1529 réponses à ce sujet

[Halo Quea]

Raven1015 wrote...

 

Batarian government to Alliance: "Who the hell just blew up our system?  We knew your people were in the system."
Alliance: *shrug* "Wasn't me"
Citadel to Alliance: "Who the hell just violated the Citadel Conventions?  We hear your people were in the system and don't like the Batarians much?"
Alliance: *shrug* "I don't know"
Batarian: "Ok then, we interpret this as an act of war.  Your people were in the system, and you can't explain how they shouldn't be blamed for this action.  Prepare to die!"
Citadel: "We will hold you accountable for violating the Citadel Conventions unless you can show that you were not involved."
Alliance: "Shepard did it!"

Well this of course is what burns me. Shepard FINALLY gets nailed for doing one of Admiral Hackett's missions.  Missions for Hackett involved everything from black bag projects, the (potential) massacre of an entire community of biotics and a nuclear bomb.

In my view Shepard has just finally gotten caught in the blast of the blowback of one of Hackett's dirty little missions.  And Shepard has to fall on his sword to satisfy everyone's sense of justice and right vs wrong.

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]ifander wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]ifander wrote...
Where does the SA get its funding?
[/quote]
Where does Earth get its funding?
[/quote]
So Earth depends on the SA to some extent. The SA is dependant on Earth as well. 
[/quote]
There is no known Eezo deposits in the Solar system. Therefore, Earth fully depends on the Alliance as far as Eezo is concerned. The Alliance depends on Earth as far as TIM's vintage smokes are concerned.


[quote]ifander wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]ifander wrote...
Its manpower?
[/quote]
Where do the Geth get their manpower?
[/quote]
Are you suggesting that Earth is irrelevant to the SA for manpower?
[/quote]
I am suggesting that due to the level of automation, and robotization of all industrial activity (and even warfare), the factor of manpower is of little importance, and the Alliance is pretty much content with what it already has as far as the manpower is concerned.


[quote]ifander wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]ifander wrote...
Sure, humanity has quite a few colonies, but the vast majority of humans reside on Earth.
[/quote]
So what?
[/quote]
I don't know about you, but I'd say protecting the major population center of a civilisation is more important than some colonies.
[/quote]
Why? Out of kindnes of your heart? Anyway, Earth is quite protected by deafault since any attacker needs to take control of the Arcturus system first to advance in the Solar system. Except the Reapers that is, so I'm hopeful Arcturus gets spared. If Arcturus station and the Alliance Navy is destroyed by the Reapers, then yes, the Alliance is done with and Humanity is at the mercy of other races.


[quote]ifander wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]ifander wrote...

So Earth may have little say in the day-to-day operations of the Alliance, but the Alliance mandate is still to work in the best interest of humanity, and since most of humanity resides on Earth, that is its primary concern.
[/quote]
The concern of any political body is its own perpetuation.
[/quote]
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]ifander wrote...

Stating that the SA can ignore Earth is like stating that the EU can simply ignore its member states and do whatever it wants.
[/quote]
If the EU built a base on the Moon that would provide ALL the resources that the EU needed to maintain its armed forces and the Moon Base, and the population of Europe became totally dependent of the constant influx of resources from the Moon, and the EU honchos moved in the Moon Base with all their relatives and worldly posessions... Then hell yes, Europe could as well go to hell, get conquered by the Arabs or Russians or whomever, since they would be also dependent on the EU-supplied resources from the Moon.
[/quote]
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]ifander wrote...
Without Earth there is no SA.
[/quote]
I love history too.
[/quote]
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]ifander wrote...
Without its member states, there is no European Union.
[/quote]
Until the EU builds the Moon Base.
[/quote]
You're implying that the preservation and betterment of humanity is secondary to some other goal the SA may have which is... what? Carreer advancement? Politicians getting rich? Are you really that cynical?
[/quote]
I'm implying that without the Alliance there is no preservation and betterment of humanity, therefore the preservation of non-critical population comes second to the preservation of the political body that is the only capable of any preservation activities.


[quote]ifander wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]ifander wrote...
Having the trial on, say, Eden Prime may have been a plot hole. Having it on Earth is not, seeing as how it's the capital of humanity. It may be somewhat odd, I'll admit, but seeing as how Shepard is famous and all it would make sense for his trial to be held on Earth. At the very least it is not completely implausible, a basic criteria for it to be a plot hole.
[/quote]
It is completely implausible that Hackett would know this in advance.
[/quote]
Not to be a dick, but what do you mean by this?
[/quote]
I mean how could Hackett possibly know that the trial would be held on Earth and not on the Arcturus Station, even if all those considerations (symbolism or whatever) were to come?


[quote]ifander wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]ifander wrote...
Here's one scenario:

Hackett, knowing the SA is itching to crucify Shepard for the Batarian incident, makes sure the trial is held on Earth where Shepard would get a lot of support from the public. It makes it harder for the Alliance to get rid of her. It's basic politics. The Alliance may be "independent" but pissing off the public hardly makes their job easier.
[/quote]
And what's the point of having this trial at all, if Hackett could simply not tell anywone that Shepard was involved, or survived the incident?
[/quote]
I gave a perfectly acceptable explanation for the trial being held on Earth and you choose to question the validity of the trial itself? Way to dodge the argument...
[/quote]
I'm tired of repeating myself how the "perfectly acceptable explanations" need to be part of the narrative, do yeah, I am questioning the pretext of the trial itself now. How is it logical to stage a black op, only to suddenly accept responsibility for it?


[quote]ifander wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]ifander wrote..
So enough with this lame plot hole calling. Calling something a plot hole without even knowing the full story is idiotic at best.
[/quote]
Given the fact that the "Arrival" DLC is finished and played, and the ME2 manner of writing, I have all the premises to deduce that we won't be given so much as one line of explanation of what the "full story" has been.
[/quote]
Again, calling out plot holes before they technically exist is pretty lame.
[/quote]
The plot hole already exists in the "Arrival" DLC, and consists of Hackett's leaps and lapses of logic and foreknowledge.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 12 avril 2011 - 11:16 .

[SalsaDMA]

bobobo878 wrote...

If Saren had his Spectre status revoked for working with Geth, murdering Nihlus, and attacking Eden Prime, why can't Shepard have his/her status revoked for working with Cerberus, murdering Tela Vasir and attacking Arahot? I woudn't be surprised if in Mass Effect 3 other Spectres are sent to bring in Shepard.

If the writers had bothered putting it into the plot, then no, it wouldn't have been an issue.

However they write Hackett to go full throttle on telling Shepard to meet up without the council even having been informed of the thing by Shepard, the alliance, the batarians or anyone else.

As is, they left a gaping hole there because they just couldn't be arsed to do their work proper. Or maybe they didn't ahve time because of their timeschedules, who knows.

[Capeo]

The whole thing makes no sense because Shepard is beholden to nobody at this point except maybe the Council if you retained your Spectre status. Putting aside the fact that they shoehorned this whole plot in, with all its inconsistencies, simply to get Shep to Earth, Shepard would be far more concerned about the very impending Reaper invasion he just frickin' learned about. There's no sense in turning yourself in when the Reapers will reach a relay in weeks. There will be no need to prove anything to anybody soon and the Batarians are going to take the Reapers opening salvo so there's no real worry of them doing much anyway. Risking being imprisoned by the Alliance who disowned you anyway makes no sense at all.

The whole thing, a giant Reaper artifact that somehow humans find but the Batarians never have, the idiocy of how the indoctrinated scientists kept the one snag in the Reapers plans operational when they could just pull the plug and insure success, stupefyingly inept imprisonment methods, Kenison having a bomb the whole time but not using it, an asteroid being able to destroy a relay (there would be none left), Hackett not protecting you though he knows the Reapers are real is a horribly ill conceived way to start ME3 on Earth so they can open the game with some crazy Earth destruction before you go out and start collecting allies again like in 2.

There's a million simpler ways to get Shepard to Earth without a mission that removes any semblance of choice and beats the crap out of lore and common sense.

[Thalorin1919]

It's not a plothole that Shepard's trial is on earth.

The Batarians view the events of Arrival as purely Alliance doing. Having the humans themselves put Shepard on trial - on Earth, shows that the Alliance wasn't part of this, and that they went to justify the situation as well.

So basically, it's on Earth, to show more support to peace to avoid war with the Batarians, therefore putting Shepard on trial at the center of humanity.

Also, half of you just seem to throw in the words 'plothole' or 'cliche' when you see something you don't like, though the term doesn't apply at all.

This forum ****es and moans more then anyother.

[Zulu_DFA]

Raven1015 wrote...

Ok, maybe not just like that, but you get the idea.  The Alliance only has a few options.  Deny everything, even though from the galaxy's perspective, they've got crumbs on their lips from the cookie jar.  Pick someone to be a patsy, perhaps Dr. Kenson who is dead already, but is tied directly to the Alliance.  Or pick a "rogue" operative who could easily be painted as being disconnected from the Alliance and/or unstable.  There would probably be some in the Alliance who see Shepard as a liability, as hard as that may be to believe.  Admiral Hackett's not one of them, but maybe he sees the writing on the wall and feels that Shepard can dictate the terms of the trial if he turns himself in.  Blowing up a mass relay is a dangerous precedent that the powers that be need to see addressed.  That is why it's a big deal, and not necessarily the 300,000 lives.  

The problem with that is that if you want to deny involvement, it shouldn't be you to do the picking of the patsy.

Raven1015 wrote...

As for the whole Earth issue, I'm staying out of that one.  Realistically, the designers wanted a trial on Earth for the "cool factor", and it can be explained that a public, civilian trial is necessary to placate authorities, as a military trial on the Arcturus station would be seen as too shadowy and removed from transparency.

That's right (the bolded part).

As to the explanation, it needs to be present in the game, and include a few lines dealing with how Earth's "public" is more important in the Affair, than the Galaxy's "public" on the Citadel, especially if Shepard is a spectre giving the Alliance all the reason it needs to stay out of this whole affair.

[xzxzxz701]

Capeo wrote...

The whole thing makes no sense because Shepard is beholden to nobody at this point except maybe the Council if you retained your Spectre status. Putting aside the fact that they shoehorned this whole plot in, with all its inconsistencies, simply to get Shep to Earth, Shepard would be far more concerned about the very impending Reaper invasion he just frickin' learned about. There's no sense in turning yourself in when the Reapers will reach a relay in weeks. There will be no need to prove anything to anybody soon and the Batarians are going to take the Reapers opening salvo so there's no real worry of them doing much anyway. Risking being imprisoned by the Alliance who disowned you anyway makes no sense at all.

First, the Reapers are months, not weeks away. Second, to the Batarians this looks like an act of war by the Alliance, so they need somebody to take the blame for what happened. Oh look, its Commander killed 300,000 Batarians that might start a war Shepard! Lets blame him.

Shepard is not about to risk the Batarians and Alliance blowing each other up before the Reapers come, so he would be willing to take the blame. Its perfectly logical.

[Centauri2002]

This is the impression I got from Arrival:

Shepard doesn't have to be reinstated as a Spectre so it's quite possible she may be seen merely as a rogue human (mainly due to the Cerberus link, I imagine, but also because she can be unaffiliated in some game saves). That doesn't mean the Council aren't going to want to try her at some point but the assumption doesn't lie there by the end of the DLC because there's only been contact with Hackett.

The trial being on Earth is about damage control for humanity. They don't want to go to war with the batarians and so this is pretty much a show trial. Of course, it's possibly a ruse to get Shepard out of the way since those nasty Cerberus rumours have been flying around since she's come back on the scene.

I think it probably would be more likely that the Council would step in once they learn of events as a means to keep peace in the galaxy but we wouldn't see that by the end of Arrival. Then again, the trial is definitely going to happen on Earth so I guess the speculation is pointless. >.>

[Zulu_DFA]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

It's not a plothole that Shepard's trial is on earth.

It is. There is neither lore reason, nor story explanation for it.

Thalorin1919 wrote...

The Batarians view the events of Arrival as purely Alliance doing. Having the humans themselves put Shepard on trial - on Earth,

Why on Earth?

Thalorin1919 wrote...

shows that the Alliance wasn't part of this, and that they went to justify the situation as well.

Trying Shepard for anything is assuming responsiblity for his actions. And it's just inviting the Batarains to ask for reparations.

Thalorin1919 wrote...

So basically, it's on Earth, to show more support to peace to avoid war with the Batarians, therefore putting Shepard on trial at the center of humanity.

How is having the trial on Earth more supportive of peace, than having the trial on the Arcturus Station? Are they going to let a bunch of grass-smoking hippies into the court-room?

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Also, half of you just seem to throw in the words 'plothole' or 'cliche' when you see something you don't like, though the term doesn't apply at all.

This forum ****es and moans more then anyother.

So, there aren't any plot holes in ME3, because people don't know what a plot hole is. Perfect conjecture, thank you for the input, what about Shepard's spectre status?

[Moiaussi]

Arcian wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

I think the confusion is that the Alliance isn't completely independant of Earth. Earth would still be a large voting block. Earth just is no longer the centre of government (although that is a bit of a plot hole too. Moving enough people within 30 years to outnumber the population of Earth seems unlikely.... again, the writers don't seem to be able to handle scale)

They have done no such thing. Earth still represents over 95% of the human population in the galaxy, and that is probably a gross overstatement.

According to Zulu the entire colonial population sits on around 40 million people, with the rest on Earth with its 11.4 billion people.

That is my point exactly though. The writers keep presenting the Alliance as if there is an actual empire rather than Earth and a few outpost worlds/minor colonies. The leadership should be at Earth and there shouldn't be any major political issues with the colonies this early since they are still small. The whole 'expand quickly' thing shouldn't even be there, since there is plenty of room yet on currently established colonies.

That does not change the fact that the Alliance HQ is at Arcturus and the colonies are treated as if they are substantial and important. That is canon, whether it makes sense or not.

[Capeo]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

It's not a plothole that Shepard's trial is on earth.

The Batarians view the events of Arrival as purely Alliance doing. Having the humans themselves put Shepard on trial - on Earth, shows that the Alliance wasn't part of this, and that they went to justify the situation as well.

So basically, it's on Earth, to show more support to peace to avoid war with the Batarians, therefore putting Shepard on trial at the center of humanity.

Also, half of you just seem to throw in the words 'plothole' or 'cliche' when you see something you don't like, though the term doesn't apply at all.

This forum ****es and moans more then anyother.

No.  Most everything I wrote above your post is a plot hole by definition.  The rest is just bad writing.  The whole idea of Shepard subjecting himself to a trial when he knows the Reapers are now in the galaxy is ridiculous.  He owes no allegiance to the Alliance and would now know that Batarian space is literally days away from being attacked by Reapers which, I'm pretty sure, will make them worry less about humans.  The whole idea that the higher ups in the Alliance, who clearly know the Reapers are real, would subject the only human in the galaxy that knows anything about them to a public trial is ludicrous.  There's no evidence connecting Shepard to the relay blowing.  They could pick any scapegoat they want, but even that makes no sense because Arrival just compressed the time scale so much. 

[Zulu_DFA]

Capeo wrote...

There's a million simpler ways to get Shepard to Earth without a mission that removes any semblance of choice and beats the crap out of lore and common sense.

QFT.

Number One: Shepard has been already tried (off-screen), acquitted, but discharged from Council/Alliance duty, received a call from Anderson and drops by his London appartment. BOOM, Reapers invade.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 12 avril 2011 - 11:14 .

[Thalorin1919]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...

It's not a plothole that Shepard's trial is on earth.

It is. There is neither lore reason, nor story explanation for it.

Thalorin1919 wrote...

The Batarians view the events of Arrival as purely Alliance doing. Having the humans themselves put Shepard on trial - on Earth,

Why on Earth?

Thalorin1919 wrote...

shows that the Alliance wasn't part of this, and that they went to justify the situation as well.

Trying Shepard for anything is assuming responsiblity for his actions. And it's just inviting the Batarains to ask for reparations.

Thalorin1919 wrote...

So basically, it's on Earth, to show more support to peace to avoid war with the Batarians, therefore putting Shepard on trial at the center of humanity.

How is having the trial on Earth more supportive of peace, than having the trial on the Arcturus Station? Are they going to let a bunch of grass-smoking hippies into the court-room?

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Also, half of you just seem to throw in the words 'plothole' or 'cliche' when you see something you don't like, though the term doesn't apply at all.

This forum ****es and moans more then anyother.

So, there aren't any plot holes in ME3, because people don't know what a plot hole is. Perfect conjecture, thank you for the input, what about Shepard's spectre status?

You kind of contradicted my points by just rephrasing them into the same questions I LITERALLY just answered. But hey, great job.

I don't think the Council gives two hoots that he was a Spectre. Even if they did reinstate you in ME2 - it wasn't official, and nobody knew about it. Shepard can go around saying he is all he wants, but the Council doesn't have to back him up in public - especially after it happened in Arrival.

Arcturus Station is a military station, a critical one. I don't see why they would hold a trial on that place, when Earth is the center of human government. Derp?

And on that note, if you were the Batarians, wouldn't you feel more respected if they held Shepard's trial at Earth, rather then some station? I know I would, and it makes sense.

Maybe the writers hope that the fans can apply some basic sense, rather then nitpicking at it, because they didn't get what they want - like you, who apparently has an erection for Arcturus Station.

Oh, and putting Shepard on trial for his actions doesn't mean they are assuming 'responsibility'. In fact, that may be the most ludicrous statement I've ever seen on this forum. Does that mean that when a murderer is on trial in court for killing someon, that the judge and attorney are responsible as well?

Modifié par Thalorin1919, 12 avril 2011 - 11:17 .

[Centauri2002]

Motivation for Shepard to actually attend a trial aside, the best reason for the trial being on Earth that I can think of is because it's mostly for show. What better place to hold it than the mother planet of humanity, which holds the highest human population? All eyes will be looking at humanity when it takes place. Not at a military station, not at the council, but at humanity.

That's the best reasoning I can come up with, I'm afraid. >.>

[Capeo]

xzxzxz701 wrote...

Capeo wrote...

The whole thing makes no sense because Shepard is beholden to nobody at this point except maybe the Council if you retained your Spectre status. Putting aside the fact that they shoehorned this whole plot in, with all its inconsistencies, simply to get Shep to Earth, Shepard would be far more concerned about the very impending Reaper invasion he just frickin' learned about. There's no sense in turning yourself in when the Reapers will reach a relay in weeks. There will be no need to prove anything to anybody soon and the Batarians are going to take the Reapers opening salvo so there's no real worry of them doing much anyway. Risking being imprisoned by the Alliance who disowned you anyway makes no sense at all.

First, the Reapers are months, not weeks away. Second, to the Batarians this looks like an act of war by the Alliance, so they need somebody to take the blame for what happened. Oh look, its Commander killed 300,000 Batarians that might start a war Shepard! Lets blame him.

Shepard is not about to risk the Batarians and Alliance blowing each other up before the Reapers come, so he would be willing to take the blame. Its perfectly logical.

First, Kenison says "weeks maybe months".  I think Shepard, as any intelligent person would, would err on the short side.  Secondly, the Reapers will be coming through Batarian space first so I don't think they'll be worrying about humans long.  Third, using Shepard as a scapegoat, when they can choose anyone, is idiotic since the higher ups clearly know the Reapers exist and wouldn't put the single person who has gone toe to toe with them on trial and potentially in prison.  They MADE The Project.  Kenison didn't do that on her own. 

So no, it's not logical.  Logical would have been using Arrival to make Shepard aware of how close the Reapers actually were and that Earth would be on their early hitlist.  That would be enough to make him go to Earth on his own rather the ridiculous logical leaps they took instead (the trial on Earth actually being the least of them).

[jimmyjoefro]

My only answer to why it's on Earth is this:

Shepard's actions killed 300,000 Batarians. They're going to want war.

The Alliance are going to deny having anything to do with Shepard since he wasn't following their orders, isn't part of the Alliance anymore, and is working, presumably, for Cerburus.  Hackett, on the other hand, is probably going to have to answer to the Alliance.

Shepard's "crime" (I'd call it an unfortunate but necessary sacrifice) is strictly a human-on-Batarian incident. That leaves trial and punishment up the human leadership on Earth, and they are going to want to make an example of Shepard to the Batarians in order to avoid war.

Modifié par jimmyjoefro, 12 avril 2011 - 11:33 .

[Capeo]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Capeo wrote...

There's a million simpler ways to get Shepard to Earth without a mission that removes any semblance of choice and beats the crap out of lore and common sense.

QFT.

Number One: Shepard has been already tried (off-screen), acquitted, but discharged from Council/Alliance duty, received a call from Anderson and drops by his London appartment. BOOM, Reapers invade.

Or simply write a good DLC called Arrival where Shepard learns how close the Reapers are, that they are heading to Earth soon, and BOOM: logical motivation for Shepard no matter how the player has RPed him.

[Thalorin1919]

Capeo wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...

It's not a plothole that Shepard's trial is on earth.

The Batarians view the events of Arrival as purely Alliance doing. Having the humans themselves put Shepard on trial - on Earth, shows that the Alliance wasn't part of this, and that they went to justify the situation as well.

So basically, it's on Earth, to show more support to peace to avoid war with the Batarians, therefore putting Shepard on trial at the center of humanity.

Also, half of you just seem to throw in the words 'plothole' or 'cliche' when you see something you don't like, though the term doesn't apply at all.

This forum ****es and moans more then anyother.

No.  Most everything I wrote above your post is a plot hole by definition.  The rest is just bad writing.  The whole idea of Shepard subjecting himself to a trial when he knows the Reapers are now in the galaxy is ridiculous.  He owes no allegiance to the Alliance and would now know that Batarian space is literally days away from being attacked by Reapers which, I'm pretty sure, will make them worry less about humans.  The whole idea that the higher ups in the Alliance, who clearly know the Reapers are real, would subject the only human in the galaxy that knows anything about them to a public trial is ludicrous.  There's no evidence connecting Shepard to the relay blowing.  They could pick any scapegoat they want, but even that makes no sense because Arrival just compressed the time scale so much. 

Nobody knows when the Reapers are going to come. When they are putting Shepard on trial, it's not like they know the Reapers are arriving the next day, but are just ignoring it. All they've known is that they have been stopped - for now. And that time period is enough time for a war to spark between Batarians and Humans for what happened.

Sure, Shepard doesn't own any allegiance. But who's allegiance is he going to get if he doesn't even have the trust of his own people? Not much, I'm betting. He would have to attend that trial and fix things, whether he likes it or not. And Hackett knows that Shepard was involved, and thats how the Alliance knows.

Besides, this an opportunity to finally reveal the actuality of the Reapers. At a trial, while at the same time, quelling the heat between Humans and Batarians.

If you think that the idea of great heroes being put on trial is 'ludicrous', I'm sure there are alot of stories and parts of history that you don't like then. It's not a dumb idea. It's happened.

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]Thalorin1919 wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]Thalorin1919 wrote...

It's not a plothole that Shepard's trial is on earth.
[/quote]
It is. There is neither lore reason, nor story explanation for it.


[quote]Thalorin1919 wrote...

The Batarians view the events of Arrival as purely Alliance doing. Having the humans themselves put Shepard on trial - on Earth,[/quote]
Why on Earth?


[quote]Thalorin1919 wrote...

shows that the Alliance wasn't part of this, and that they went to justify the situation as well.[/quote]
Trying Shepard for anything is assuming responsiblity for his actions. And it's just inviting the Batarains to ask for reparations.


[quote]Thalorin1919 wrote...

So basically, it's on Earth, to show more support to peace to avoid war with the Batarians, therefore putting Shepard on trial at the center of humanity.[/quote] How is having the trial on Earth more supportive of peace, than having the trial on the Arcturus Station? Are they going to let a bunch of grass-smoking hippies into the court-room?


[quote]Thalorin1919 wrote...

Also, half of you just seem to throw in the words 'plothole' or 'cliche' when you see something you don't like, though the term doesn't apply at all.

This forum ****es and moans more then anyother.[/quote]
So, there aren't any plot holes in ME3, because people don't know what a plot hole is. Perfect conjecture, thank you for the input, what about Shepard's spectre status?[/quote]
You kind of contradicted my points by just rephrasing them into the same questions I LITERALLY just answered. But hey, great job.
[/quote]
That's because you answered no questions, but just stated that Earth somehow magically fits into all this.


[quote]Thalorin1919 wrote...

I don't think the Council gives two hoots that he was a Spectre. Even if they did reinstate you in ME2 - it wasn't official, and nobody knew about it.[/quote]
Wrong, you can pull your spectre status to get the blacklisted Asari off the Citadel. You can't do that, if you haven't been reinstated, so it's quite official.


[quote]Thalorin1919 wrote...

Shepard can go around saying he is all he wants, but the Council doesn't have to back him up in public - especially after it happened in Arrival.
[/quote]
Who says something about backing? How about the Council accepting the responsibility for a Spectre's actions? Since the Alliance wants to shift the blame? Sure, it might not work, so the Council tosses the problem back to the Alliance, but it needs to be addressed in the narrative, or it's a plot hole, as in "gap in the plot", "a breach", "a flaw".


[quote]Thalorin1919 wrote...

Arcturus Station is a military station, a critical one. I don't see why they would hold a trial on that place, when Earth is the center of human government. Derp?
[/quote]
The Arcturus Station is the center of Human government, derp. Since its happens to be not only a military station, but also a "parliamentary" station. As in "hosts the Systems Alliance Parliament", since its formation in 2160, and it's a f*cking Capital of the Systems Alliance.


[quote]Thalorin1919 wrote...

And on that note, if you were the Batarians, wouldn't you feel more respected if they held Shepard's trial at Earth, rather then some station? I know I would, and it makes sense.
[/quote]
It's not some station. It's the most powerful Human space station where the most powerful Humans decide the fates of other Humans. And as a Batarian, a member of a cast system society, I'd definitely more respect that, than some planet that would be a juicy target for my slave grab expeditions, if not for that pesky space station.


[quote]Thalorin1919 wrote...

Maybe the writers hope that the fans can apply some basic sense, rather then nitpicking at it, because they didn't get what they want - like you, who apparently has an erection for Arcturus Station.
[/quote]
It's actually the fans (not all of them, but some) that hope that the writers can apply some basic sense, rather than punching holes in the plot and retconning the lore everytime something "cool" strikes their minds.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 12 avril 2011 - 11:45 .

[Capeo]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Nobody knows when the Reapers are going to come. When they are putting Shepard on trial, it's not like they know the Reapers are arriving the next day, but are just ignoring it. All they've known is that they have been stopped - for now. And that time period is enough time for a war to spark between Batarians and Humans for what happened.

Sure, Shepard doesn't own any allegiance. But who's allegiance is he going to get if he doesn't even have the trust of his own people? Not much, I'm betting. He would have to attend that trial and fix things, whether he likes it or not. And Hackett knows that Shepard was involved, and thats how the Alliance knows.

Besides, this an opportunity to finally reveal the actuality of the Reapers. At a trial, while at the same time, quelling the heat between Humans and Batarians.

If you think that the idea of great heroes being put on trial is 'ludicrous', I'm sure there are alot of stories and parts of history that you don't like then. It's not a dumb idea. It's happened.

They now KNOW the Reapers could be weeks away from a relay that could drop them in our solar system.  The Alliance knows this now!  Why would Hackett betray Shepard now?  There's any number of people the Alliance could make a scapegoat.  From a political point of view Anderson would make more sense than Shepard. 

And a trial is suddenly going to convince the people of Earth that the Reapers are real?  No.  Sorry.  BW already stated that they're going to know they're real because they are going to attack DURING the trial.  That time and the time prior should be spent convincing the Council not Earth when the Alliance already clearly knows the reality of the Reapers yet is inexplicably ignoring it.

And this is Mass Effect, not Inherit the Wind. 

[Zulu_DFA]

Capeo wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Nobody knows when the Reapers are going to come. When they are putting Shepard on trial, it's not like they know the Reapers are arriving the next day, but are just ignoring it. All they've known is that they have been stopped - for now. And that time period is enough time for a war to spark between Batarians and Humans for what happened.

Sure, Shepard doesn't own any allegiance. But who's allegiance is he going to get if he doesn't even have the trust of his own people? Not much, I'm betting. He would have to attend that trial and fix things, whether he likes it or not. And Hackett knows that Shepard was involved, and thats how the Alliance knows.

Besides, this an opportunity to finally reveal the actuality of the Reapers. At a trial, while at the same time, quelling the heat between Humans and Batarians.

If you think that the idea of great heroes being put on trial is 'ludicrous', I'm sure there are alot of stories and parts of history that you don't like then. It's not a dumb idea. It's happened.

They now KNOW the Reapers could be weeks away from a relay that could drop them in our solar system.  The Alliance knows this now!  Why would Hackett betray Shepard now?  There's any number of people the Alliance could make a scapegoat.  From a political point of view Anderson would make more sense than Shepard. 

And a trial is suddenly going to convince the people of Earth that the Reapers are real?  No.  Sorry.  BW already stated that they're going to know they're real because they are going to attack DURING the trial.  That time and the time prior should be spent convincing the Council not Earth when the Alliance already clearly knows the reality of the Reapers yet is inexplicably ignoring it.

And this is Mass Effect, not Inherit the Wind. 

Well, according to the GI article, the Alliance's idiocy may prove to be quite mild by comparison, when the aliens will be going on their petty strives even as the Reapers are raping Earth and the apocalyptic footage flowing on the Extranet.

Shepard: Hey Quarians! the Reapers have returned, they are currently on Earth probably making more of themselves, and once they are done with it, everybody in the Galaxy is going to die!

Quarians: We don't care, we want our homeworld back.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 12 avril 2011 - 11:57 .

[aeetos21]

I like the **** off I'm a spectre option. I mean was I the only one who picked: "It feels like forever since I was an Alliance soldier" during the LotSB DLC? In fact the whole idea of returning to the role of an Alliance marine in ME3 feels dumb given everything that Shepard has been through. Anyway if Shepard were to be tried it should be by the Council, not the Alliance. I mean come on? Let's say the Batarians did the same thing to the relay near Feros. Humans would want blood, we wouldn't accept the Batarians responsible being tried by the Batarian military. That'd probably make matters worse.

Then again, that's not really the point is it? BW wants us on earth when the Reapers invade, which is cool and everything. I just wish they came up with a better plot device for it.

[xzxzxz701]

Capeo wrote...

xzxzxz701 wrote...

Capeo wrote...

The whole thing makes no sense because Shepard is beholden to nobody at this point except maybe the Council if you retained your Spectre status. Putting aside the fact that they shoehorned this whole plot in, with all its inconsistencies, simply to get Shep to Earth, Shepard would be far more concerned about the very impending Reaper invasion he just frickin' learned about. There's no sense in turning yourself in when the Reapers will reach a relay in weeks. There will be no need to prove anything to anybody soon and the Batarians are going to take the Reapers opening salvo so there's no real worry of them doing much anyway. Risking being imprisoned by the Alliance who disowned you anyway makes no sense at all.

First, the Reapers are months, not weeks away. Second, to the Batarians this looks like an act of war by the Alliance, so they need somebody to take the blame for what happened. Oh look, its Commander killed 300,000 Batarians that might start a war Shepard! Lets blame him.

Shepard is not about to risk the Batarians and Alliance blowing each other up before the Reapers come, so he would be willing to take the blame. Its perfectly logical.

First, Kenison says "weeks maybe months".  I think Shepard, as any intelligent person would, would err on the short side.  Secondly, the Reapers will be coming through Batarian space first so I don't think they'll be worrying about humans long.  Third, using Shepard as a scapegoat, when they can choose anyone, is idiotic since the higher ups clearly know the Reapers exist and wouldn't put the single person who has gone toe to toe with them on trial and potentially in prison.  They MADE The Project.  Kenison didn't do that on her own. 

So no, it's not logical.  Logical would have been using Arrival to make Shepard aware of how close the Reapers actually were and that Earth would be on their early hitlist.  That would be enough to make him go to Earth on his own rather the ridiculous logical leaps they took instead (the trial on Earth actually being the least of them).

Actually no, I'm pretty sure she says it would take the Reapers months or maybe even years to reach the next relay. The higher ups DO have at least some knowledge of the Reapers, but that does not mean that they are going to risk war with the Batarians. They still have a galaxy to run, after all.

So yes, it is perfectly logical for Shepard to stand trial.

[Pwener2313]

Is there an actual justifiable reason why this thread is still going?

[DTKT]

Isn't it way more "iconic" to use Earth in any science-fiction universe?

Seems better than some random made up name.