1529 réponses à ce sujet

[MDT1]

I don't know much about it, but where is it stated that the Alliance "supreme court" isn't stationed on Earth.
If it's on Earth it makes totally sense that the trial takes place there.

[Moiaussi]

Arcian wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

When does Anderson tell you it is title only and how in blazes can it be title only? He was never officially stripped of the title. He wasn't even ever officially dead.

http://www.youtube.c...GWV7Fuw#t=3m39s

EDIT: botched link timestamp

He says the offer was symbolic, not the station. How can Shepard be only an honourary spectre? What would that mean to anyone outside of the Council? The line Anderson uses next says that the Council won't help Shepard against the Collectors, that isn't the same thing as Shepard no longer 'really' being a spectre. Remember, he was never officially stripped of the position.

He also tells Udina he is a spectre again without any qualifier and Anderson doesn't correct him.

[Moiaussi]

MDT1 wrote...

I don't know much about it, but where is it stated that the Alliance "supreme court" isn't stationed on Earth.
If it's on Earth it makes totally sense that the trial takes place there.

Again, the codex states that the Alliance government is at Arcturus. There is presumably 'a' court at Earth, but the main one would be at Arcturus.

And again, he ceased being an Alliance anything the momment he was appointed a Spectre. What is this, Shepard the ressurrected being sent to Herod for trial? Are the Reapers going to be defeated by a horde of archangels then?

[MDT1]

Moiaussi wrote...

MDT1 wrote...

I don't know much about it, but where is it stated that the Alliance "supreme court" isn't stationed on Earth.
If it's on Earth it makes totally sense that the trial takes place there.

Again, the codex states that the Alliance government is at Arcturus. There is presumably 'a' court at Earth, but the main one would be at Arcturus.

Why?  There are countries on Earth where the "main one" isn't in the capital. And especially when national states give power to new found organizations they tend to spread those things and don't concetrate it in one city/country.

Also if they still practice separation of powers government =/= court.

Also Spectre or not, I guess Shepard goes to trial because she takes responsibility and want's to set things right.
She accepts an "invitation" and isn't dragged there by force.

Modifié par MDT1, 13 avril 2011 - 09:50 .

[piemanz]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Empiro wrote...

Gah, I can't believe this has gone on for 50+ pages either. My take: just as there are Federal Courts outside of Washington DC, there's Alliance courts outside of Arcturus. And you'd think it would make sense to have at least one on Earth, where more humans live than anywhere else, combined (times 100).

I see no plotholes at all. If you'd prefer it to be held somewhere else, you're certainly entitled to that opinion.

1. As a spectre, Shepard is not in the Alliance's jurisdiction.
2. As a naval officer, he is not in the Alliance's civil judicial system jurisdiction.
3. His case is supposed to be too high profile to be taken to just any "federal court".
4. Why of all the "any federal courts" one was chosen of all places on Earth?

As soon as these four points are out of the way, I won't see a plothole too. Unfortunatelly, in the Arrival DLC Hackett failed to address any of them before he professed the future.

I can't beleive this thread is still going lol.

1.Sheps relationship with the council is rocky at best, i'm sure they wouldn't think twice about stripping him/her of their spectre status. I'll leave it to Udina to explain the rest.

2.We're not taking about a normal naval officer here, we're talking about probably Humanitys biggest hero.

3."Just any Federal court"??....It's Earth! THE most important place to humanity (unless your names ZuluDFA, then Earth is just full of spongers).

4.See 3.

Modifié par piemanz, 13 avril 2011 - 09:50 .

[Centauri2002]

Just noting an above point... in some cases, crimes involving Naval personnel can be investigated by civilian police alongside military police, so that assumption is wrong. Of course, this is set in the future, so any number of changes could be made. And, lastly, this is mass murder we're talking about - I doubt anyone's concerned with protocol.

[sponge56]

Moiaussi wrote...

MDT1 wrote...

I don't know much about it, but where is it stated that the Alliance "supreme court" isn't stationed on Earth.
If it's on Earth it makes totally sense that the trial takes place there.

Again, the codex states that the Alliance government is at Arcturus. There is presumably 'a' court at Earth, but the main one would be at Arcturus.

And again, he ceased being an Alliance anything the momment he was appointed a Spectre. What is this, Shepard the ressurrected being sent to Herod for trial? Are the Reapers going to be defeated by a horde of archangels then?

Again, no it doesn't have to be Arcturus.  It could be of course, but it could also not be.  For example, the UK goverment meets and takes place in the Houses of Parliament but there are no court's there.  Also its a space station, there might not be room for court rooms.  of course there may be, but as its never stated where court rooms are it is neither a plot hole or a retcon.  Were simply assuming where things are held.  It is entirely logical that there are alliance cours on earth, just as it is logical to asusme they are on arcturus

[Centauri2002]

This Spectre argument is pointless. In some game saves you can be reinstated, in some you're not. The trial at Earth is for every Shepard. My Renegade FemShep was never reinstated as a Spectre, she's a free agent. She's attending the trial, begrudgingly, as a human. That is all.

[Asheer_Khan]

Council won't support Shepard even as Spectre until s/he won't prove that her/his cooperation with failberus is over.

Too many people apparently still deny fact what kind of "relationship" exist between failberus and Council.

But there is no full fledged Spectre and "paper" made Spectre.

Spectre status is one and solid, and yes not even so huge enemy of the whole Spectre system as Udina says anything that Shepard's reinstated status is nothing more than Council "fan service".

Later on Vasir confirms that Shepard IS fully active Spectre within branch so this whole 'but this is only a title to made pro Council fans happy" is seriously as same logic as almost unconditional trust that only failberus can stop Reapers showed so many times on this board...

[ardll]

I love Earth. Earth is my home.

[Moiaussi]

MDT1 wrote...

Why?  There are countries on Earth where the "main one" isn't in the capital. And especially when national states give power to new found organizations they tend to spread those things and don't concetrate it in one city/country.

Also if they still practice separation of powers government =/= court.

Also Spectre or not, I guess Shepard goes to trial because she takes responsibility and want's to set things right.
She accepts an "invitation" and isn't dragged there by force.

It would be the military court, though, not the civilian court. How would any Earth civilian court have any jurisdiction regarding allged crimes committed on or agaisnt Batarians in Batarian space?

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]Asheer_Khan wrote...

Council won't support Shepard even as Spectre until s/he won't prove that her/his cooperation with failberus is over.
[/quote]
The Council doesn't have to back Shepard up. The Council has to run the investigation and prosecution of Shepard, and the Alliance can't dare touching him, unless the Alliance wants to deliberatley screw with the Council. if Shepard is a spectre.[/quote]

[Zulu_DFA]

piemanz wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Empiro wrote...

Gah, I can't believe this has gone on for 50+ pages either. My take: just as there are Federal Courts outside of Washington DC, there's Alliance courts outside of Arcturus. And you'd think it would make sense to have at least one on Earth, where more humans live than anywhere else, combined (times 100).

I see no plotholes at all. If you'd prefer it to be held somewhere else, you're certainly entitled to that opinion.

1. As a spectre, Shepard is not in the Alliance's jurisdiction.
2. As a naval officer, he is not in the Alliance's civil judicial system jurisdiction.
3. His case is supposed to be too high profile to be taken to just any "federal court".
4. Why of all the "any federal courts" one was chosen of all places on Earth?

As soon as these four points are out of the way, I won't see a plothole too. Unfortunatelly, in the Arrival DLC Hackett failed to address any of them before he professed the future.

I can't beleive this thread is still going lol.

1.Sheps relationship with the council is rocky at best, i'm sure they wouldn't think twice about stripping him/her of their spectre status. I'll leave it to Udina to explain the rest.

2.We're not taking about a normal naval officer here, we're talking about probably Humanitys biggest hero.

3."Just any Federal court"??....It's Earth! THE most important place to humanity (unless your names ZuluDFA, then Earth is just full of spongers).

4.See 3.

Dude, the answer #4 actually says you haven't answered question #3, as they are different. Not that answers ## 1 and 2 really address the problem as opposed to handwaving it BioWare-writer-style.

[Moiaussi]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Council won't support Shepard even as Spectre until s/he won't prove that her/his cooperation with failberus is over.

Too many people apparently still deny fact what kind of "relationship" exist between failberus and Council.

But there is no full fledged Spectre and "paper" made Spectre.

Spectre status is one and solid, and yes not even so huge enemy of the whole Spectre system as Udina says anything that Shepard's reinstated status is nothing more than Council "fan service".

Later on Vasir confirms that Shepard IS fully active Spectre within branch so this whole 'but this is only a title to made pro Council fans happy" is seriously as same logic as almost unconditional trust that only failberus can stop Reapers showed so many times on this board...

I am not talking about supporting him though. They would have first claim to him (and the stronger claim) regarding any alleged crimes. Cerberus is their enemy more than the Alliance, since the Alliance is predominently human and Cerberus is pro human at the expense of other races.

They could claim jurisdiction if Shepard is still a Spectre on the grounds that he was operating as a Spectre, regardless of where.

Shepard is no longer a member of the Alliance, though as of him becoming a Spectre. In ME1, Hackett acknowledges that when asking Shep to do side missions. The alleged crimes were in Batarian space, so the Alliance would have no civil authority, they were not done while in service to the Alliance military.

About the only way it would make sense is if it was a Batarian trial taking place on Earth soil, and even then Shepard (via his or her lawyers) would have to agree to the chance of venue.

If this is so believable to people, why was Saren tried before the Council rather than at the Turian homeworld?

[Zulu_DFA]

ardll wrote...

I love Earth. Earth is my home.

I love Earth too, but it doesn't cloud my judgement. The same can be said about my Earthborn Shepard.

[SalsaDMA]

Empiro wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

1. As a spectre, Shepard is not in the Alliance's jurisdiction.

As others said, that can be easily revoked.

But it wasn't.

And Hackett just stated that Shepard would be put on trial without even acknowledging that the Alliance would need to go on all four and ask the council first if they could be allowed to trial Shepard.

In fact, he was totally dismissive and ignoring any of the multitudes of points that clearly contradicts his authority to make the statement or even if there is a need at all to make such a statement.

The writers. simply. didn't. care. enough. about the lore or plot. All they cared about was getting the product out of the door to meet their deadline.

It makes you wonder, though, given the production time available comapred to Shadowbroker, what the hell went wrong in the creative department for Bioware when they in the same year, in less time, can make shadowbroker which is oodles of quality better than the extended cutscene they called Arrival.

[Moiaussi]

Btw, if Shepard is still considered a member of the Alliance military and is found innocent, he is owed rather a lot of back pay. That might even be useable in his defence, in suggesting the crown might have additional motives for convicting him.

[nelly21]

Zulu, one problem with your "argument".

Shepard isn't Alliance. He's been working with Cerberus (a private entity and designated terrorist group). Shepard's relationship with the Alliance was over when he died. Even the events in Arrival were done without Alliance authorization. At this point, he's a human terrorist according to his detractors.

If a former marine were to commit a crime, would he be tried in a military court? No. Your entire argument is based on a false assumption: That Shepard is still Alliance. He isn't.

[SalsaDMA]

Arcian wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Empiro wrote...

As others said, that can be easily revoked.

You are suggesting that the Council would revoke Shepard's status....again.... with no trial. and hand him over to the Alliance for a public trial there?

Basicly that the Council would undermine the whole concept of Spectres and the Council's authority and jurisdiction in that manner?

Saren attacked a colony and had his Spectre status revoked. He didn't even kill everyone there, yet he still had his status revoked when presented with shaky evidence that could easily have been forged. What odds does that leave Shepard?

There is enough evidence to implicate Shepard's responsibility, or at the very least his involvement in the destruction of Bahak. The Council revokes his Spectre status, and he's no longer under their jurisdiction. That only leaves him as an Alliance operative responsible for mass murder on the Alliance's behalf against the Alliance's only rival which I might  is no longer part of the Citadel. QED, the Council can just sit back and watch the Alliance trying to solve the problem that it's got itself into.

You see, the Council is clever. If they can deny Spectre involvement, they will do so - but if there is even the slightest evidence of an outright attack against a national entity, they cut them off to protect themselves. It happened to Saren, and it will happen to Shepard.

Saren was revoked because of evidence of him working with the Geth.

The Geth are the 'boogeymen' of the ME universe for the average citizen. Working with them while showing clear tendencies to attack colonies means he is no longer in any way, from a council members viewpoint, working in the best interest of the council to maintain galactic stability.

It wasn't so much about Eden Orime, as it was his connection to the Geth while attacking a random colony.

[Moiaussi]

How is that against Zulu's arguement? What Earth court would have jurisdiction?

Edit : question is to Nelly

Modifié par Moiaussi, 13 avril 2011 - 04:10 .

[Moiaussi]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Saren was revoked because of evidence of him working with the Geth.

The Geth are the 'boogeymen' of the ME universe for the average citizen. Working with them while showing clear tendencies to attack colonies means he is no longer in any way, from a council members viewpoint, working in the best interest of the council to maintain galactic stability.

It wasn't so much about Eden Orime, as it was his connection to the Geth while attacking a random colony.

He also lied to the Council about his involvement in the attack. Lieing to them about an op is arguably treason in and of itself, especially given the leaway that Spectres are given with respect to the law.

[MDT1]

Moiaussi wrote...

MDT1 wrote...

Why?  There are countries on Earth where the "main one" isn't in the capital. And especially when national states give power to new found organizations they tend to spread those things and don't concetrate it in one city/country.

Also if they still practice separation of powers government =/= court.

Also Spectre or not, I guess Shepard goes to trial because she takes responsibility and want's to set things right.
She accepts an "invitation" and isn't dragged there by force.

It would be the military court, though, not the civilian court. How would any Earth civilian court have any jurisdiction regarding allged crimes committed on or agaisnt Batarians in Batarian space?

1) I just don't get why you assume from my post it would be a civil court. (though Earth's only court that would assume such a role today is one)
2) I know of no country where all military jurisdiction is based in the military headquarters. (How many processes are held in the pentagon each day?)

Your whole argument seems to be a mixture of "I don't like it" and "I don't get it" while I deliver evidence from human history why Earth makes sense. In addition nobody said Arcturus station doesn't make sense, my point is there are also no reasons why Earth doesn't make sense.

Modifié par MDT1, 13 avril 2011 - 04:17 .

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]Jigero wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
1. As a spectre, Shepard is not in the Alliance's jurisdiction.[/quote]

First of all he's not a spectre anymore, he can get reinstated but Anderson tells you it's title only.
[/quote]And it's all it takes to be a spectre - the title.


[quote]Jigero wrote...

On top of that, the Council basically told Shepard stay out of our way and don't ****** us off, then he goes out on a mission working for an organization who is a direct threat to the council, under orders from the Human alliance (note this because this was not a council mission or in favor of the council) and kills 300 thousand plus Batarians to stop a threat the Council doesn't even perceive is real. Inciting a war the Council would refused to get involved in.

How is the Council willing to protect Shepard in any of this?
[/quote]
I'm not saying anything about "protecting". I'm saying about prosecuting. It's the Council who has to try Shepard first, befor the Alliance can have any go (unless it's kept secret from the public and Council) with Shepard - if Shepard is a spectre.


[quote]Jigero wrote...

The council turned on Saren for less and he was a Veterian and trusted Spectre. I highly doubt the Council wouldn't offer up Shepard's head on a platter to the Batarians if it ment stoping the war. [/quote]
After a trial, or inquiry. On the Citadel.


[quote]Jigero wrote...
[quote]2. As a naval officer, he is not in the Alliance's civil judicial system jurisdiction.[/quote]Who said anything about Civil? the Leaders of the Alliance are probably on earth, or Earth is the meeting point. Is it so hard to swallow that you know humans might be on Earth in the future?[/quote]
The leaders of the Alliance are all on the Arcturus Station. It is their meeting point. Since it hosts the Alliance Parliament and all... Is it so hard to swallow that Earth might not be the hub of the universe in the future?


[quote]Jigero wrote...
[quote]3. His case is supposed to be too high profile to be taken to just any "federal court".[/quote]a trial is a trial, what does it matter?
[/quote]
It matters, because you don't try such a guy as Shepard in some provincial court.


[quote]Jigero wrote...
[quote]4. Why of all the "any federal courts" one was chosen of all places on Earth?[/quote]Why not? Earth is where Humans are from and the alliance is centered. Where else would they have it?
[/quote]
The Alliance is centered in the Arcturus Station. And if it's all about a spectacle for the Batarians, it could as well be held in the "human capital of Elysium".


[quote]Jigero wrote...
[quote]As soon as these four points are out of the way, I won't see a plothole too. Unfortunatelly, in the Arrival DLC Hackett failed to address any of them before he professed the future.[/quote]Heres a novel idea why don't you wait until ME3 is out which will probably expalin all this before you go around throwing the word "Plot hole" like it's your new favorite word.
[/quote]
Because the plothole is already here, in the "Arrival" DLC, it's done, finished and played by many, so ME3 can't patch it even if it comes with a 3-hour-long explanation why the trial is taking place on Earth. Hackett couldn't know it in advance, but he magically did.