H2O. It can't own any problems.

As for the Mankind, as soon as it lefts its "craddle", it'll spread its domain to any such piece of rock it manages to claim, establishing new cultural, economical and political realities that you guys seem to be incapable of grasping, but which any real sci-fi is supposed to be all about. Therefore, it's simply a matter of difference between the good sci-fi, and a cheap moneygrab product.

The Humanity, as a Council race, is supposed to solve its problems via established institutions such as the Council and the Systems Alliance, and not by "going to Earth".


I always imagined humanity as a fledgling species and not masters of the universe. It makes total sense that Earth has still important status, given 3000+ years of own culture compared to ~30 years of alien contact. But perhaps we did not play the same game.

Besides, if someone thinks about Asari center of power, he means Thessia. With Turians, it is Palaven. Not some military space station built in early stages of human expansion to secure foothold, with population of 45000. My neighborhood is larger.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

If Earth is destroyed, humanity is finished as a galactic power.  Done, over, dead, gone.  Bekenstein (the planet you visit in Kasumi's LM) is described as being one of humanity's most populous colonies.  It's population is 5.4 million or so.  You waste Earth, you kill about 98% of the human race.

That's a completely lametacular storyline.

Not true.

The numbers are irrelevant. For example, the Geth are just automated machinery with not a single living operator, and still are quite powerful.

With the Earth purged, the Alliance will come out only stronger, if the major Human colonies and indusrtrial/mining outposts are left unscathed.


Are you comparing us to automatons and military capacity we don't know anything about? You surely wanted to compare us to quarians, who are going slowly extinct after they lost their homeworld.

And Alliance will come out stronger? What are you smoking? I want it too. My point is, 90% of people dead (or more, humanity is still concentrated on Earth) means struggle for survival.

---------------
And BTW, your poll is completely one-sided. You put Earth into obviously inferior position by competing with Citadel and Arcturus Station at the same time. The question should be if people want the trial to take place
1. On Earth
2. On Arcturus station
3. On Citadel
4. On Khar'shan (only if Shepard has been really naughty)
Here is the new poll.

My personal take is that this is purely "rogue Batarian Hegemony vs. Human Alliance" issue. That means Council will not interfere, they are bunch of incompetents anyway. And I don't see Shepard going to Batarian trial, so that leaves only Earth. However, my Shepard is not attending that too.

And I really do not understand all the fuss about this trial. Sure, it would make for a great opening sequence but I think the main plot of ME trilogy is about stopping Reapers, so lets concentrate on that please.

Modifié par celuloid, 01 avril 2011 - 06:39 .


#552
Zulu_DFA

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Wulfram wrote...

The International Criminal Court in The Hague would seem a logical place for a trial to take place. I see no reason the Alliance would necessarily have withdrawn from it's jurisdiction in the short time it has been in existence.

I repeat: even today, in real world, US military personel is not in the ICC's jurisdiction. No US soldier can be ever brought to any kind of trial for any accusation except by the US military authorities, or the unlikely situation if he is taken prisoner of war.

Shepard is a soldier of a fictious space state, that has become independent of any Earth's authority, who commited his allegged crimes in space against other space states and those states subjects.

This ICC in the Hague is utter rubbish.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 avril 2011 - 06:42 .


#553
ErebUs890

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YOU'RE NOT THE WRITER THEREFORE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

/thread

#554
piemanz

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piemanz wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

piemanz wrote...



It' still amazes me that you can't grasp the fact the the Systems Alliance is a human Alliance with Earth being the human homeworld.How you can honestly beleive that earth is not of still very significant importance is beyond me.


No we grasp that. That is all Earth is. The human homeworld, the starting point. However that is all Earth is. One big, non-resource producing "colony" that eats most of the resources sent to it, and continues to have individual nations bicker among themselves.

Earth is the Emperer to Japan's Shogun. The Queen to britains modern-day parliment.


You're missing the point completely.You can quote codex all day.Earth is the motherland of humanity, commander shepard THE most famaous HUMAN in the galaxy is going on trial and you beleive it makes no sense to hold it on earth?.


A simple yes or no will suffice.

#555
Nashiktal

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ErebUs890 wrote...

YOU'RE NOT THE WRITER THEREFORE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

/thread


Problem is that due to a lack of coordination and retcons the writers don't seem to know either.

#556
ErebUs890

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Nashiktal wrote...

ErebUs890 wrote...

YOU'RE NOT THE WRITER THEREFORE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

/thread


Problem is that due to a lack of coordination and retcons the writers don't seem to know either.


Pretty sure they know what they're doing. Fans just like to over analyze everything.

#557
Nashiktal

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ErebUs890 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

ErebUs890 wrote...

YOU'RE NOT THE WRITER THEREFORE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

/thread


Problem is that due to a lack of coordination and retcons the writers don't seem to know either.


Pretty sure they know what they're doing. Fans just like to over analyze everything.


No, there is actual, verifiable proof that there is/was a lack of coordination with the writers. The fifth fleet/first fleet confusion with admiral hackette, and the admiral that does the inspection of the normandy is one example.

Edit: come to think of it, there was confusion between writers and modelers too. The cruisers attacking Sovvy using dreadnought models for example.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 01 avril 2011 - 07:09 .


#558
Wulfram

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

I repeat: even today, in real world, US military personel is not in the ICC's jurisdiction. No US soldier can be ever brought to any kind of trial for any accusation except by the US military authorities, or the unlikely situation if he is taken prisoner of war.

Shepard is a soldier of a fictious space state, that has become independent of any Earth's authority, who commited his allegged crimes in space against other space states and those states subjects.

This ICC in the Hague is utter rubbish.


None of that is a reason for why the Systems Alliance shouldn't still recognise the ICC or a similar bodies jurisdiction for crimes against humanity (or Batarianity, I guess).  Legal systems tend to be pretty conservative, after all.

The most obvious place for the trial to take place would be at the Citadel, but I don't think it's at all difficult to justify it taking place on Earth.  We know little enough about the actual functioning of galactic law to justify pretty much anything, actually.

#559
Nashiktal

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At this point the argument has moved away from the Trail location, and onto how the Alliance separated itself from Earth. :P

#560
Zulu_DFA

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[quote]celuloid wrote...

I hail from Europe and I decided to write something about government institutions in my country, just for you.
We have parliament, president, prime minister (head of government) and bunch of ministers who lead their departments. All of these people and institutions reside in our capital, as does every other government agency and bureau. I wonder if you can guess which important institution I omitted? Yes, our Supreme Court DOES NOT reside in capital city.[/quote]
That's outstanding, but Shepard has nothing to do "his country's" supreme court, before "his country'"s military is done with him.


[quote]celuloid wrote...

People, you are not experts in galactic law, just as you are not experts in law system of my country. Stop jumping to conclusions about where trial should take place and leave it to authors.
[/quote]
Look, the authors, of course, can pull any kind of stuff out of their collective ass, and, unlike the case of the MEWiki editors, it will become canon as soon as it is published, but it'll still be bad writing. So far, there has been absolutely no indication whatsovever that the officers of the Systems Alliance Navy, who either are of have formerly been the Citadel Council's Spectres must be tried on Earth of which the Systems Alliance gained independence some 30 years ago for the alleged crimes they commited all over the Galaxy except Earth.


[quote]celuloid wrote...

As you could see, nothing is set in stone in actual life. It is perfectly normal if trial with Shepard won't take place on Arcturus station. Nobody wants to see it anyway. We all wanted to take a look at 22nd century Earth and when they want to show us, a bunch of whiners steps in and fills 20 pages with criticism.
[/quote]
And here I thought the whiner was you, pal, since you whined so much how you wanted to see Earth, that BioWare has listened to you. That doesn't change the fact, that setting the trial on Earth for absolutely no reason, except just to appease you, is, objectively, a bad idea.


[quote]celuloid wrote...
[quote][quote]
Just for your information:

The Earth is just a piece of molten iron covered with rock and a little H2O. It can't own any problems.

As for the Mankind, as soon as it lefts its "craddle", it'll spread its domain to any such piece of rock it manages to claim, establishing new cultural, economical and political realities that you guys seem to be incapable of grasping, but which any real sci-fi is supposed to be all about. Therefore, it's simply a matter of difference between the good sci-fi, and a cheap moneygrab product.

The Humanity, as a Council race, is supposed to solve its problems via established institutions such as the Council and the Systems Alliance, and not by "going to Earth".
[/quote][/quote]
I always imagined humanity as a fledgling species and not masters of the universe. It makes total sense that Earth has still important status, given 3000+ years of own culture compared to ~30 years of alien contact. But perhaps we did not play the same game.
[/quote]
Even the aliens in Mass Effect know that we Humans think everything 10 years old is obsolete.


[quote]celuloid wrote...

Besides, if someone thinks about Asari center of power, he means Thessia. With Turians, it is Palaven. Not some military space station built in early stages of human expansion to secure foothold, with population of 45000. My neighborhood is larger.
[/quote]
How many battleships capable of firing an equivalent of the Hiroshima bomb every couple of seconds are docked in your neighborhood, may I ask? Is there a government body that controls territories distanced over hundreds of light years away from it?


[quote]celuloid wrote..
[quote][quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]jamesp81 wrote...

If Earth is destroyed, humanity is finished as a galactic power.  Done, over, dead, gone.  Bekenstein (the planet you visit in Kasumi's LM) is described as being one of humanity's most populous colonies.  It's population is 5.4 million or so.  You waste Earth, you kill about 98% of the human race.

That's a completely lametacular storyline.
[/quote]
Not true.

The numbers are irrelevant. For example, the Geth are just automated machinery with not a single living operator, and still are quite powerful.

With the Earth purged, the Alliance will come out only stronger, if the major Human colonies and indusrtrial/mining outposts are left unscathed.
[/quote][/quote]
Are you comparing us to automatons and military capacity we don't know anything about? You surely wanted to compare us to quarians, who are going slowly extinct after they lost their homeworld.
[/quote]
They are going extinct becasut they are losers, and lost not only their homeworld but all other colonies and have never settled anywhere else. That's not what I'm speacking about. I'm speaking about how a bunch of young buoyant colonies under the leasdership of determined rulers can fare a lot better than the same thing but burdened by the old fat lifesucking Earth.


[quote]celuloid wrote...

And Alliance will come out stronger? What are you smoking? I want it too. My point is, 90% of people dead (or more, humanity is still concentrated on Earth) means struggle for survival.[/quote]
Nope. You're thinking in categories so retarded, that I can't hope to explain the whole thing to you. But try to think of it this way: there are 150 million people living in Nigeria and only 22.5 in Australia. Which nation fares better?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 avril 2011 - 07:26 .


#561
Zulu_DFA

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Wulfram wrote...

The most obvious place for the trial to take place would be at the Citadel, but I don't think it's at all difficult to justify it taking place on Earth.

But it hasn't been justified in any way, and most probably isn't going to be, leaving it a plot hole.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 avril 2011 - 07:21 .


#562
Thompson family

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

I repeat: even today, in real world, US military personel is not in the ICC's jurisdiction. No US soldier can be ever brought to any kind of trial for any accusation except by the US military authorities, or the unlikely situation if he is taken prisoner of war.

Shepard is a soldier of a fictious space state, that has become independent of any Earth's authority, who commited his allegged crimes in space against other space states and those states subjects.

This ICC in the Hague is utter rubbish.


Every U.S. soldier who ever gets court-martialed isn't brought to the Pentagon either, Zulu_DFA. Similarly, the argument that Shep can only properly be tried at Acturus Station simply doen't hold.

Plot Hole? More like a plot leaky faucet, if that.

You're trying way too hard on this one. Trying to make such a big deal out of this undermines your better arguments.

Modifié par Thompson family, 01 avril 2011 - 07:27 .


#563
Zulu_DFA

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Thompson family wrote...

Every U.S. soldier who ever gets court-martialed isn't brought to the Pentagon either, Zulu_DFA. Similarly, the argument that Shep can only properly be tried at Acturus Station simply doen't hold.

But they aren't brought to Great Britain either. They are tried either at their home base (again, Arcturus, in Shepard's case), or at special facilities, that tend to be in remote unpolulated places, not on Manhatten or Hollywood.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 avril 2011 - 07:32 .


#564
Nashiktal

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Arcturus Station isnt a space pentagon. Its the space capitol of humanity.

#565
Zulu_DFA

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Nashiktal wrote...

Arcturus Station isnt a space pentagon. Its the space capitol of humanity.


Well, it kinda is. All in one.

All the more reason to believe that any kind of a supreme court the Alliance may have would also be situated there.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 avril 2011 - 07:33 .


#566
Elite Midget

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You say you're sure the writers know what they're doing yet Arrival alone retcons out the ME1 plot and makes the Reapers look even more stupid than they were by ME2. At least in ME1 they had some sense of intelligence before the retcons started coming.

#567
Dave666

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Elite Midget wrote...

You say you're sure the writers know what they're doing yet Arrival alone retcons out the ME1 plot and makes the Reapers look even more stupid than they were by ME2. At least in ME1 they had some sense of intelligence before the retcons started coming.


Elite? Please, for the love of god look up the word Retcon.  It doesn't mean what you seem to think it does.

#568
Elite Midget

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If it hurts you that I speak in a logical manner than maybe these forums aren't for you.

#569
Thompson family

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Every U.S. soldier who ever gets court-martialed isn't brought to the Pentagon either, Zulu_DFA. Similarly, the argument that Shep can only properly be tried at Acturus Station simply doen't hold.

But they aren't brought to Great Britain either. They are tried either at their home base (again, Arcturus, in Shepard's case), or at special facilities, that tend to be in remote unpolulated places, not on Manhatten or Hollywood.


Shepard either has to be tried at Washington, D.C. or Guantanamo?

=]

#570
piemanz

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Elite Midget wrote...

If it hurts you that I speak in a logical manner than maybe these forums aren't for you.


No it hurts us that you are obviously incapable of following a plot and feel the need to bash bioware instead of using a little critical thought.

Modifié par piemanz, 01 avril 2011 - 07:43 .


#571
Dave666

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Elite Midget wrote...

If it hurts you that I speak in a logical manner than maybe these forums aren't for you.


What you said is in no way logical Elite.  Nowhere in ME:1 or ME:2 is it stated that the Reapers CANNOT get here without using the Citadel. All we are told is that the Reapers usually use it to get straight to the seat of power to take them out and disable all of the Relays and Communications.  That is all.  The fact that this plan failed and that the Reapers resorted to plan B (fly there) is in no way a Retcon.

#572
Thompson family

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Nashiktal wrote...

Arcturus Station isnt a space pentagon. Its the space capitol of humanity.


The Pentagon is the capital of the United States, and the comparison I was replying to was about what would happen to a U.S. soldier.

#573
Elite Midget

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Please. Here, I'll make it simple for you since you don't understand logic.

ME1 - Citadel is the only fast way to the Universe for the Reapers.
Arrival - Retconned into the Citdal being one of the many ways they can arrive in the Universe in a matter of days.

#574
piemanz

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Dave666 wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

If it hurts you that I speak in a logical manner than maybe these forums aren't for you.


What you said is in no way logical Elite.  Nowhere in ME:1 or ME:2 is it stated that the Reapers CANNOT get here without using the Citadel. All we are told is that the Reapers usually use it to get straight to the seat of power to take them out and disable all of the Relays and Communications.  That is all.  The fact that this plan failed and that the Reapers resorted to plan B (fly there) is in no way a Retcon.


In fact the very last thing shep says at the end of ME1 is "the reapers are coming", i mean serioulsy.

#575
Zulu_DFA

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Thompson family wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Every U.S. soldier who ever gets court-martialed isn't brought to the Pentagon either, Zulu_DFA. Similarly, the argument that Shep can only properly be tried at Acturus Station simply doen't hold.

But they aren't brought to Great Britain either. They are tried either at their home base (again, Arcturus, in Shepard's case), or at special facilities, that tend to be in remote unpolulated places, not on Manhatten or Hollywood.


Shepard either has to be tried at Washington, D.C. or Guantanamo?

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/sideways.png[/smilie]

Well, since Cerberus is considered a Space Al Qaeda, some kind of Space Guantanamo would make sense. As for the publicity, there you have the Extranet and the Citadel News with Emily Wong.