1529 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

aeetos21 wrote...

I like the **** off I'm a spectre option. I mean was I the only one who picked: "It feels like forever since I was an Alliance soldier" during the LotSB DLC? In fact the whole idea of returning to the role of an Alliance marine in ME3 feels dumb given everything that Shepard has been through. Anyway if Shepard were to be tried it should be by the Council, not the Alliance. I mean come on? Let's say the Batarians did the same thing to the relay near Feros. Humans would want blood, we wouldn't accept the Batarians responsible being tried by the Batarian military. That'd probably make matters worse.

Then again, that's not really the point is it? BW wants us on earth when the Reapers invade, which is cool and everything. I just wish they came up with a better plot device for it.

I think the trial has been always pre-planned in the trilogy's script. As well as the Reapers hitting Earth as their primary target.

Somewhere down the line, probably after ME1, but too late for it to be put in ME2, BioWare "listened to the fans" who wanted to "visit Earth at some point". Then they decided it would be "cool" for Shepard to be present on Earth in person as the Reapers invade. Then they overheard some people complaining about the trial that their goody-goody Parashepards can't be held accountable for anything. Then there came the intro-comics as the means of rehashing the "story so far".

So, short of ditching the idea of the trial altogether, BioWare married it to the idea of having Shepard witness the Reaper invasion of Earth, and instead of a proper explanation just foreshadowed it by the mega-plothole we know as the "Arrival" DLC. And here we are with this contrived mess and have to deal with it.

[-Skorpious-]

A weal explanation would be that Hackett pulled some strings to get the trial to take place on Earth on purpose. Why? Seeing humanity's "hero" in person may elicit a more sympathetic response from the jury, judge, or whoever happens to preside over Shepard's case.

[Capeo]

xzxzxz701 wrote...
Actually no, I'm pretty sure she says it would take the Reapers months or maybe even years to reach the next relay. The higher ups DO have at least some knowledge of the Reapers, but that does not mean that they are going to risk war with the Batarians. They still have a galaxy to run, after all.

So yes, it is perfectly logical for Shepard to stand trial.

Just checked the timeline.  You're right she says months or years at standard FTL speeds (which makes little sense unto itself as one would be easily be able to calculate how long it would take at FTL speeds) but it makes Arrival and Shep going on trial on Earth no less illogical.

The Alliance doesn't run the galaxy, the council does.  Earth is not the capital of the Alliance, Arcturus is.  Using Shepard as a scapegoat, when he is the one person you really need, is idiotic. 

[Mister Ford]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...

It's not a plothole that Shepard's trial is on earth.

It is. There is neither lore reason, nor story explanation for it.

You are absolutely certain there is no explanation for it in the story, even though you are months away from knowing the story?

I've got an easy solution that should put this all to rest ---- if it bothers people that much that they don't have an explantion for something in a game that has yet to be released, don't buy the game.  Otherwise, accept it, move on and enjoy the game when it comes out.

[aeetos21]

I don't normally say this Zulu but I actually fully agree with you on this one. Though let's face it, the only reason Shepard is on trial at all is to go over past events to help acclimate new players to the game and more "importantly" so that we the player can be present for the initial Reaper invasion. Also so that Shepard can yet again get a new/upgraded Normandy.

Plot wise would it make more sense not to have the trial on earth, hell yes. Then again, playing to my more baser desires, I would love to be there on the ground when the Reapers invade. So really? I just wish BW could've come up with a better plot device.

Then they overheard some people complaining about the trial that their
goody-goody Parashepards can't be held accountable for anything. Then
there came the intro-comics as the means of rehashing the "story so
far".

That always pissed me off. While I don't normally play as a renegade I am still worlds more realistic than some of the paladin type Shepards who believe in always taking the highroad and never suffering any consequences. I mean that's what the ME story is all about, making the hard choices and that's also what I liked best about Arrival - that Shepard (despite his/her personality) was finally forced to make the hard decision for the better of the galaxy.

Modifié par aeetos21, 13 avril 2011 - 01:17 .

[woods26]

Real life isn't always logical. I don't expect games to be.

[KingNothing125]

50 pages of this? Criminy. It's about time we got to see Earth, after going to the Citadel, Illium, Omega, Tuchanka, etc. Plus, ground floor of the invasion... epic. Way better than hearing about it on the TV while on some space station.

[Thalorin1919]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]Thalorin1919 wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]Thalorin1919 wrote...

It's not a plothole that Shepard's trial is on earth.
[/quote]
It is. There is neither lore reason, nor story explanation for it.


[quote]Thalorin1919 wrote...

The Batarians view the events of Arrival as purely Alliance doing. Having the humans themselves put Shepard on trial - on Earth,[/quote]
Why on Earth?


[quote]Thalorin1919 wrote...

shows that the Alliance wasn't part of this, and that they went to justify the situation as well.[/quote]
Trying Shepard for anything is assuming responsiblity for his actions. And it's just inviting the Batarains to ask for reparations.


[quote]Thalorin1919 wrote...

So basically, it's on Earth, to show more support to peace to avoid war with the Batarians, therefore putting Shepard on trial at the center of humanity.[/quote] How is having the trial on Earth more supportive of peace, than having the trial on the Arcturus Station? Are they going to let a bunch of grass-smoking hippies into the court-room?


[quote]Thalorin1919 wrote...

Also, half of you just seem to throw in the words 'plothole' or 'cliche' when you see something you don't like, though the term doesn't apply at all.

This forum ****es and moans more then anyother.[/quote]
So, there aren't any plot holes in ME3, because people don't know what a plot hole is. Perfect conjecture, thank you for the input, what about Shepard's spectre status?[/quote]
You kind of contradicted my points by just rephrasing them into the same questions I LITERALLY just answered. But hey, great job.
[/quote]
That's because you answered no questions, but just stated that Earth somehow magically fits into all this.


[quote]Thalorin1919 wrote...

I don't think the Council gives two hoots that he was a Spectre. Even if they did reinstate you in ME2 - it wasn't official, and nobody knew about it.[/quote]
Wrong, you can pull your spectre status to get the blacklisted Asari off the Citadel. You can't do that, if you haven't been reinstated, so it's quite official.


[quote]Thalorin1919 wrote...

Shepard can go around saying he is all he wants, but the Council doesn't have to back him up in public - especially after it happened in Arrival.
[/quote]
Who says something about backing? How about the Council accepting the responsibility for a Spectre's actions? Since the Alliance wants to shift the blame? Sure, it might not work, so the Council tosses the problem back to the Alliance, but it needs to be addressed in the narrative, or it's a plot hole, as in "gap in the plot", "a breach", "a flaw".


[quote]Thalorin1919 wrote...

Arcturus Station is a military station, a critical one. I don't see why they would hold a trial on that place, when Earth is the center of human government. Derp?
[/quote]
The Arcturus Station is the center of Human government, derp. Since its happens to be not only a military station, but also a "parliamentary" station. As in "hosts the Systems Alliance Parliament", since its formation in 2160, and it's a f*cking Capital of the Systems Alliance.


[quote]Thalorin1919 wrote...

And on that note, if you were the Batarians, wouldn't you feel more respected if they held Shepard's trial at Earth, rather then some station? I know I would, and it makes sense.
[/quote]
It's not some station. It's the most powerful Human space station where the most powerful Humans decide the fates of other Humans. And as a Batarian, a member of a cast system society, I'd definitely more respect that, than some planet that would be a juicy target for my slave grab expeditions, if not for that pesky space station.


[quote]Thalorin1919 wrote...

Maybe the writers hope that the fans can apply some basic sense, rather then nitpicking at it, because they didn't get what they want - like you, who apparently has an erection for Arcturus Station.
[/quote]
It's actually the fans (not all of them, but some) that hope that the writers can apply some basic sense, rather than punching holes in the plot and retconning the lore everytime something "cool" strikes their minds.

[/quote]

Space station =/= Earth.

I really don't know how to get it through your head. Arcturus is merely a station, WHILE EARTH IS TEH CENTER WHERE TEH HUMANZ R FROM!!11

I mean, really? Think of a real-life example. Do you think that they would hold a trial for some war-hero in the middle-east in some Fort out somewhere that not everyone knows about, rather then the supreme court? What makes you even think - for one damn second - that high-ranking officials would go out to a vulnerable station compared to the more safe Earth? Derp?

And the Council doesn't have to back anyone.

Also - you didn't write the mass effect universe. I think that's a problem. You think that the station and blarg blarg blarg does all these things, but the truth is - You. Don't. Know.

[Capeo]

aeetos21 wrote...

I don't normally say this Zulu but I actually fully agree with you on this one. Though let's face it, the only reason Shepard is on trial at all is to go over past events to help acclimate new players to the game and more "importantly" so that we the player can be present for the initial Reaper invasion. Also so that Shepard can yet again get a new/upgraded Normandy.

Plot wise would it make more sense not to have the trial on earth, hell yes. Then again, playing to my more baser desires, I would love to be there on the ground when the Reapers invade. So really? I just wish BW could've come up with a better plot device.

I have no problem getting Shep to Earth.  BW's reasoning is everything you said: so the game can stand alone.  But there's a million better ways to achieve it.  Simply making Shep aware that the Reapers would hit Earth early in the invasion would be enough to get Shepard there.

[Thalorin1919]

Capeo wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Nobody knows when the Reapers are going to come. When they are putting Shepard on trial, it's not like they know the Reapers are arriving the next day, but are just ignoring it. All they've known is that they have been stopped - for now. And that time period is enough time for a war to spark between Batarians and Humans for what happened.

Sure, Shepard doesn't own any allegiance. But who's allegiance is he going to get if he doesn't even have the trust of his own people? Not much, I'm betting. He would have to attend that trial and fix things, whether he likes it or not. And Hackett knows that Shepard was involved, and thats how the Alliance knows.

Besides, this an opportunity to finally reveal the actuality of the Reapers. At a trial, while at the same time, quelling the heat between Humans and Batarians.

If you think that the idea of great heroes being put on trial is 'ludicrous', I'm sure there are alot of stories and parts of history that you don't like then. It's not a dumb idea. It's happened.

They now KNOW the Reapers could be weeks away from a relay that could drop them in our solar system.  The Alliance knows this now!  Why would Hackett betray Shepard now?  There's any number of people the Alliance could make a scapegoat.  From a political point of view Anderson would make more sense than Shepard. 

And a trial is suddenly going to convince the people of Earth that the Reapers are real?  No.  Sorry.  BW already stated that they're going to know they're real because they are going to attack DURING the trial.  That time and the time prior should be spent convincing the Council not Earth when the Alliance already clearly knows the reality of the Reapers yet is inexplicably ignoring it.

And this is Mass Effect, not Inherit the Wind. 

Actually the Alliance doesn't know "now" at all. No-matter how many exclamation points you throw next to it, they don't know. Kennison states months, years at best. Not weeks, definitely. Hackett isn't betraying Shepard - Hackett is doing his duty to the Alliance. Technically, Shepard was/with Cerberus, Shepard kills Batarians. Council doesn't have to back Shepard as a Spectre. Humans as a Council race will put Shepard on trial themselves.

You remember that little scene where Hackett gives back Shepard the datapad basically saying the Reapers are real, confirming the threat. Don't you think he would reveal that in the trial? Derp. And don't act like I don't know the Reapers are going to attack during the trial, christ.

When a Reaper threat is months or years away, there are more immediate things. Like a Human/Batarian war, in which nobody wants to happen. Hence why the Alliance holds the trial.

Why is this so difficult?

[Zulu_DFA]

-Skorpious- wrote...

A weal explanation would be that Hackett pulled some strings to get the trial to take place on Earth on purpose. Why? Seeing humanity's "hero" in person may elicit a more sympathetic response from the jury, judge, or whoever happens to preside over Shepard's case.

All the strings Hackett needed to pull to keep Shepard out ot this were the laces in the corners of his lips.

Based on his question about the Normandy though, and the GI's report that the Alliance will be poking around it, while Shepard is on that trial, and Cerberus' status of a pseudo-rogue Alliance black ops, gives me a thought that it's all more about the Normandy (and EDI), than Shepard. Cerberus developed and shaked down a new weaponized technology, so the time came for the Alliance to acquire it and replicate (so that in the Grand Finale Battle we might see some real effectiveness of the Alliance ships against the Reapers).

But again, that's only reinforcing the idea that the whole business must be conducted at the Arcturus Station - the main Alliance Naval HQ and dockyard. Shepard goes to Earth only by the Rule of Cool,and that's all there is to it, it's an intentional plot hole and we have to deal with it.

[Capeo]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Space station =/= Earth.

I really don't know how to get it through your head. Arcturus is merely a station, WHILE EARTH IS TEH CENTER WHERE TEH HUMANZ R FROM!!11

I mean, really? Think of a real-life example. Do you think that they would hold a trial for some war-hero in the middle-east in some Fort out somewhere that not everyone knows about, rather then the supreme court? What makes you even think - for one damn second - that high-ranking officials would go out to a vulnerable station compared to the more safe Earth? Derp?

And the Council doesn't have to back anyone.

Also - you didn't write the mass effect universe. I think that's a problem. You think that the station and blarg blarg blarg does all these things, but the truth is - You. Don't. Know.

Arcturus is the home of all human government.  It's not some fort out in the middle of nowhere.  It's the seat of the human parliment that GOVERNS Earth.  That is according to the Mass Effect universe.  There's nothing "vunerable" about Arcturus. 

Another note?  The Supreme Court doesn't try war heroes or criminals.  They don't try criminals period.  War criminals get tried at the Hague in view of all countries.  The equivilant of that would be the Council.

[Zulu_DFA]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

I really don't know how to get it through your head. Arcturus is merely a station, WHILE EARTH IS TEH CENTER WHERE TEH HUMANZ R FROM!!11

So what?

And Arcturus is "merely" a station where the most important institutions on the Systems Alliance are situated.

Thalorin1919 wrote...

I mean, really? Think of a real-life example. Do you think that they would hold a trial for some war-hero in the middle-east in some Fort out somewhere that not everyone knows about, rather then the supreme court?

In Washington, D.C. And the Arcturus Station is that Space Washington, D.C.

Thalorin1919 wrote...

What makes you even think - for one damn second - that high-ranking officials would go out to a vulnerable station compared to the more safe Earth? Derp?

The highest ranking officials already are on this "vulnerable" station which is the most secure place in the entire Human space.

Thalorin1919 wrote...

And the Council doesn't have to back anyone.

Right, the Council has to try its spectres, because nobody else can dare to.

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Also - you didn't write the mass effect universe. I think that's a problem. You think that the station and blarg blarg blarg does all these things, but the truth is - You. Don't. Know.

The truth is, I've actually read the damn in-game Codex, while you haven't. Now, here's your chance:

BioWare writers wrote...

=== Stations: Arcturus Station ===

Arcturus Station is the gateway to Sol, a 5-kilometer diameter space station at the trailing Lagrange
point of the gas giant Themis. Construction on Arcturus Station began in 2151 and concluded in 2162. It
was inaugurated in 2156, and has served as the military and political headquarters of the Systems
Alliance from the First Contact War until the present.
 
When humanity activated the Charon Mass Relay in 2149, it led to Arcturus, 36 light years from Sol,
Earth's sun. Arcturus is the third brightest star seen from Earth. It is an ancient red giant from the
generation born before Sol. Its worlds are either gas giants or ice chunks. While some rocky debris
exists, the metal content is 25% lower than normal. To build Arcturus Station, metallic asteroids were
towed through the mass relays to the construction site. Many of these asteroids remain near the
station, their mined out areas home to transient populations.
 
The expense of bringing construct materials into the system was acceptable due to its strategic value.
With three primary mass relays in addition to the secondary one to Sol, Arcturus is a major
communications and military chokepoint. The Alliance 1st Fleet is based in Arcturus, where it can guard
the gates to Sol and react to incursions in the three connected clusters. The Station also hosts the
Systems Alliance Parliament and the Systems Alliance Military general headquarters. Its permanent
population is approximately 45,000.
 
Arcturus is actually from the galactic halo, one of a cluster of 52 stars that are "crashing through" the
disc of the galaxy. In a billion years, Arcturus will be sailing through the depths of extragalactic dark
space.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 13 avril 2011 - 02:03 .

[Capeo]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Actually the Alliance doesn't know "now" at all. No-matter how many exclamation points you throw next to it, they don't know. Kennison states months, years at best. Not weeks, definitely. Hackett isn't betraying Shepard - Hackett is doing his duty to the Alliance. Technically, Shepard was/with Cerberus, Shepard kills Batarians. Council doesn't have to back Shepard as a Spectre. Humans as a Council race will put Shepard on trial themselves.

You remember that little scene where Hackett gives back Shepard the datapad basically saying the Reapers are real, confirming the threat. Don't you think he would reveal that in the trial? Derp. And don't act like I don't know the Reapers are going to attack during the trial, christ.

When a Reaper threat is months or years away, there are more immediate things. Like a Human/Batarian war, in which nobody wants to happen. Hence why the Alliance holds the trial.

Why is this so difficult?

Anderson knows.  Hacket knows.  Kasumi's black box contains Alliance info on Reapers.  Kenison was sent to a Reaper artifact.  Who the hell doesn't know?  And yes Hackett is betraying Shepard.  Shepard didn't have to have anything to do with this.  He was doing Hackett a favor.  One of many.  If Hackett would just shut up he wouldn't be dragging Shepard into this when Shepard has a whole lot better things to be doing considering the horrible way they wrote Arrival.  It's all a ridiculously contrived way to bring Shepard to Earth.

[Sajuro]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...

It's not a plothole that Shepard's trial is on earth.

It is. There is neither lore reason, nor story explanation for it.

Because they want to, to facilitate Shep's escape while giving the Batarians the spectacle of the trial so they go to war with the Reapers breathing down our necks. They can't just frame a random person because no ensign would have been able to carve a path through resistance and set up the explosion of the Relay.

Modifié par Sajuro, 13 avril 2011 - 02:03 .

[Moiaussi]

DTKT wrote...

Isn't it way more "iconic" to use Earth in any science-fiction universe?

Seems better than some random made up name.

Yes, it is a hackneyed scene that is misused over and over again by writers who think that readers/viewers/gamers are too stupid to associate with any other planet. Obviously they didn't read the old thread on saving or killing the Rachni Queen, one of the longest on the old ME1 boards. If viewers care about the life or death of a space bug to that degree, why wouldn't they care about any given inhabited world?

[Capeo]

Sajuro wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...

It's not a plothole that Shepard's trial is on earth.

It is. There is neither lore reason, nor story explanation for it.

Because they want to, to facilitate Shep's escape while giving the Batarians the spectacle of the trial so they go to war with the Reapers breathing down our necks. They can't just frame a random person because no ensign would have been able to carve a path through resistance and set up the explosion of the Relay.

Uh... if it wasn't for the indoctrination the relay would have blown up by a bunch of scientists.  There would have been no carving through anything.  It's the secret Alliance mission that blew up the relay.  Shepard just was forced (through horrible writing) to push the Big Red Button.

[Moiaussi]

KingNothing125 wrote...

50 pages of this? Criminy. It's about time we got to see Earth, after going to the Citadel, Illium, Omega, Tuchanka, etc. Plus, ground floor of the invasion... epic. Way better than hearing about it on the TV while on some space station.

There is nothing wrong with going to see Earth. The issue is the hackneyed, contrived reason to do so. And we are not really seeing Earth. The inside of a court room/prison complex is hardly 'seeing Earth'

[Zulu_DFA]

Sajuro wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...

It's not a plothole that Shepard's trial is on earth.

It is. There is neither lore reason, nor story explanation for it.

Because they want to, to facilitate Shep's escape while giving the Batarians the spectacle of the trial so they go to war with the Reapers breathing down our necks. They can't just frame a random person because no ensign would have been able to carve a path through resistance and set up the explosion of the Relay.

This "give the Batarians the spectacle", only invites them to ask for more: reparations. But as long as the Alliance denies any involvement (as in "puts nobody on trial") the Batarians have no case to present to justify their going to war.

And what Capeo wrote. Who were they planning to use for patsy, if Shepard's services weren't required?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 13 avril 2011 - 02:45 .

[Stukovkh]

Yayyy, Shepard's going to Earth for the trial WOOO!!! Party in Houston!!! Who's bringing the ryncol?!!

[DTKT]

Moiaussi wrote...

DTKT wrote...

Isn't it way more "iconic" to use Earth in any science-fiction universe?

Seems better than some random made up name.

Yes, it is a hackneyed scene that is misused over and over again by writers who think that readers/viewers/gamers are too stupid to associate with any other planet. Obviously they didn't read the old thread on saving or killing the Rachni Queen, one of the longest on the old ME1 boards. If viewers care about the life or death of a space bug to that degree, why wouldn't they care about any given inhabited world?

You cant set the beginning of ME3 on the back of a giant Rachni.

Well maybe but you get my point.

Presenting a race and an entire planet are two very different thing. In ME1, part of the Noveria mission was dedicated to the Rachni and how they were introduced. Going back to Earth just makes sense to me.

[Moiaussi]

DTKT wrote...

You cant set the beginning of ME3 on the back of a giant Rachni.

Well maybe but you get my point.

Presenting a race and an entire planet are two very different thing. In ME1, part of the Noveria mission was dedicated to the Rachni and how they were introduced. Going back to Earth just makes sense to me.

You completely missed my point. Defending a world other than Earth wouldn't have hurt the game any more than deciding whether the Rachni live or die hurt ME1, as opposed to deciding whether a human or even the Asari race or some other 'pretty' race lives or dies.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 13 avril 2011 - 02:57 .

[DxWill10]

-Skorpious- wrote...

A weal explanation would be...

Shh!  Be vewy quiet.  I'm hunting wabbits!

[Capeo]

DxWill10 wrote...

-Skorpious- wrote...

A weal explanation would be...

Shh!  Be vewy quiet.  I'm hunting wabbits!

[Therefore_I_Am]

Problem, Zulu? *troll face*