1529 réponses à ce sujet

[Pwener2313]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Pwener2313 wrote...

People are hipcrytes.

3 months ago: "We wanna go to Earth!"

2 weeks ago: "Shepard, your going to Earth"

45 minutes ago: "I don't wanna go to trial (Earth)!"

It's more like:

3 months ago, group of people A: "We wanna go to Earth"   Group of people B: "It doesn't look like we'll be going to Earth and that's great! No need to post about it though"

2 week ago: "Shepard you're going to Earth!"
People A:  "Sweet.  I dont have to post about it anymore"
People B:  "Oh crap, I don't want to go there, I better voice my discontent!"

Yeah, I guess so. I haven't really paid attention to how it has unfolded (don't really care, Im just happy to be going there).

[Zulu_DFA]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

All this "significance", "homeworld" and "symbolism" talk is too much subjective and, therefore, not very much convincing.

I'm just saying it's a likely scenario. You have your basic court in any old town and your fancy court in your home state's biggest city and you have the grandpappy of all courts at a location of extreme significance, and which trial goes where depends on what the crime's for. A trial for blowing up a system would obviously be held in the grandpappy of all courts, which could easily be excused as being on Earth, no retcon required.

And the "grandpappy" of all the Alliance courts must be on the Arcturus Station, ever since the Alliance said:

F*ck you, Earth, we're going to save that colony on Shanxi without your "symbolism"!

And the Alliance did as it said.

So, I guess, the "symbolism" actually works against Earth. It's only the real world obscurantism of a fraction of people who can't deal with that in the version of the future portrayed in the ME series, Earth is going to lose its importance.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 04 avril 2011 - 06:56 .

[Pwener2313]

BW is using the trial as an excuse to go to Earth before the Reapers invade, why can't people just go along with that instead of hating everything BW makes to make us happy?

Dammit, you people! Your killing this series!

[Nathan Redgrave]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And the "grandpappy" of all the Alliance courts must be on the Arcturus Station, ever since the Alliance said:

F*ck you, Earth, we're going to save that colony on Shanxi without your "symbolism"!

And the Alliance did as it said.

So, I guess, the "symbolism" actually works against Earth. It's only the real world obscurantism of a fraction of people who can't deal with that in the version of the future portrayed in the ME series, Earth is going to lose it's importance.

You're jumping to a conclusion based on the assumption that Earth-Alliance relations were actually harmed by the First Contact War, when in fact it's implied that the First Contact War and the revelation of the larger galactic community actually worked to bring humanity closer together as a species. It's not a very logical conclusion to jump to.

Earth and Arcturus Station are both likely locations for the sort of publicity trial I speak of, but there's no concrete reason to believe it absolutely must be one or the other.

[Zeratul20]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

To start with, as long as Shepard isn't a Spectre, he is an Alliance Marine. Therefore, only the Alliance military can try him. That means the Arcturus Station. Any other location would require an elaborate justification, which Admiral Hackett failed to present in the "Arrival" DLC.

(Old post, I'm sure, but...)
Soldiers aren't "above" the law and can be tried by normal courts, depending on the legal rules in place at that time, as well as the situation. Some countries don't even have martial courts anymore.
Furthermore, it is quite possible for soldiers to be tried by international or supranational courts, such as (in our time): Den Haag (Hague), etc... We don't know what the rules are, in this fictional universe, so we don't know who gets to try Shepard.
Also bear in mind that he wasn't acting as an Alliance Military official. He was doing this as a favor, either as a Cerberus operative, or as a Spectre, or as a rogue loner.

Once again: it's a game. I didn't expect this topic to go on for ten more pages.

[celuloid]

Thoughts on why topic of this thread is irrelevant:

1. Total factual accuracy does not make for a great story. If I wanted facts I would read encyclopedia.
I do not remember once that somebody mentioned Arcturus Station in conversations. First time I noticed it was in Revelation book.
However, first scene of ME1 is Shepard looking over the Earth. ME1 startup screen is camera overlooking Earth while slowly turning to stars. Scenes like these set up stage for later events. So many people formed connection with Earth and not Arcturus Station.

2. Bioware can do great opening scene even in Normandy's closets. Especially trial whose only purpose is to make great opening scene. E.g. squad of Spectres catches him, judges appear on holograms and trial starts.

3. I took Hackett's comment about coming in blues when Earth calls as a wish to abandon Cerberus and become loyal to Alliance again, especially when humanity will need Shepard badly. Not as coming to trial on Earth or anywhere else.

4. There is far greater concern. I hope we will not be shoehorned into coming to this supposed trial.

[Zeratul20]

celuloid wrote...

Thoughts on why topic of this thread is irrelevant:

1. Total factual accuracy does not make for a great story. If I wanted facts I would read encyclopedia.
I do not remember once that somebody mentioned Arcturus Station in conversations. First time I noticed it was in Revelation book.
However, first scene of ME1 is Shepard looking over the Earth. ME1 startup screen is camera overlooking Earth while slowly turning to stars. Scenes like these set up stage for later events. So many people formed connection with Earth and not Arcturus Station.

I agree with this. I don't read the books, so for me, Earth means a lot more than Arcturus station. (Even though I would've been able to deduce what it was, "Earth" just makes a stronger impact.)

2. Bioware can do great opening scene even in Normandy's closets. Especially trial whose only purpose is to make great opening scene. E.g. squad of Spectres catches him, judges appear on holograms and trial starts.

3. I took Hackett's comment about coming in blues when Earth calls as a wish to abandon Cerberus and become loyal to Alliance again, especially when humanity will need Shepard badly. Not as coming to trial on Earth or anywhere else.

Well, he does ask you to come in for questioning, when called.

4. There is far greater concern. I hope we will not be shoehorned into coming to this supposed trial.

Yes, but there are simply two options. Either you choose to come in for questioning, and are subsequently tried, OR (like you said): they catch you and the trial starts.

[Zulu_DFA]

Zeratul20 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

To start with, as long as Shepard isn't a Spectre, he is an Alliance Marine. Therefore, only the Alliance military can try him. That means the Arcturus Station. Any other location would require an elaborate justification, which Admiral Hackett failed to present in the "Arrival" DLC.

(Old post, I'm sure, but...)
Soldiers aren't "above" the law and can be tried by normal courts, depending on the legal rules in place at that time, as well as the situation. Some countries don't even have martial courts anymore.

That's correct, only to try a member of the military, the civilian authorities have at least to sumbit some kind of a formal inquest with the said military, otherwise, the person in quetion can just say "Sorry, guys, I'm on duty. Try to try somebody else."

And the Alliance civil authorities happen to reside in the same place as the military authorities: the Arcturus Station.

Zeratul20 wrote...

Furthermore, it is quite possible for soldiers to be tried by international or supranational courts, such as (in our time): Den Haag (Hague), etc... We don't know what the rules are, in this fictional universe, so we don't know who gets to try Shepard.

And the analogue of such "international court" in the Mass Effect universe is the Citadel Council. As I've said in the OP: if it's the "galactic community" Shepard commited his crimes against, it's up to the Galactic community to try him. I can't see how the Hague Court can have any jurisdiction over an Alliance citizen, who happens ot be a member of the Alliance military, and may or may not be an agent of the Citadel Council, and commited all his alleged wrong doings in space, and some of them not even in the Council space.

Zeratul20 wrote...

Also bear in mind that he wasn't acting as an Alliance Military official. He was doing this as a favor, either as a Cerberus operative, or as a Spectre, or as a rogue loner.

And that makes the European Union the candidate to host the trial how?

Zeratul20 wrote...

Once again: it's a game.

Right. It's a game. With a -

Zeratul20 wrote...

I didn't expect this topic to go on for ten more pages.

If you don't care about plotholes in games, it doesn't mean nobody cares about plotholes in games.

[celuloid]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

celuloid wrote...

1. And what does commander-level mean in real world? It is purely fictional rank at the level of lower-ranking officers, such as lieutenants.

You clearly don't know what are you talking about.

The ME Alliance Navy  ranks of "Lieutenant Commander", "Staff Commander", "Captain" correspond to the real world's USNavy ranks of "Lieutenant Commander", "Commander", "Captain". Those are senior officers. Junior officers are: "2nd Lieutenant", "1st Lieutenant", "Staff Lieutenant" (in ME), and "Ensign", "Lieutenant (Junior Grade)", "Lieutenant" (ral world USNavy).

Shepard is a senior officer. Just like David Anderson, before he is promoted to Rear Admiral. Kaidan Alenko is a junior officer.

Get your facts straight, then come back and try again talking about objectivity.

You argue about nothing. I wrote that Shepard is grunt in position of lower-ranking officer. He is not admiral to call shots about where fleets should attack, that is not his decision.
So if you want to be hyper accurate, according to wiki, lieutenant commander is ME lieutenant commander is junior or senior officer depending on armed forces, and commander is ME staff commander is senior officer in most armed forces. So which one is Shepard?
You were right in that there exists Commander rank in Navy. I was ignorant, Shepard was always marine in my eyes, not this.

[Zeratul20]

@ Zulu: Dude, calm down. I just think this may be a tad of an overreaction to something that might not even happen in the first place. No offence intended, of course.

It's not necessarily a plothole. We just don't have all the facts. Supposing there'll be a trial, this doesn't mean that the trial will actually be held on Earth. (Could've just been Hackett's way of referring to humanity.)
The Hague was a contemporary example of an international court. (The Hague is not a EU court, by the way, nor did I mention the EU at all.) My point was that, for all WE know, it's quite possible for an international court on Earth to have jurisdiction over this matter. We don't know.
And does it really matter that much?

Modifié par Zeratul20, 04 avril 2011 - 08:27 .

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

celuloid wrote...
.... that is not his decision.

Udina? 

[Zulu_DFA]

Zeratul20 wrote...

@ Zulu: Dude, calm down. I just think this may be a tad of an overreaction to something that might not even happen in the first place. No offence intended, of course.

It's not necessarily a plothole. We just don't have all the facts. Supposing there'll be a trial, this doesn't mean that the trial will actually be held on Earth. (Could've just been Hackett's way of referring to humanity.)
The Hague was a contemporary example of an international court. (The Hague is not a EU court, by the way, nor did I mention the EU at all.) My point was that, for all WE know, it's quite possible for an international court on Earth to have jurisdiction over this matter. We don't know.
And does it really matter that much?

The EU reference was not to the contemporary International Court in the Hague, but to London in the ME3 teaser trailer.

And it's impossible for a court on Earth to have any jurisdiction over anything beyond the Charon relay, since the Codex explicitly says that it's the Alliance's responsibilty to represent Earth in all matters galactic, not the other way around.

And yes, the lore consistency and the amount of plotholes does really matter that much.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 04 avril 2011 - 09:36 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

You seem to be laboring under the impression that the Alliance can't hold trials on Earth.

[Zeratul20]

@Zulu: No, it's not, seeing as you don't KNOW about it.

Just a short example: most countries assume jurisdiction over crimes committed by their citizens, OR on their territory, OR against their citizens, etc. Furthermore, treaties could designate an Earth-based court to have jurisdiction in certain matters. (Treaties to which the Alliance could be party.)
There are so many reasons why a trial on earth could be perfectly plausible. Your interpretation of legal (penal) jurisdiction (fictional or otherwise) is slightly flawed. This is not necessarily a plothole. (See also: Nathan's response.)

And I'm just saying that you're putting waaaay too much energy into this. That's all.

Modifié par Zeratul20, 04 avril 2011 - 09:52 .

[sponge56]

Trial on earth makes perfect sense, as someone said Arcturus is barely mentioned whatsoever and Earth has always been a major focus in the games. Also, trial on Arcturus is suggesting that the Alliance had a hand in the relay's destruction whereas trial on Earth implies it was a human acting alone who will be trialled accordingly (which is exactly what the arrival mission is, its a favour to Hackett NOT an alliance ordered mission)

[candidate88766]

1. We don't know the full intricate details of humanity's legal system in Mass Effect.

2. Holding a trial on Arcturus could imply to the Batarians that Shepard's mission was Alliance approved, which is obviously not the impression they want to give. Also, the Batarians will want to see the trial and see Shepard punished, but they won't be able to if he's on a military station: the Alliance and Batarians don't seem to get along.

3. Holding a trial on the Citadel could imply to the Batarians that Shepard's mission was Council approved, which is obviously not the impression they want to give. Shepard was not acting under the Council's orders for this mission so they may not want the responsibility. Also, the crime was committed outside Council Space and against a non-Council race.

4. Handing Shepard over to the Batarian homeworld could make sense as extradition happens in real life and the crime was committed in their system, but handing Shepard over would almost certainly lead to his death. Again.

5. The only logical place left to hold a trial would seem to be Earth in some sort of supreme high court. Holding it here doesn't heavily implicate the Alliance or the Council in Shepard's mission (if the Batarians felt either party was behind the deaths of 300,000 of their people war is incredibly likely). Also, it gives us players the chance to see Earth before it gets devastated, something which some players have been calling for in ME3.

[AngryFrozenWater]

I am not even sure if it makes any sense that Shepard will be on trial. As the OP said Shepard may still be a Spectre or he may not. In the case of a Spectre a trial doesn't make sense. What we know is that if a Spectre goes rogue he will be "dealt" with by another Spectre. Maybe a non-Spectre Shepard can have a trial, but I doubt that BW will go into the trouble of splitting the story line for that. So, I truly hope that they get this idea out of their head. ME2 already started with a nonsense situation (forcing Shepard into Cerberus). I hope they don't repeat that again.

[Asheer_Khan]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I am not even sure if it makes any sense that Shepard will be on trial. As the OP said Shepard may still be a Spectre or he may not. In the case of a Spectre a trial doesn't make sense. What we know is that if a Spectre goes rogue he will be "dealt" with by another Spectre. Maybe a non-Spectre Shepard can have a trial, but I doubt that BW will go into the trouble of splitting the story line for that. So, I truly hope that they get this idea out of their head. ME2 already started with a nonsense situation (forcing Shepard into Cerberus). I hope they don't repeat that again.

To speak the truth, BW already pulled similar nonsense in ME 1 with post Virmire grounding Normany when there was no indications that Shepard fully active Spectre status was still active what from legal point of view could be treated as interference with Spectre dutys.

But what we saw instead was parade of ridiculous situations created with purpose to have completely missplaced story clifhanger... but what's funny despite all of this onsenses... we still catched Saren marching inside Archives on Ilos when normally he should already flooded Citadel with Geth army streaming from conduit... that's why i am well prepared for another idiot balls dropped by ME writers as excuse for another ridiculous situations...<_<

[Zeratul20]

candidate88766 wrote...

1. We don't know the full intricate details of humanity's legal system in Mass Effect.

Exactly my point.
High five? (To accentuate the friendly atmosphere.)

[celuloid]

Zeratul20 wrote...

Some countries don't even have martial courts anymore.

So true. My country does not have martial courts either. They were just another buildings siphoning money away from state budget. We got rid of them.
However, we don't have marines blowing up star systems. I guess we will need them again someday.

[Interactive Civilian]

sponge56 wrote...

Earth has always been a major focus in the games.

It has? [citation needed]

2 of the 3 possible Shepard backstories are not from Earth and the one that is joined the Alliance to get off Earth. In the games, the closest you come to Earth is stopping a rogue VI on the moon or probing Uranus, if you choose to do so. Humans and their come-uppance in the Galaxy have been a part of the focus of the games, but that focus has not extended beyond them to humanity's original home. The only place I have seen Earth being focused on is in a short teaser trailer for the next game. A teaser trailer that gives virtually no information about what is happening in the Galaxy beyond a little bit about Earth.

And given Bioware's history with conforming what happens in Mass Effect trailers and teasers to what actually happens in the games, I don't think that's much to go on.

Modifié par Interactive Civilian, 04 avril 2011 - 11:20 .

[Silmane]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I am not even sure if it makes any sense that Shepard will be on trial. As the OP said Shepard may still be a Spectre or he may not. In the case of a Spectre a trial doesn't make sense. What we know is that if a Spectre goes rogue he will be "dealt" with by another Spectre. Maybe a non-Spectre Shepard can have a trial, but I doubt that BW will go into the trouble of splitting the story line for that. So, I truly hope that they get this idea out of their head. ME2 already started with a nonsense situation (forcing Shepard into Cerberus). I hope they don't repeat that again.

To speak the truth, BW already pulled similar nonsense in ME 1 with post Virmire grounding Normany when there was no indications that Shepard fully active Spectre status was still active what from legal point of view could be treated as interference with Spectre dutys.

But what we saw instead was parade of ridiculous situations created with purpose to have completely missplaced story clifhanger... but what's funny despite all of this onsenses... we still catched Saren marching inside Archives on Ilos when normally he should already flooded Citadel with Geth army streaming from conduit... that's why i am well prepared for another idiot balls dropped by ME writers as excuse for another ridiculous situations...<_<

I'm not going to be happy at all if my Shepard is tried for something bogus. Doesn't matter what station or what planet I'm on. 

-Favor from Hackett
-Solo mission, stealth
-Everyone on the station was indoctrinated and died anyway. 
-One shuttle lifted off of the astroid in Arrival, but really? They gonna use that?
-My Shepard never stepped foot on the Citadel in ME2. I'm still dead to them, in my opinion.
-Shadow Broker is Liara, I could hide on SB's ship. 
-Still loyal to Cerberus after Suicide Mission, TIM has my back, for now.

Either way, I like Arrival, but it's stirring up some stuff that may happen to my Shepard for no reason whatsoever. Kinda iffy right now. 

[Whereto]

Just putting it out there, maybe the council reject your status(if u took it back) and you are taken back to earth cause ur technically a civilian. Well atleast I think u are

[piemanz]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

You seem to be laboring under the impression that the Alliance can't hold trials on Earth.

This.

Saying the Alliance, a soley human organisation, can't hold a trial on their motherworld or else it's a plot hole, simply makes no sense.

You can argue semantics all day, but this one fact alone destroys any argument against it in my opinion.


Of course, the argument that the Citadel or Arcturas would be better still stands, and is up for debate, but don't claim that  holding it on Earth is a plot hole.

Modifié par piemanz, 04 avril 2011 - 12:40 .

[celuloid]

Let's focus on the real plothole:
I listened to the Hackett conversation on youtube, and oh boy it starts to look badly. He wants me to "face the music" and "take the hit". All just because Batarians "want blood". So apparently they are going to be satisfied by putting one man into prison for killing 300,000. And Shepard will play silent scapegoat regardless of the whole Alliance operation that smuggled and set up engines on the asteroid.