1529 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

1000!

[SalsaDMA]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Because my reason for not liking it is it being a plot hole or bad writing.

It's called "causality".

No, it's called "Zulu doesn't know what a plot hole is."

No, it's called 'Hackett making statements he has no authority to make'.

It's called 'a known terroist cells actions being pinned on a guy there is either zero evidence of even having been in the system, or scant evidence of a quality that could have been forged. Or that there is no reason to suspect from the start that the batarians would even think of acusing said guy given all the previous evidence they had of an entire ALLIANCE terroist cell working on executing the event that went off'.

It's called 'enemies making sure you have every posibility of stopping their plan, and even telling you how to do so, while not bothering to spend 5 minutes during a prolonged period that would ensure the success of their plan. Meaning that not only is the lead-in to why Shepard is put on trial extremely flawed in telling, but the ridicilousness of the enemies actions make it hard to perceive any of the events or enemies in the plot with any kind of seriousness. The plot and characters behave as if they were part of a rushed b-comedy, rather than an epic tale of adventure.'

And so on.

[KJandrew]

Wait, i thought that if Shep is a spectre he can't be tried. I was under the impression that Spectres have the authority to do whatever they want to protect the galaxy unless the council themselves call them on it?

[SalsaDMA]

KJandrew wrote...

Wait, i thought that if Shep is a spectre he can't be tried. I was under the impression that Spectres have the authority to do whatever they want to protect the galaxy unless the council themselves call them on it?

Which is one of the reasons it's pretty imersion breaking when Hacket states to my spectre shepards that Shepard is to be put on trial 'when earth calls' without even having the council in and allow it first.

Lazy writing ftl.

[Zulu_DFA]

KJandrew wrote...

Wait, i thought that if Shep is a spectre he can't be tried. I was under the impression that Spectres have the authority to do whatever they want to protect the galaxy unless the council themselves call them on it?

Reapers invade Earth, man, that's why Shepard needs to be put on Earth. Spectre, Alliance, Cerberus - it doesn't matter.

This approach is approved by the "AYV Group, Inc.", so you better start running, heretic! [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/bandit.png[/smilie]

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 11 avril 2011 - 09:04 .

[Pwener2313]

Ah Zulu.... you and your plotholes. You do know that your legacy is now being "the guy who cried plothole".

As for Earth, I killed 300,000 Batarians. Going to trial seems minimal by comparison when you performed the fastest genocide in history. Im not na Spectre, so makes even more sense for me.

[Almostfaceman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

This approach is approved by the "AYV Group, Inc.", so you better start running, heretic! [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/bandit.png[/smilie]

Oh stop cryin'.  Last I checked, Zulu, the forum mod cops haven't banned you.  

If you're cryin' that not everybody agree's with you - welcome to the universal experience for all of humanity. 

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 11 avril 2011 - 09:11 .

[SalsaDMA]

Gotta admire Zulus fangirls. They're quite persistent in following him around

Gotten any autographs yet?

[Zulu_DFA]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

This approach is approved by the "AYV Group, Inc.", so you better start running, heretic! [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/bandit.png[/smilie]

Oh stop cryin'.  Last I checked, Zulu, the forum mod cops haven't banned you.  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/policeman.png[/smilie]

If you're cryin' that not everybody agree's with you - welcome to the universal experience for all of humanity. 

Oh I ain't cryin'. I'm laughin'. You just can't see it 'cause o' shades. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/cool.png[/smilie]

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 11 avril 2011 - 09:21 .

[Mr. Sniper Rifle]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

Wait, i thought that if Shep is a spectre he can't be tried. I was under the impression that Spectres have the authority to do whatever they want to protect the galaxy unless the council themselves call them on it?

Reapers invade Earth, man, that's why Shepard needs to be put on Earth. Spectre, Alliance, Cerberus - it doesn't matter.

This approach is approved by the "AYV Group, Inc.", so you better start running, heretic! [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/bandit.png[/smilie]

Actually it makes sense that the trial takes place on Earth. See it from the perspective of the Alliance.

Earth in a very real sense is the beating heart of the Alliance. Old, proud and powerful, it’s the most important human world politically economically and symbolically. Arcturus Station  might be the core of the Alliance Navy, but
Earth is the heart of human culture.  There are other important colonies, surely, but Earth by far is the most prestigious.

Now look at Shepard: decorated officer with a well known reputation, and humanity’s first Spectre to boot. Shepard is in many ways is the ideal of humanity, at its best as well as at its worst, and represents the
future hopes and dreams of the human species as a whole.  The galaxy watches what Shepard does with keen interest.

And then Shepard annihilates an entire system, murders everyone within it, all by destroying one of the most important and irreplaceable machines in the galaxy: a mass relay. And all this in the name of stopping Reapers, of which information is scant..

You have to remember, the only people who know about the Reaper threat are the Normandy crew(former or current), Admiral Hackett, Anderson , Cerberus and the Geth. Very few of these people see eye to eye, and
more to the point, not all of them are reliable or believable sources of information. Everyone else who knows is either dead, insane or actively working to assist the Reapers.

To say the least, Shepard looks unhinged, completely mad at the worst. Now Shepard is a ticking time bomb, an intergalactic incident waiting to blow up in the Systems Alliance’s collective face. And with the batarians chomping at the bit for a war that humanity neither want or can afford without heavy losses, the Alliance now has to do the only reasonable thing left to them.

They call him in, or they drag him back in chains if he won’t come willingly. Then they put him in the courtroom to argue his case. He’s not only being tried before the Alliance, but the rest of the galaxy is watching; if he’s truly innocent, then that’s great, . If he’s guilty, then it’s a sign that humanity takes care of their mad dogs and can do so without bias.

Also, it’s more fittingly dramatic for the writers, which isn’t a shabby reason either.

Modifié par Mr. Sniper Rifle, 11 avril 2011 - 09:52 .

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]KJandrew wrote...

Wait, i thought that if Shep is a spectre he can't be tried. I was under the impression that Spectres have the authority to do whatever they want to protect the galaxy unless the council themselves call them on it?[/quote]
Reapers invade Earth, man, that's why Shepard needs to be put on Earth. Spectre, Alliance, Cerberus - it doesn't matter.

This approach is approved by the "AYV Group, Inc.", so you better start running, heretic! [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/bandit.png[/smilie]
[/quote]
Actually it makes sense that the trial takes place on Earth. See it from the perspective of the Alliance.
[/quote]
Actually, it doesn't make sense at all.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

Earth in a very real sense is the beating heart of the Alliance.
[/quote]
The Alliance went independent of Earth after the FCW.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

Old, proud and powerful,
[/quote]
Decrepit, shameless and gluttonous.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

it’s the most important human world politically
[/quote]
Arcturus Station.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

economically
[/quote]
industrial outposts in the Attican Traverse and the Skyllian Verge.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

and symbolically.
[/quote]
Shanxi.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

Arcturus Station  might be the core of the Alliance Navy,
[/quote]
The is the core of the Systems Alliance and houses the headquarters of the Alliance Navy.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

but Earth is the heart of human culture.
[/quote]
Culture is the superstructure of society, and subject to inevitable change.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

There are other important colonies, surely, but Earth by far is the most prestigious.
[/quote]
That's why the aliens call it "acid washed slum", no doubt.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

Now look at Shepard: decorated officer with a well known reputation, and humanity’s first Spectre to boot.
[/quote]
Who might have never set his foot on Earth before.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

Shepard is in many ways is the ideal of humanity,
[/quote]
that has left its craddle behind and reached to the stars.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

at its best as well as at its worst, and represents the future hopes and dreams of the human species as a whole.
[/quote]
Yeah, even Delan the Mechanic heard Shepard's name, even though the Alliance stroke his portrait from the recruitment posters for some reason.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

The galaxy watches what Shepard does with keen interest.[/quote]
And Earth is factoring in this how?


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

And then Shepard annihilates an entire system, murders everyone within it, all by destroying one of the most important and irreplaceable machines in the galaxy: a mass relay.[/quote]
So the Alliance had better denied involvement as intended.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

 And all this in the name of stopping Reapers, of which information is scant..[/quote]
Because it's not something the authorities, including those in the Systems Alliance want the public to know much about.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

You have to remember, the only people who know about the Reaper threat are the Normandy crew(former or current), Admiral Hackett, Anderson , Cerberus and the Geth. Very few of these people see eye to eye, and
more to the point, not all of them are reliable or believable sources of information. Everyone else who knows is either dead, insane or actively working to assist the Reapers.
[/quote]
And again, how this makes Earth any more sensible a place to try (interrogate) Shepard?


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

To say the least, Shepard looks unhinged, completely mad at the worst. Now Shepard is a ticking time bomb, an intergalactic incident waiting to blow up in the Systems Alliance’s collective face. And with the batarians chomping at the bit for a war that humanity neither want or can afford without heavy losses, the Alliance now has to do the only reasonable thing left to them.

They call him in, or they drag him back in chains if he won’t come willingly. Then they put him in the courtroom to argue his case. He’s not only being tried before the Alliance, but the rest of the galaxy is watching;[/quote]Since Earth can accomodate "the rest of the Galaxy" no more than the Arturus Station, "the rest of the Galaxy" will have to watch the trial (if it's made publilc at all, which isn't yet clear) on their vid screens. As for the alien dignitaries, should they be allowed to be present in person, I'm more than sure the Arcurus Station (being the capital of the Alliance) can accomodate dozens of them.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

if he’s truly innocent, then that’s great, . If he’s guilty, then it’s a sign that humanity takes care of their mad dogs and can do so without bias.
[/quote]
The Systems Alliance is the political body of Humanity. The Capital of the Alliance is the Arcturus Station.

Also, if Shepard is a spectre, he is the Citadel Council's mad dog, so why would the Alliance be taking any responsibility?


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

Also, it’s more fittingly dramatic for the writers, which isn’t a shabby reason either.
[/quote]
Or it's an easy cop-out for the writers, allowing to just handwave the lore and the possible variations of Shepard's standing in the Galaxy due to the Big Choices.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 11 avril 2011 - 10:30 .

[Mr. Sniper Rifle]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

Actually, it doesn't make sense at all.
[/quote]
I see you're off to a flying start.

[quote]
The Alliance went independent of Earth after the FCW.
[/quote]
Which is impossible. Earth is still important in the long run to the Alliance. they can't extricate themselves from Earth .


[quote]

Decrepit, shameless and gluttonous.
[/quote]
 Thank you for showing your non evidence. Now I will show you a unicorn made of dreams.

[quote]
Arcturus Station.
[/quote]
"The Systems Alliance[/b] is the representative body of Earth and all humancolonies in Citadel space. Backed by Earth's most powerful nations, the Alliance has become humanity's military, exploratory, and economic spearhead. While the Alliance is relatively new to the galactic community, it has already made a name for itself, gaining humans an embassy on thePresidium. The Alliance is governed by a parliament based at Arcturus Station; the station also serves as the Alliance's capital."

From the Mass Effect wiki. In actuality, it supports both are points of view. The Alliance draws its support from Earth's nations, while the Alliance acts as the representative of Earth in extrasolar matters. It's a mutual relationship, with the Alliance to a degree being seperate from earth, but still beholden to it.



[quote]

industrial outposts in the Attican Traverse and the Skyllian Verge.
[/quote]
Since then, the Alliance has continued its
expansion, with the resource wealth of a dozen settled colonies and hundreds of
industrial outposts flowing back to Earth.
From the Mass Effect wiki. Notice how that wealth is making its way back to Earth. Again Earth is central here.

[quote]
Shanxi.
[/quote]
For a very different reason. Shanxi was the heart of the First Contact War. Earth is the cradle of humanity, and is home to millenia of human history. It

[quote]
The is the core of the Systems Alliance and houses the headquarters of the Alliance Navy.[/quote]
Which I said, the Alliance Navy is very much the most visible arm of the Alliance, and as we established, is beholden to Earth.


[quote]
Culture is the superstructure of society, and subject to inevitable change.
[/quote]
I'd love to see where you quoted that from. Anyway, Earth is a central part of human culture, and very much the center of humanity as a whole. When Earth moves a certain way, so does everyone else.

[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...
That's why the aliens call it "acid washed slum", no doubt.[/quote]
Still haven't found that unicorn for you.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...
Who might have never set his foot on Earth before.[/quote]
There's three possibilities for Shepard's background. One is Earthborn so that's one taken care of. And neither the Colonist or Spacer background precludes never having set foot on Earth. So its as possible that he has been to Earth, as never having seen it.

[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...
that has left its craddle behind and reached to the stars.[/quote]
Which as we pointed out, is still very much tied to that cradle. I'll also preclude the obvious metaphor that may be employed "Then they should cut the chord" just to get ahead of you.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...
Yeah, even Delan the Mechanic heard Shepard's name, even though the Alliance stroke his portrait from the recruitment posters for some reason.
[/quote] He was dead. They moved on, primarily from the controvversey around Shepard.

[quote]
And Earth is factoring in this how?[/quote]
Politics is perception. When you look powerful, things are often easier for you in the realm of diplomacy. When you loo weak, and those represent fail. you, or make you look bad, its harder to achieve anything because you're not respected. Shepard was the first Spectre and thus represented Earth and the Alliance.


[quote]So the Alliance had better denied involvement as intended.[/quote] And deny that human operatives were found operating in the system prior to the incident?
 



[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...
Because it's not something the authorities, including those in the Systems Alliance want the public to know much about.[/quote] And they have little to no, information, again most of it coming from Shepard who looks incrasingly shaky as a resource in their eyes.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...
And again, how this makes Earth any more sensible a place to try (interrogate) Shepard?[/quote]
Because Shepard suddenly disappearing to be interrogated would be viewed as suspicous to say the least. Better where everyone can see him.



[quote]]
Since Earth can accomodate "the rest of the Galaxy" no more than the Arcturus Station, "the rest of the Galaxy" will have to watch the trial (if it's made publilc at all, which isn't yet clear) on their vid screens. As for the alien dignitaries, should they be allowed to be present in person, I'm more than sure the Arcurus Station (being the capital of the Alliance) can accomodate dozens of them.[/quote]
If i have to explain the metaphor of "the world was watching', I will be very sad. But it applies here: essentially what the Alliance and Earth does will be observed and dissected by the rest of the galaxy. Further, it would be easier to accomadate a trial and any visiting dignitaries for a possible long term trial on a plane than a space station. Arcturus is a military base, not a media compound.


[quote]
The Systems Alliance is the political body of Humanity. The Capital of the Alliance is the Arcturus Station.

Also, if Shepard is a spectre, he is the Citadel Council's mad dog, so why would the Alliance be taking any responsibility?[/quote]
1. As we've established, the Allliance draws influence and backing from Earth, and even thogh its the capital of the Alliance, Earth is still part of the game. The Alliance is the machine earth puts in place as the governing body of its colonies and outposts, and the Alliance is beholden to Earth.
2. Earth and the Alliance put Shepard forward as a Spectre candidate, and Spectres wield a lot of power, and the responsibility to use it, and have to be trusted. If the Spectre in question abuses that power to an extreme end(working with terrorists, mass murder), it makes sense  to look at those who suggested him. After all they knew who he was, and what he'd done, with greater acess to his after action reports,


[quote]
Or it's an easy cop-out for the writers, allowing to just handwave the lore and the possible variations of Shepard's standing in the Galaxy due to the Big Choices.[/quote]
And you see plot holes where they aren't. 

Modifié par Mr. Sniper Rifle, 11 avril 2011 - 11:16 .

[SalsaDMA]

And they have little to no, information, again most of it coming from Shepard who looks incrasingly shaky as a resource in their eyes.

You mean 'just as much info as there is tying a specific individual called Shepard to the event Hackett flat out states he will be put for trial on, irregardless of evidence against him specifically'?

And you see plot holes where they aren't.

Not in this case he doesn't. The holes are there. You on the other hand is far too lenient with Biowares degraded quality of writing, and you make asumptions and fill in blanks spanning entire pages if it had been written down, in order to save the plot of Arrival and the lead in to ME3.

The story is badly written, there are huge lacks of events that need to happen for an Earth trial to make sense, and none of it have been described nor even hinted at by the writers. We're basicly at 'build-a-story' as far as the plot goes for every player, in order to be able to make the plot make actual sense. And I don't mean this in any way that can be considered good.

They COULD have written the story so things would have made sense with an Earth trial and the other stuff that made Arrival a huge fumble. Some extra scenes, a map more where you moved around the civilian batarians, a slight change of how events unfolded, and they could have arrived at an Earth trial for Shepard in a way that didn't take out the elephant gun and blow holes through their own lore.

Appearantly either the timeframe they needed to do things in, prevented this; or they just didn't care enough.

[Mr. Sniper Rifle]

SalsaDMA wrote...
Not in this case he doesn't. The holes are there. You on the other hand is far too lenient with Biowares degraded quality of writing, and you make asumptions and fill in blanks spanning entire pages if it had been written down, in order to save the plot of Arrival and the lead in to ME3.

The story is badly written, there are huge lacks of events that need to happen for an Earth trial to make sense, and none of it have been described nor even hinted at by the writers. We're basicly at 'build-a-story' as far as the plot goes for every player, in order to be able to make the plot make actual sense. And I don't mean this in any way that can be considered good.

They COULD have written the story so things would have made sense with an Earth trial and the other stuff that made Arrival a huge fumble. Some extra scenes, a map more where you moved around the civilian batarians, a slight change of how events unfolded, and they could have arrived at an Earth trial for Shepard in a way that didn't take out the elephant gun and blow holes through their own lore.

Appearantly either the timeframe they needed to do things in, prevented this; or they just didn't care enough.

I snipped the first part because it wasn't relevant.

Second,  I think you're really looking too hard for problems that aren't there. So that said:

Well then, tell me what the holes are more specifically. You've told me they are there, but you also didn't point any out to me in any detail. You offered suggestions of how things could have been different, but you offered no hard evidence as to your point of view; you offered things that weren't in the DLC, but they don't affect the DLC's plot.. Its entirely possible we're both making assumptions here, no?

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

Actually, it doesn't make sense at all.
[/quote]
I see you're off to a flying start.
[/quote]
Haven't you seen that in the OP?

[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...
[quote]
The Alliance went independent of Earth after the FCW.
[/quote]
Which is impossible. Earth is still important in the long run to the Alliance. they can't extricate themselves from Earth.
[/quote]
But they just did.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...
[quote]

Decrepit, shameless and gluttonous.
[/quote]
 Thank you for showing your non evidence. Now I will show you a unicorn made of dreams.
[/quote]
So... where is the unicorn?


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...
[quote]
Arcturus Station.
[/quote]
"The Systems Alliance[/b] is the representative body of Earth and all human colonies in Citadel space. Backed by Earth's most powerful nations, the Alliance has become humanity's military, exploratory, and economic spearhead. While the Alliance is relatively new to the galactic community, it has already made a name for itself, gaining humans an on the Presidium. The Alliance is governed by a parliament based at Arcturus Station; the station also serves as the Alliance's capital."

From the Mass Effect wiki. In actuality, it supports both are points of view. The Alliance draws its support from Earth's nations, while the Alliance acts as the representative of Earth in extrasolar matters. It's a mutual relationship, with the Alliance to a degree being seperate from earth, but still beholden to it.
[/quote]
Please keep the Mass Effect Wiki bullsh*t in the Mass Effect Wiki. I'd accept Codex entries, but the Codex entries say that Earth's states are "affiliated under the banner of the Systems Alliance", just like Eden Prime, Terra Nova, Shanxi, Ellysium and other Alliance colonies. Thus, Earth is a province of the Systems Alliance.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...
[quote]
industrial outposts in the Attican Traverse and the Skyllian Verge.
[/quote]
Since then, the Alliance has continued its expansion, with the resource wealth of a dozen settled colonies and hundreds ofindustrial outposts flowing back to Earth.
From the Mass Effect wiki. Notice how that wealth is making its way back to Earth. Again Earth is central here.[/quote]
No, that's not Wiki now, it's the Codex. And the "wealth making its way" to Earth doesn't make it a heart. It makes it a resource sink.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...
[quote]
Shanxi.
[/quote]
For a very different reason. Shanxi was the heart of the First Contact War.
[/quote]
Are you fixated on hearts or something? I've never heard the expression "heart of war".


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

Earth is the cradle of humanity, and is home to millenia of human history. It
[quote]
The is the core of the Systems Alliance and houses the headquarters of the Alliance Navy.[/quote]
Which I said, the Alliance Navy is very much the most visible arm of the Alliance, and as we established, is beholden to Earth.
[/quote] No, the Alliance Navy said "FU, Earth!" and went rogue, when the Turians were rampaging on Shanxi and Earth couldn't sh*t out a course of action.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...
[quote]
Culture is the superstructure of society, and subject to inevitable change.
[/quote]
I'd love to see where you quoted that from.[/quote]
It's my own opinion, so you may quote it starting with "Zulu says".


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

Anyway, Earth is a central part of human culture, and very much the center of humanity as a whole. When Earth moves a certain way, so does everyone else.
[/quote]
It's like saying Great Britain is a central part of the American culture, etc.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

That's why the aliens call it "acid washed slum", no doubt.[/quote]
Still haven't found that unicorn for you.[/quote]
And I'm still waiting.

FYE, that's a quote from Administrator Anoleis' greeting to you, if you play as Earthborn Shepard.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Who might have never set his foot on Earth before.[/quote]
There's three possibilities for Shepard's background. One is Earthborn so that's one taken care of. And neither the Colonist or Spacer background precludes never having set foot on Earth. So its as possible that he has been to Earth, as never having seen it.
[/quote]
And since it is possible that Shepard never set foot on Earth, the point stands.

(My Shepard is Earthborn, BTW, if you haven't figured it out yet.)


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...
[quote]Mr. Zulu_DFA wrote...
that has left its craddle behind and reached to the stars.[/quote]
Which as we pointed out, is still very much tied to that cradle.[/quote]
Where is the unicorn???


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

I'll also preclude the obvious metaphor that may be employed "Then they should cut the chord" just to get ahead of you.[/quote]
The Reapers are going to do it for us.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Yeah, even Delan the Mechanic heard Shepard's name, even though the Alliance stroke his portrait from the recruitment posters for some reason.
[/quote] He was dead. They moved on, primarily from the controvversey around Shepard.
[/quote]Such a hero. One goes down and ten get off the bus to take his place. That's Humanity for you.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...
[quote]
And Earth is factoring in this how?[/quote]
Politics is perception. When you look powerful, things are often easier for you in the realm of diplomacy. When you loo weak, and those represent fail. you, or make you look bad, its harder to achieve anything because you're not respected. Shepard was the first Spectre and thus represented Earth and the Alliance.
[/quote]
He represented just the Alliance. The Alliance represented Earth and all other affiliated colonies, so why not have that trial on Mindoir? Oh that's right, the Reapers aren't going to attack Mindoir, and none of the EA/BioWare customers lives on Mindoir, so yeah... But those are out-of-game reasons and therefore don't count towards expalining the plot hole.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...
[quote]So the Alliance had better denied involvement as intended.[/quote] And deny that human operatives were found operating in the system prior to the incident?[/quote]Possibly it was all fabrication by the Batarains. And since you've just tried to lecture me on politics, I'll now lecture you: as long as the Alliance denies involvement, the Batarians can go b*tching around all they want, the Galactic community won't give a damn, knowing about their past with the Alliance. But once the Alliance accepts responsoibility of any sort, it loses its face and the upper hand, no matter how many scapegoats it tries to publicly sacrifice.

And in any case, the Alliance can't touch a Spectre of the alien Council.



[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...
[quote]
Because it's not something the authorities, including those in the Systems Alliance want the public to know much about.[/quote] And they have little to no, information, again most of it coming from Shepard who looks incrasingly shaky as a resource in their eyes.[/quote]And since nothing indicates the authorities' wish to change teh stance, shepard should continued to be kept away from the public.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...
[quote]
And again, how this makes Earth any more sensible a place to try (interrogate) Shepard?[/quote]
Because Shepard suddenly disappearing to be interrogated would be viewed as suspicous to say the least. Better where everyone can see him.[/quote]Yeah, everybody has been seeing a lot of Shepard in his stealth frigate.



[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...
[quote]
Since Earth can accomodate "the rest of the Galaxy" no more than the Arcturus Station, "the rest of the Galaxy" will have to watch the trial (if it's made publilc at all, which isn't yet clear) on their vid screens. As for the alien dignitaries, should they be allowed to be present in person, I'm more than sure the Arcurus Station (being the capital of the Alliance) can accomodate dozens of them.[/quote]
If i have to explain the metaphor of "the world was watching', I will be very sad. But it applies here: essentially what the Alliance and Earth does will be observed and dissected by the rest of the galaxy.[/quote]
All Earth does is rotating around its axis while revolving around the Sun.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

Further, it would be easier to accomadate a trial and any visiting dignitaries for a possible long term trial on a plane than a space station.[/quote]
Tell that to the inhabitants of the Citadel's Presidium.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

Arcturus is a military base, not a media compound.[/quote]
It is all in one. It is the capital of the Systems Alliance. The Parliament is there. Are you saying the media has no access to the Alliance Pariament?


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...
[quote]
The Systems Alliance is the political body of Humanity. The Capital of the Alliance is the Arcturus Station.

Also, if Shepard is a spectre, he is the Citadel Council's mad dog, so why would the Alliance be taking any responsibility?[/quote]
1. As we've established, the Allliance draws influence and backing from Earth,[/quote]
The Alliance draws influence from it's colonial resource mining operations and the military might of its Navy. Earth adds nothing to that.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

and even thogh its the capital of the Alliance, Earth is still part of the game.
[/quote]
Feros is part of the game too. Why not hold the trial there?


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

The Alliance was the machine Earth put in place as the governing body of its colonies and outposts, and the Alliance was beholden to Earth until 2157 A.D.[/quote]fixed.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

2. The Alliance put Shepard forward as a Spectre candidate
[/quote]fixed.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

, and Spectres wield a lot of power, and the responsibility to use it, and have to be trusted. If the Spectre in question abuses that power to an extreme end(working with terrorists, mass murder), it makes sense  to look at those who suggested him. After all they knew who he was, and what he'd done, with greater acess to his after action reports,
[/quote]
It makes sense that the Spectres be tried by the only authority they respond to. Unless, of course, someone seeks very hard to hurt the relations with said authority.


[quote]Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...
[quote]
Or it's an easy cop-out for the writers, allowing to just handwave the lore and the possible variations of Shepard's standing in the Galaxy due to the Big Choices.[/quote]
And you see plot holes where they aren't. 
[/quote]
And you're trying too hard to persuade yourself that they aren't there, even though they are glaring due to the obviousness of the out-of -game reasons, which they were put where they are for.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 12 avril 2011 - 12:39 .

[KJandrew]

@ Mr Sniper Rifle. If Shepard is a Spectre he can't be tried at all by Earth or the Alliance. Only the council can call him out on anything he does. In fact if he were to forced into having a trial on earth that would be hindering a Spectre/Council mission and investigation which i'm pretty sure counts as some form of crime

[Thompson family]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

1000!

Is that total replies in this thread, or just yours?

Modifié par Thompson family, 12 avril 2011 - 12:28 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Arcian wrote...

Plot holes are situations in which the canon of a franchise is contradicted by new canon.

That's a ret-con you're talking about.

A big enough leap in logic may be considered a plot hole, since it kind of leaves a hole in the plot.

I don't say the trial on Earth is impossible, I say it's inexplicable with the available narrative. And I dare to take the guess that it's not going to change in ME3.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 12 avril 2011 - 12:48 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Thompson family wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

1000!

Is that total replies in this thread, or just yours?[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

I think it's my first thread ever to reach a thousand total replies, so I just couldn't resist. Thanks to all my fangirls, I love you all! [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

[Capeo]

Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

Wait, i thought that if Shep is a spectre he can't be tried. I was under the impression that Spectres have the authority to do whatever they want to protect the galaxy unless the council themselves call them on it?

Reapers invade Earth, man, that's why Shepard needs to be put on Earth. Spectre, Alliance, Cerberus - it doesn't matter.

This approach is approved by the "AYV Group, Inc.", so you better start running, heretic! [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/bandit.png[/smilie]

Actually it makes sense that the trial takes place on Earth. See it from the perspective of the Alliance.

Earth in a very real sense is the beating heart of the Alliance. Old, proud and powerful, it’s the most important human world politically economically and symbolically. Arcturus Station  might be the core of the Alliance Navy, but
Earth is the heart of human culture.  There are other important colonies, surely, but Earth by far is the most prestigious.

Now look at Shepard: decorated officer with a well known reputation, and humanity’s first Spectre to boot. Shepard is in many ways is the ideal of humanity, at its best as well as at its worst, and represents the
future hopes and dreams of the human species as a whole.  The galaxy watches what Shepard does with keen interest.

And then Shepard annihilates an entire system, murders everyone within it, all by destroying one of the most important and irreplaceable machines in the galaxy: a mass relay. And all this in the name of stopping Reapers, of which information is scant..

You have to remember, the only people who know about the Reaper threat are the Normandy crew(former or current), Admiral Hackett, Anderson , Cerberus and the Geth. Very few of these people see eye to eye, and
more to the point, not all of them are reliable or believable sources of information. Everyone else who knows is either dead, insane or actively working to assist the Reapers.

To say the least, Shepard looks unhinged, completely mad at the worst. Now Shepard is a ticking time bomb, an intergalactic incident waiting to blow up in the Systems Alliance’s collective face. And with the batarians chomping at the bit for a war that humanity neither want or can afford without heavy losses, the Alliance now has to do the only reasonable thing left to them.

They call him in, or they drag him back in chains if he won’t come willingly. Then they put him in the courtroom to argue his case. He’s not only being tried before the Alliance, but the rest of the galaxy is watching; if he’s truly innocent, then that’s great, . If he’s guilty, then it’s a sign that humanity takes care of their mad dogs and can do so without bias.

Also, it’s more fittingly dramatic for the writers, which isn’t a shabby reason either.

I'm not going to go point for point but most of what you said is untrue or misconstrued.  The Alliance has no control over Shepard anymore.  He owes allegiance to nobody at this point except maybe the council if you didn't tell them to go screw.  On top of that, Hackett says as much.  That's why he wants you to go.  Also, Earth is not the heart of the Alliance.  Arcturus is when it comes to military affairs.  On top of that, going before the council would make more sense than anything else.  This is a galactic matter.

Most importantly, and most senselessly in plot terms, nobody but Hackett has any clue that Shep had anything to do with the relay being destroyed.  Everyone else in the system was killed.  What the hell is Shepard even answering for and how would the Batarians even know it was him?  They couldn't.  Nothing in Arrival makes any sense whatsoever.  Hackett knew they were going to blow up the relay.  They couldn't have built that base without anyone knowing.  Hackett knows the Reapers are real and they are on the doorstep of the galaxy yet he'd turn in the one person who can do something about it?  Even though he's the only person who knows Shepard had anything to do with the relay blowing?  How did this info suddenly get everywhere?

And all this is putting aside the idiocy of the indoctrinated scientists who maintained the one weapon that could ruin the Reapers plan rather than destroying it when they've had ample time to do so.  All so the hackneyed plot could shackle Shepard into one of the stupidest reasons to start ME3 on earth that I can think of. 

It was infuriating at the end of Arrival when Hackett was all "when Earth calls you have to come in your dress blues".  I wanted to be like, "F you, asswipe!  Did you not hear what I just said?  Reapers?  Edge of the galaxy?  All life being wiped out?"   And this douche is worried about a trial?  Idiotic. 

[archurban]

fortunately trial won't be proceeded thank to (?) reapers attack in the middle of trial. Earth is destroyed, Shepard escapes to Normandy, go to safe place in order to make a plan of taking Earth back. so trial will look like the situation which we don't know what was happened, and forget about it.

[Destroy Raiden_]

Truth be told we have no clue what happens or where rouge spectors are tried so it could be Citadel/ Council procedures that rouges be tried at their home worlds even if shep is spacer or colonist he is still human and in galactic terms = Earthling regardless if he was born there or not. Saren for all we know could've been or would've been tried at Palvin if shep was able to bring him in alive no reference to how spectors are tried for war or interstellar crimes are noted.

Trying shep on a space station even a more human dominated one is not safe anyone can blow up a station or cause damage and create havoc and get shep out or kill him during said chaos so the Alliance and the Council won't take that change putting him on Earth even trying him in a bunker would be better then a station and limiting the trial to TV only would be the best options to avoid an assassination attempt or rescue.

I agree shep being imprisoned on Earth will be tough how exactly do you keep a cyborg in prison short of cryo and even getting him into cryo would be tough.

I'm alittle disappointed Hackett said that the evidence was shotty sure things can be rigged to look bad, files erased or altered, voices added to taken away as kasumi did w/ hocks voice for the pass word, witnesses bribed to be silent or to say lies, ect. so I still have alot of potential railroading to look forward too.

I wanted to save the batarian colony but not because of the guards but the families who didn't do anything even Midior shep could recognize the families of those guards weren't slavers like the ones who attacked him but realistically if shep sent that message would they really have believed him? I mean a human calling in saying hey you've got 2 days to get all your peeps off that rock and throught that gate before I blow it to pieces. Really the governmental bodies if they took the warning seriously would've packed up and forgot to tell everyone else.

I wanted shep to go to trial not just for arrival but other acts that could be twisted to make him seem like a bad guy I want BW to make his lawyers put up a great effort maybe a win in argument or two but with all the twisting, lies, manipulation, and suppression through motion the other guys will do the lawyer would have to meet with shep and say it's looking bad I know they're falsifying things but there is no way for me to prove it. I'd like a few turns or days at trial we have a session lasting 20 -30min counts as day 1 speek with lawyer then day 2 another talk then finally day 3 and verdict I just can't decide if they should sentenced him to death, hand him to the batarians so they can decide his fate, or put him into a mental institution because of his reaper rantings. The only real card the sheps lawyer has is to say he's too insane to stand trial and if shep agrees to it he might get asylum in some max security location or if shep refuses he'd get another outcome for conviction.


EDIT: more for BWs notes on trial everyday you speak to the lawyer players have several decisions they must make about what they'll do for instance day 1 trial happens and ends the lawyer meets with shep in his cell and says " given everything you provided me I tried today but we're taking a beating here shepard. Tomorrow you can take the stand in your own defense but I'd advise against it considering the opposition is going to ask some questions about your mental state" players can decide if they'll go on stand, wait it out and decide during trial, or go with lawyers advice and stay silent aka allow the lawyer to do all the talking. If the middle option is chosen players at a key point during the debate will be able to interrupt get their lawyers attention shep would whisper to the lawyer and his lawyer would say, " My client wants to make a defense," and shep would go up get sworn in and be interrogated by both sides not long after day ends.

Second meetup w/ lawyer he says he's feeling very bad about all this he knows the other side is falsifying things as shep has already pointed that out during his defense but he can't prove it and unfortunately both the public and the jury are buying the lies." he then asks shep, " I could probably get you off a death sentence if we try to say you're too insane to stand trial or to understand the gravity of what you've done," player decides to go with it or take their chances.

Day 3 a few more Q and A moments and sheps on stand one last time then verdict if you went with your lawyer you're insane and to be placed in an asylum unspecified to the public if you took your chances they either give you death or send you to the batarians so they can decide your fate only fair sense you killed all those people in arrival.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 12 avril 2011 - 03:03 .

[KingDan97]

Oooh fun another engaging Zulu thread... I'll bite, but you're getting one post out of me Zulu, no more.

The way that I see it, this trial is little more than symbollic. Is it a gap in logic, sure but honestly Zulu you assume way to large a knowledge of the Galaxy Bioware have founded, they are the ones with the series Bible, they decide what is and isn't cannon, not you. If you want to dissect it, go be Smud for all I care but your self-proclaimed supremacy over Bioware's knowledge of their own franchise is foolish if not downright arrogant. If Bioware says the Alliance decided to try Shepard on Earth, they did. That's the end of it. Whatever the reason, that's just how it is and all of you're bawwing and dismissing won't change that.

More important than that, it's a plot point. You're making the same inane argument that Smud made about Shepard's resurrection. In the end though, all it equates to is "it's not how I would've done it". There are no established standards for this, no qualifications by which Bioware has stated where a defendant is tried, so if this is their policy for crimes of genocide than that's what it is, regardless of how much you smash your fists on the ground and hold your breath.