1529 réponses à ce sujet

[celuloid]

SalsaDMA wrote...

celuloid wrote...

    Thoughts on why topic of this thread is irrelevant:

    1. Total factual accuracy does not make for a great story. If I wanted facts I would read encyclopedia.
    I do not remember once that somebody mentioned Arcturus Station in conversations. First time I noticed it was in Revelation book.
    However, first scene of ME1 is Shepard looking over the Earth. ME1 startup screen is camera overlooking Earth while slowly turning to stars. Scenes like these set up stage for later events. So many people formed connection with Earth and not Arcturus Station.
    

    In other words, you don't care at all about lore. The story doesn't have to be consistent and the characters doesn't have to make sense in their actions or what they say. As long as there are flashy effects, a thumbing beat on the track in the background and some forced drama here and there, you're happy?

Oh, you hit the nail on the head. Probably that is why I am arguing here with Zulu for two days about what the actual consistent lore should be.
    

    

    2. Bioware can do great opening scene even in Normandy's closets. Especially trial whose only purpose is to make great opening scene. E.g. squad of Spectres catches him, judges appear on holograms and trial starts.
    

    Here's an idea: Why not instead do a great opening scene that is consistent with established lore?

    Mindblowing, I know...

You noticed that I am against trial too, at least in the "no choice, you must definitely come" form? And if it should happen, Earth seems like logical choice for politicians who want to get rid of Shepard in farce trial. Plus audience will see Earth before invasion.

Arcturus would have to be really large if every trial took place there. And Arcturus Station connects him to Alliance more than Earth. You should know that since pro-Arcturus people are all about how Arcturus is absolute center of Alliance anything. Really bad choice if you just want to wash your hands. However, I still don't see how Hegemony will suddenly fall in line because Alliance tried one man for death of 300,000 orchestrated by 20+ Alliance soldiers. And there is the thing about Shepard who is unwilling to come to trial. BW will have to make at least 3 Spectres catch unwilling Shepard.

Then will come the trial which will take place because nobody believes in Reapers and Shepard is the bad guy now. So the point of trial is about proving existence of Reapers and summary of previous two games. This way, I see it as an excellent opportunity to finally convince everyone that Reapers exist and it provides actual reason for Shepard to ATTEND it. Shepard will be in the spotlight and everyone will listen. And if they won't, at least Shepard might tell them afterwards that he was right from the beginning.
Nevertheless, all the evidence finds him guilty of heinous crimes, affiliation with Cerberus and so on and they will send hero of humanity to Batarian prison to be executed as a terrorist. That will shut up Batarians. Then our squad-members (led by Virmire survivor!) will get Shepard from death row just in time when Reapers start attacking Earth. This will be 3 hours into the game I hope. It would feel really cheap if Reapers suddenly appeared and everything started exploding.

People jump to conclusions about how story will suck without even playing the game. Now you might write a suggestion about what you want the opening scene to be like, according to the lore.

    

        3. I took Hackett's comment about coming in blues when Earth calls as a wish to abandon Cerberus and become loyal to Alliance again, especially when humanity will need Shepard badly. Not as coming to trial on Earth or anywhere else.
    

    You mean the comment that fell some time after he had already commented that he wasn't on a cerberus ship?

Shepard certainly wasn't dressed in blues then, but in Cerberus uniform. Although I don't remember "Cerberus ship" comment, it was probably answer to investigative choices on conversation wheel and I don't hold them in memory.
But I particularly don't like "take the hit" part. Like that would solve every problem with Batarians. I guess this trial might work, but only if it is skillfully written.

Modifié par celuloid, 04 avril 2011 - 06:40 .

[KenKenpachi]

Reguardless of what happens I want this man for my lawyer.

           http://objection.mrd...o.php?n=4898055

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 04 avril 2011 - 05:31 .

[SalsaDMA]

candidate88766 wrote...

This is Bioware's story, and if the 3rd chapter hinges on Shepard being a criminal or being in jail then thats what will happen.

Please don't say stuff like this.

It makes me think of the DA and them saying 'it's our story' when people were asking why Leliana were alive in their game when she should be dead...

[Mr. Gogeta34]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Shepard publically dead for years + Council/Alliance knowing he's alive and not revealing it + Desire for secrecy/strategic planning = Earth is not a bad choice to have a trial

Because a non-public trial nobody knows about is gonna do alot for relations with the batarians, right?

A non-public trial would be for how to deal with the Batarians... right.  It wouldn't be to "give the Batarians a show"

Remember Shepard's still dead to most people so making a public spectacle of him when that implicates them as well (Because the Alliance knew he was alive and on a mission for them when it happened) is a bad idea.
 
In the words of Udina:  "Do the words political ****storm mean anything to you?"/ "Your return is a bureaucratic nightmare for us"/ "There could be serious political ramifications" 

EDIT:  And those Udina quotes are BEFORE the 300,000 dead Batarians came into the picture.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 04 avril 2011 - 05:52 .

[KenKenpachi]

SalsaDMA wrote...

candidate88766 wrote...

This is Bioware's story, and if the 3rd chapter hinges on Shepard being a criminal or being in jail then thats what will happen.

Please don't say stuff like this.

It makes me think of the DA and them saying 'it's our story' when people were asking why Leliana were alive in their game when she should be dead...

Nah that made sense actully, you just stabbed her, she might have crawled away. I mean plenty of people have "Killed" someone only to have them show up later on and put a bullet in em in revenge. Thats why kids when they are on the ground fire or stab once more to be sure.

And it is there game. When I was a kid I always made up rules to help me on the fly. Such as pretending to be Boba Fett when Han solo (kyle) finally killed me I made up some **** that I had clones and the road was a pit of laval that he couldn't cross while I threw dirt bombs at him...I'm sure we all did this >>

[RyuGuitarFreak]

thurmanator692 wrote...

I never heard them actually say that it was going to be on earth, I thought he said something along the lines of 'when earth calls...' by that he could be figuratively reffering to humanity as a whole, not necessarily saying that the trial would take place there

Yeeeeeeeeeaaaaaah, I sometimes think that way too.

Imagine how funny we're all thinking like that the trial is on Earth and then "BAM" trial in Arcturus.

[M8DMAN]

SalsaDMA wrote...

candidate88766 wrote...

This is Bioware's story, and if the 3rd chapter hinges on Shepard being a criminal or being in jail then thats what will happen.

Please don't say stuff like this.

It makes me think of the DA and them saying 'it's our story' when people were asking why Leliana were alive in their game when she should be dead...

I don't think Shepard will end up in Jail/Prison. Bioware wouldn't slink so low to steal story Ideas for Fan Theory's.
 

[Ahriman]

M8DMAN wrote...
I don't think Shepard will end up in Jail/Prison. Bioware wouldn't slink so low to steal story Ideas for Fan Theory's.
 

The story was ready at the moment of the ME1. Fans may guess Bioware's plans, not vice versa.

[piemanz]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

thurmanator692 wrote...

I never heard them actually say that it was going to be on earth, I thought he said something along the lines of 'when earth calls...' by that he could be figuratively reffering to humanity as a whole, not necessarily saying that the trial would take place there

Yeeeeeeeeeaaaaaah, I sometimes think that way too.

Imagine how funny we're all thinking like that the trial is on Earth and then "BAM" trial in Arcturus.

Funny thing is, as much as i disagree with Zulu's earth being a plothole theory, holding the trial on Arcturus makes a lot of sense.It would also explain why shepards not on earth at the time of the attack (if he's not.I'm just going by the ME3 trailer).

Modifié par piemanz, 04 avril 2011 - 07:52 .

[Gunslinger]

crimzontearz wrote...

you know...what the hell is it with Bioware lately and forcing things like this on the player?

First cerberus in ME2 and the obvious inability to do ANYTHING about it....now the genocide of 300 000 and obviously the whole criminal status that will come with it in ME3

oh come on guys you all know that, regardless of any choices you made, both the Alliance and the Council will throw you to the sharks so you can start ME3 with a reset level and no gear whatsoever from your stay in whatever hellhole they shove you into -facepalms-.

It's called plot progression

[ajburges]

Why do people still hold the release trailer as evidence of plot events? Remember the first ME2 trailer?

http://www.ign.com/v...jectid=14235013

Remember, at this point we had no indication that people could be revived (at substantial cost). It also implicated the Geth as the major antagonists for ME2.

[insomniac13]

I don't think i'd give a crap about Shepard going on trial or being pestered for activating the project in Mass Effect 3. See, that was choice BIOWARE made, not me! On top of that, when you try to warn the Batarians, they still end up dying. When you gun down the crazed doctor, she still presses the freaken button! Why cheat us into thinking we have a choice when we really don't???

[piemanz]

ajburges wrote...

Why do people still hold the release trailer as evidence of plot events? Remember the first ME2 trailer?

http://www.ign.com/v...jectid=14235013

Remember, at this point we had no indication that people could be revived (at substantial cost). It also implicated the Geth as the major antagonists for ME2.

Thats why i said "if he's not".

[Therefore_I_Am]

I will bark a laugh if Shep's lawyer turns out to be the VS.

Modifié par Therefore_I_Am, 04 avril 2011 - 08:10 .

[candidate88766]

SalsaDMA wrote...

candidate88766 wrote...

This is Bioware's story, and if the 3rd chapter hinges on Shepard being a criminal or being in jail then thats what will happen.

Please don't say stuff like this.

It makes me think of the DA and them saying 'it's our story' when people were asking why Leliana were alive in their game when she should be dead...

I meant it more as in Bioware give us the start of each chapter and then let us loose. There have to be some story elements they have control over their story. The opening for the final chapter is one such place they need to have some control in order to progress the plot. Its not an excuse to get away with anything storywise, its just that Bioware has to take control away from us at some points in order to continue the story.

[candidate88766]

piemanz wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

thurmanator692 wrote...

I never heard them actually say that it was going to be on earth, I thought he said something along the lines of 'when earth calls...' by that he could be figuratively reffering to humanity as a whole, not necessarily saying that the trial would take place there

Yeeeeeeeeeaaaaaah, I sometimes think that way too.

Imagine how funny we're all thinking like that the trial is on Earth and then "BAM" trial in Arcturus.

Funny thing is, as much as i disagree with Zulu's earth being a plothole theory, holding the trial on Arcturus makes a lot of sense.It would also explain why shepards not on earth at the time of the attack (if he's not.I'm just going by the ME3 trailer).

I think holding it on Arcturus sort of implies to the Batarians the Alliance sanctioned the destruction of theirsystem, obviously not the impression they want to give. Holding it on Earth might imply human approval of the loss of 300,000 Batarians. I would probably argue that the most believeable course of action would be to hand Shepard over to the Batarians, but as this would almost certainly lead to his execution this can't really happen.

[piemanz]

candidate88766 wrote...

piemanz wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

thurmanator692 wrote...

I never heard them actually say that it was going to be on earth, I thought he said something along the lines of 'when earth calls...' by that he could be figuratively reffering to humanity as a whole, not necessarily saying that the trial would take place there

Yeeeeeeeeeaaaaaah, I sometimes think that way too.

Imagine how funny we're all thinking like that the trial is on Earth and then "BAM" trial in Arcturus.

Funny thing is, as much as i disagree with Zulu's earth being a plothole theory, holding the trial on Arcturus makes a lot of sense.It would also explain why shepards not on earth at the time of the attack (if he's not.I'm just going by the ME3 trailer).

I think holding it on Arcturus sort of implies to the Batarians the Alliance sanctioned the destruction of theirsystem, obviously not the impression they want to give. Holding it on Earth might imply human approval of the loss of 300,000 Batarians. I would probably argue that the most believeable course of action would be to hand Shepard over to the Batarians, but as this would almost certainly lead to his execution this can't really happen.

I see your point in regards to Arcturus since the Alliance may not want to have any assosiation with him, but not Earth.Sheps human, it's not something he can be disassoiated from.And it would only look bad to the Batarians if he's found not guilty.I get the feeling if  there is a trial it will be a sham trial simply to appease the Batarians, so shep will probably be found guilty.

Modifié par piemanz, 04 avril 2011 - 09:28 .

[george martin]

The Council I think would gladly wash their hands of Shepard and let the Humans deal with it, the council does have a human on it too so he does have a say where a trial would take place. The alien council never believed Shepard anyways about much of anything except Saren going rogue. A human has to answer for humanities crimes, what better place than earth? It's not like it won't be on the extra-net.

[Zulu_DFA]

candidate88766 wrote...

I think holding it on Arcturus sort of implies to the Batarians the Alliance sanctioned the destruction of theirsystem, obviously not the impression they want to give. Holding it on Earth might imply human approval of the loss of 300,000 Batarians. I would probably argue that the most believeable course of action would be to hand Shepard over to the Batarians, but as this would almost certainly lead to his execution this can't really happen.

And to me, trying somebody for something is a clear message of having not sanctioned that person to do that.

Handing Shepard over to the Batarians would be a political suicide move for the Alliance as it would lose all credibility as the forefront of Humanity. Even so, the Alliance would still need to hold some kind of inquest to determine that they want to go for this suicide, and that inquest would have to take place on the Arcturus Station, with or without Shepard present.

From the story point of view, the "Batarian" version of the trial is feasible, but they would have to catch Shepard themselves.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 05 avril 2011 - 12:25 .

[Nashiktal]

Not that the Batarians would do a trial mind. Remember their culture.

[candidate88766]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

candidate88766 wrote...

I think holding it on Arcturus sort of implies to the Batarians the Alliance sanctioned the destruction of theirsystem, obviously not the impression they want to give. Holding it on Earth might imply human approval of the loss of 300,000 Batarians. I would probably argue that the most believeable course of action would be to hand Shepard over to the Batarians, but as this would almost certainly lead to his execution this can't really happen.

And to me, trying somebody for something is a clear message of having not sanctioned that person to do that.

Handing Shepard over to the Batarians would be a political suicide move for the Alliance as it would lose all credibility as the forefront of Humanity. Even so, the Alliance would still need to hold some kind of inquest to determine that they want to go for this suicide, and that inquest would have to take place on the Arcturus Station, with or without Shepard present.

From the story point of view, the "Batarian" version of the trial is feasible, but they would have to catch Shepard themselves.

I guess this is more my opinion, but if Shepard was tried on Arcturus I would think he is being tried AS an Aliiance soldier. If they have juristiction over him then that implies to me they had responsibility over him and so, in part, should've been responsible for preventing the loss of 300,000. The fact that they didn't would imply to me that they knew about it and didn't prevent it (the Batarians are probably too suspicious of the Alliance to believe they simply didn't know). I don't know how military trials work nowadays, but I imagine if a soldier broke a law whilst he wasn't currently under military command they would be tried under a civilian court. I may be wrong on this. And laws will have changed by whatever year ME takes place in.

Also, the entire trial is simply a way of providing a visible scapegoat for the Batarains to see. Holding a trial on a military station - the most important human military station - means that the Batarians can't see the trial and could easily accuse the Alliance of bias.

I should add that despite my debating I do really want to see Arcturus in ME3, i'm just trying to provide reasons for why Earth isn't necessarily the wrong choice. I would also quite like to see Earth before it gets obliterated. Personally I would have preferred Shepard to have been taken prisoner by the Batarians for a few years, but this could happen anyway in ME3.

Modifié par candidate88766, 05 avril 2011 - 09:26 .

[candidate88766]

piemanz wrote...

candidate88766 wrote...

piemanz wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

thurmanator692 wrote...

I never heard them actually say that it was going to be on earth, I thought he said something along the lines of 'when earth calls...' by that he could be figuratively reffering to humanity as a whole, not necessarily saying that the trial would take place there

Yeeeeeeeeeaaaaaah, I sometimes think that way too.

Imagine how funny we're all thinking like that the trial is on Earth and then "BAM" trial in Arcturus.

Funny thing is, as much as i disagree with Zulu's earth being a plothole theory, holding the trial on Arcturus makes a lot of sense.It would also explain why shepards not on earth at the time of the attack (if he's not.I'm just going by the ME3 trailer).

I think holding it on Arcturus sort of implies to the Batarians the Alliance sanctioned the destruction of theirsystem, obviously not the impression they want to give. Holding it on Earth might imply human approval of the loss of 300,000 Batarians. I would probably argue that the most believeable course of action would be to hand Shepard over to the Batarians, but as this would almost certainly lead to his execution this can't really happen.

I see your point in regards to Arcturus since the Alliance may not want to have any assosiation with him, but not Earth.Sheps human, it's not something he can be disassoiated from.And it would only look bad to the Batarians if he's found not guilty.I get the feeling if  there is a trial it will be a sham trial simply to appease the Batarians, so shep will probably be found guilty.

As you say, it is probably a sham - in which case the trial has to be fairly visible so the Batarians can't accuse anyone of bias. This couldn't really happen on Arcturus as it is a military ship and wouldn't transmit anything going on inside. This leaves - in my mind anyway - the Citadel or earth. The Council may well want to wash their hands of Shepard after this, so Earth seems a viable choice. As you say, Shepard must be found guilty and in a manner the batarians can witness, even if its via a broadcast (Batarains arent' really welcome on Earth, the Citadel or Arcturus).

[GuardianAngel470]

KenKenpachi wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

candidate88766 wrote...

This is Bioware's story, and if the 3rd chapter hinges on Shepard being a criminal or being in jail then thats what will happen.

Please don't say stuff like this.

It makes me think of the DA and them saying 'it's our story' when people were asking why Leliana were alive in their game when she should be dead...

Nah that made sense actully, you just stabbed her, she might have crawled away. I mean plenty of people have "Killed" someone only to have them show up later on and put a bullet in em in revenge. Thats why kids when they are on the ground fire or stab once more to be sure.

And it is there game. When I was a kid I always made up rules to help me on the fly. Such as pretending to be Boba Fett when Han solo (kyle) finally killed me I made up some **** that I had clones and the road was a pit of laval that he couldn't cross while I threw dirt bombs at him...I'm sure we all did this >>

Dude, I don't know if you meant it to be from the start, but your story is hilarious. I laughed. That is so freaking true it is funny. My brother used to do that to me all the time.

[Zulu_DFA]

candidate88766 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

candidate88766 wrote...

I think holding it on Arcturus sort of implies to the Batarians the Alliance sanctioned the destruction of theirsystem, obviously not the impression they want to give. Holding it on Earth might imply human approval of the loss of 300,000 Batarians. I would probably argue that the most believeable course of action would be to hand Shepard over to the Batarians, but as this would almost certainly lead to his execution this can't really happen.

And to me, trying somebody for something is a clear message of having not sanctioned that person to do that.

Handing Shepard over to the Batarians would be a political suicide move for the Alliance as it would lose all credibility as the forefront of Humanity. Even so, the Alliance would still need to hold some kind of inquest to determine that they want to go for this suicide, and that inquest would have to take place on the Arcturus Station, with or without Shepard present.

From the story point of view, the "Batarian" version of the trial is feasible, but they would have to catch Shepard themselves.

I guess this is more my opinion, but if Shepard was tried on Arcturus I would think he is being tried AS an Aliiance soldier. If they have juristiction over him then that implies to me they had responsibility over him and so, in part, should've been responsible for preventing the loss of 300,000. The fact that they didn't would imply to me that they knew about it and didn't prevent it (the Batarians are probably too suspicious of the Alliance to believe they simply didn't know).

But he IS an Alliance soldier. Who, for all the galaxy knows, went off mission, faked his death, and has been AWOL and running with terrorists ever since.

It it wasn't so, the Alliance would have nothing at all to do with him, and could just say: "He isn't one of ours, and as such not our problem. We don't care where he blows up star systems, as long as it doesn't happen in our space. Let the Citadel Council deal with him." It wouldn't make any sense for the Alliance to assume any responsibility for Shepard's actions, on Earth, Arcturus or elsewhere. And honestly, I can't see why this isn' t the case, seeing how Hackett chose Shepard for the mission, so that the Alliance could disavow any responsibility.

The more I think about it, the more this whole affair becomes one illogical plotholish mess.

candidate88766 wrote...

I don't know how military trials work nowadays, but I imagine if a soldier broke a law whilst he wasn't currently under military command they would be tried under a civilian court. I may be wrong on this. And laws will have changed by whatever year ME takes place in.

Whatever the legal peculiarities may be, there is no sense that a third party completely uninvolved in the situation should host the trial.

Shepard is not a citizen of any Earth's state, didnot commit any of his alleged crimes on Earth, responds to an authority one or even two tiers up of any of Earth's governments, is not held in custody on Earth.

Simply put, there is nobody, not one person on Earth that could summon Shepard to a trial.

candidate88766 wrote...

Also, the entire trial is simply a way of providing a visible scapegoat for the Batarains to see. Holding a trial on a military station - the most important human military station - means that the Batarians can't see the trial and could easily accuse the Alliance of bias.

The Arcturus Station is also home to the Alliance's Parliament. It's basically the "Human Citadel". Plus the reporters, the Extranet, and so on.

Plus Hackett as per "Arrival" cannot be aware of all these and other considerations that could require the trial to be held elsewhere but the Arcturus Station. On the contrary, all the politicians that would want to make a scapegoat of Shepard reside at the Arcturus Station. Or even on the Citadel, like, for instance, in  the default storyline, with the new, Human-led Council.

candidate88766 wrote...

I should add that despite my debating I do really want to see Arcturus in ME3, i'm just trying to provide reasons for why Earth isn't necessarily the wrong choice. I would also quite like to see Earth before it gets obliterated. Personally I would have preferred Shepard to have been taken prisoner by the Batarians for a few years, but this could happen anyway in ME3.

To be honest, I wanted Shepard to visit Earth too, after ME1. After ME2, I wanted that Earth be left out of the story, because I realized, that since it's a case of "listening to the fans", it'll be utterly lame in implementation. And now it's happening.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 05 avril 2011 - 11:20 .

[candidate88766]

@Zulu_DFA

This is probably easier than quoting everything.

If Arcturus station isn't just a military installation and is, as you say, the Alliance's Parliament as well then I concede it would make sense to hold a trial there. If reporters have access to it then the Batarians would presumably have no objection. I don't think this necessarily makes Earth a stupid choice, but I will agree that Arcturus does seem to make at least as much, if not more, sense. Plus, I would very much like to see it.

You are welcome to your opinion, but I don't fell earth's implementation will be 'utterly lame'. I was pretty impressed with the Migrant Fleet and with the Krogan homeworld (both areas could've been larger but I think the general 'feel' of both places was pretty much spot on). Locations like the Shadow Broker's base exceeded my expectations. The Migrant Fleet in particular seemed a placed many fans wanted to visit after ME1. And the fact that the reveal trailer showed London as opposed to a more overused city (Paris, Tokyo or any large profile American city come to mind) for the first view of ME-era Earth gives me faith that perhaps Bioware can do something a little different with the whole Earth invasion story. I'm personally still looking forward to seeing Earth.

It should also be noted that when Hackett says 'when Earth calls' he could simply have been referring to the general Solar System; its just that Earth is the only planet of real note in the system.