1529 réponses à ce sujet

[Almostfaceman]

piemanz wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And the most resources that go to Earth are consumed for sustainance of that 11.4 billion population. it's not like all of them are assembly line workers though. I bet even those that are officially emplyed do some petty commerce or good-for-nothing services for the same kind of "consumer society" members.

This goes back to what i was saing earlier.You seem to have a distain for humanity, and this is coloring your thinking.When i think of rescources flowing to earth i think of industry and commerce. You seem to think of it as Mc Donalds and Pizza Hut.

More than likely, he's just trying to see how long you'll argue with him - because the idea that the Alliance can easily lose Earth and survive is so patently ridiculous it demands facepalm.  If he seriously believes this (which I doubt) then he's not worth debating with.

[Zulu_DFA]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Anyway, another point about Earth. Where do you suppose all those colonists come from? They come from Earth. Without it we can't form any new colonies for a long time. The rate of human expansion will slow to a crawl and from then on we'll never stand a chance of winning the game of catch-up against the other races.

This is a valid point, which I cannot dispute.

However, since there is no real competition and no other race is eager to expand, I can't see anything wrong with the Alliance slowing down and concentrating for a while on intensive development, rather than extensive, especially since all the Reaper salvage will present a lot of opportunity to advance technology even further.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 avril 2011 - 12:13 .

[Zulu_DFA]

piemanz wrote...

When i think of rescources flowing to earth i think of industry and commerce. You seem to think of it as Mc Donalds and Pizza Hut.

Actually, I think of the GNP per capita, and it looks like the Systems Alliance has the highest one in the Galaxy, and it's going to be only much higher, when the Reapers help solve Earth's overpopulation problem.

[TheDFO]

I apologize if this has been mentioned before, but I'm not reading 25 pages of thread.

Anyway...Has anyone thought how this fits with Bring Down the Sky? I mean, it's not like anything seemed to happen after that between the humans and the batarians.

Not only where far more people on Terra Nova (4.4 mill vs 300k, probably mostly located in or near the impact zone), but there was WAY more evidence who did it (possibly survives who met the guy). Sure, you could say he is a terrorist not connected to the Batarian state, but the SA could say the same about Shep being with Cerberous.

There are already so many plotholes with putting Shep on trial (what witnesses? He snuck in and murdered everyone on the way out. Plus, I would bet the Batarians would have kept a lid on their failure while they tried to pick up shep back up), let alone on Earth instead of the Citadel or Arcturus station, that ignoring this is just...blah. It just seems like Bioware is REALLY straining to stuff the classic trope into the game.

[Zulu_DFA]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Source?

Codex. That is where most of the goods generated by the colonies go. It is also where those colonies come from.

Right. The goods go. They don't come.

Saphra Deden wrote...

The important question is where the Alliance's funding comes from. Without Earth it may not have the funds to support its own fleet.

The funds are generated from industrial output. The industrial output is provided by the colonies. There is much more industrial output that the Alliance colonies provide that goes to the alien states, than to Earth. This was the entire reason why the Asari supported and diplomatically sponsored the Alliances expansion in the Attican Traverse and the Skyllian Verge. Read Revelation. Read the Codex. Read the planet descrtiptions in ME1. This is why the Council favored the Alliance in the conflict with the Hegemony. The Alliance has become indispensible part of the Galactic economy.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Not to mention, Zulu, how are you going to sacrifice Earth without also sacrificing the whole of the Sol system? Uranus is the largest producer of He-3 in Alliance space.

Well, there is a chance that the Reapers won't touch even the Lunar colony until they are finished with Earth.

If not, a pity. That's where the real damage begins. Still, I'm not throwing away the fruits of the thrirty years of colonial expansion just in a an attempt to save one system.

With the Reapers there ain't going to be a second shot. So I'm taking all the aim I can with for first one.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 avril 2011 - 12:41 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Missed this post. You are wrong that the other races aren't expanding too. Consider Patavig, a world recently given to the Volus and their overlords, the turians. There are also the batarians, who wanted the very same realestate we did.

You seem to have missed the point here. Patavig was granted to the Volus by the Alliance as a not-so-subtle attempt to undermine the Hierarchy's role of the Volus' patrons. The planet isn't suitable for Human colonization anyway, and just in two years it becomes a hub for the V.I.P. (Vol Independence Party). The 5th Fleet makes a stop by it on its cruise - if you haven't betrayed it in the ME1ending, that is.

The Batarians... Come on, they've been around a lot longer than the Alliance, and only managed to damage relations with everybody. They obviously lack the wit to hold on to what they get. They are good only to be kept around as standing boogiemen. Even the Skyllian Blitz turns out to have been instigated by Cerberus (aka Alliance Black Ops) - see Shadow Broker's files again.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 avril 2011 - 12:57 .

[piemanz]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

 Cerberus (aka Alliance Black Ops) - see Shadow Broker's files again.

Serioulsy i never new that.If thats true thats pretty damn cool.

[Zulu_DFA]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Right. The goods go. They don't come.

Presumably those goods are traded in return for money.

And where does this money come from, I wonder? Since Earth doesn't really produce anything? The only thing I can think of is ... sharing the colonial corporations' profits! In other words, Earth exploits the colonies, taking away a part of the colonial industrial output as rent. Karl Marx would love this: Das Kapital in Space!

So, where were we? Ah... thank you, Reapers, the colonies don't have to pay their debts and dividends any more as most of the creditors and investors now met their salvation through destruction. Thank you, Reapers, and you may go to hell too now! Admiral Hackett, please, give the order to commence firing.
[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/devil.png[/smilie]

Saphra Deden wrote...

How are you going to defeat the Reapers anyway?

I'm sure, TIM will come up with something.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 avril 2011 - 01:21 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Even the Skyllian Blitz turns out to have been instigated by Cerberus (aka Alliance Black Ops) - see Shadow Broker's files again.

By selling weapons to batarians a decade before the Blitz?

[oldag07]

Yes he needs to be tried on Earth. As Hackett says, the alliance must avoid war the Batarians. And a trial would help the alliance disavow and connection to the events of arrival. it isn't fair. But it is practical.

[Zulu_DFA]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Even the Skyllian Blitz turns out to have been instigated by Cerberus (aka Alliance Black Ops) - see Shadow Broker's files again.

By selling weapons to batarians a decade before the Blitz?

By selling weapons to the Batarians, starting a decade prior to the Blitz.

Also this:

One of the leaders of the Blitz, currently in posession of an Alliance-built secret space probe, which is actually a nuke, skulks in a cluster heavily populated by Cerberus and receives food shipments of from a corporate colony, heavily infiltrated by Cerberus. How can there be something wrong with that?

[Zulu_DFA]

Saphra Deden wrote...

If you split off from Earth humanity may survive, but it will be much diminished and will quickly find itself in debt to alien powers. Say goodbye to your sovereignity and dreams of power and influence.

And since Earths welth is going go go anyway as soon as ther Reapers attack, the only hope of Humanity remains the Alliance Navy, which has to do it's part in destroying the Reapers (possibly most of the job), and come out of it intact to keep protecting the Human interests in the aftermath of the invasion.

Navy >> Earth.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 avril 2011 - 01:52 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The resource wealth of a dozen settled colonies and a hundred industrial
outposts flows back to Earth.

Not only to Earth. Also to the alien densely populated worlds desperately in need of those resources.

The difference is that the aliens have to pay full price for what they get from the Alliance, while the Earth pays in cash that it had previously taken away from the Alliance as rent. In other words, the Alliance feeds Earth for free. Like I said, those 11.4G earthworms are parasites on a colossal welfare program, taking away from the Alliance and giving nothing in exchange.

[Zulu_DFA]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

...and come out of it intact to keep protecting the Human interests in the aftermath of the invasion.

Even if you win (which you wont), you will sure as hell not come out of it capable of protecting anything. You already can't protect your colonies and with most of your financial backers gone,

The backers may be gone, but their investmenst are already in. Only now I don't have to pay them their dividends.

Saphra Deden wrote...

and the most important market you sold your goods too, you will be done for.

Most important? That market paid me for my goods with the money it took from me!

Saphra Deden wrote...

Time to start auctioning off those carriers and dreadnoughts. Time to sell those Normandy's. You can't afford them anymore.

If anything else fails. We all can go pirate. And slaving. Teach the Batarinas a thing or two.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Navy >> Earth.

Money >> Navy.

Without money you have no Navy.

That's right. That's why I should keep my money with me and not give it to the earthworms.

[Zulu_DFA]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Not only to Earth. Also to the alien densely populated worlds desperately in need of those resources.

As desperate as Earth? I think not, sir. Earth was still a growing and expanding world.

Expanding where? If not for the Eezo magic, Earth would have already met the fate of Rakkana.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Their's largely are not. They also have their own colonies to buy from. What incentive do they have to buy from you?

Low prices? The Attican Traverse is rich. Just a bit dangerous, which the aliens couldn't hack. Their problem, not mine.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Why pay you full price when they can cheat their own colonies just as Earth cheated its own?

Their empires are too old. Their economy have stagnated. Their empires are too old. Population centers have grown vast, mining colonies have depleted. The Alliance is that fresh force that literally fuels the galactic economy.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

...taking away from the Alliance and giving nothing in exchange.

You mean aside from people, you know, labor? Unless you are planning a Systems Alliance populated and run by robots you need people. Without them you have no country.

A few millions for a colony is more than enough. New people can be produced in the colonies too, you know. Homosexualism is going to have hard times again, so consider it a downside, if you must.

Saphra Deden wrote...

You are completely off your rocker if you think you are going to destroy Earth and then come out of it stronger than you went in.

You won't be able to expand again. You'll have to shrink your fleet, which will cost you more colonies, which will force you to shrink your fleet even more, and so on.

Sorry, but I can't see why. Paying economic rent to Earth, which mostly just sinks in the 11.4G stomachs there definitely holds the Alliance back for no good reason.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 avril 2011 - 02:21 .