1529 réponses à ce sujet

[SalsaDMA]

Moiaussi wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Saren was revoked because of evidence of him working with the Geth.

The Geth are the 'boogeymen' of the ME universe for the average citizen. Working with them while showing clear tendencies to attack colonies means he is no longer in any way, from a council members viewpoint, working in the best interest of the council to maintain galactic stability.

It wasn't so much about Eden Orime, as it was his connection to the Geth while attacking a random colony.

He also lied to the Council about his involvement in the attack. Lieing to them about an op is arguably treason in and of itself, especially given the leaway that Spectres are given with respect to the law.

True. I forgot that.

[Zulu_DFA]

nelly21 wrote...

Zulu, one problem with your "argument".

Shepard isn't Alliance. He's been working with Cerberus (a private entity and designated terrorist group). Shepard's relationship with the Alliance was over when he died. Even the events in Arrival were done without Alliance authorization. At this point, he's a human terrorist according to his detractors.

If a former marine were to commit a crime, would he be tried in a military court? No. Your entire argument is based on a false assumption: That Shepard is still Alliance. He isn't.

1. Even if Shepard wasn't Alliance, he wouldn't be an earthworm either. Shepard's being a Alliance serviceman is in no way important to my argument. Either way, he is a big enough fish to be tried where the big fish assemble: the Citadel, or the Arcturus Station.

2. Shepard is an Alliance Marine. Because, big surprize: he didn't die. That should be the long and short of it. But I'll extend: Hackett has given you multiple proofs that Shepard is considered an Alliance serviceman, the latest being his request to wear the "dress blues" to the trial.

Even as a spectre, Shepard never stopped being an Alliance Marine, he was just assigned to a foreign unit. But the Alliance can't recall him without the Council's consent.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 13 avril 2011 - 04:32 .

[nelly21]

Moiaussi wrote...

What Earth court would have jurisdiction?

Edit : question is to Nelly

We don't know yet. What we do know is that Shepard isn't Alliance personnel anymore and that after Arrival, his Spectre status will likely be revoked.

We can assume that Shepard is being placed on trial in an effort to appease the Batarians. Humanity is trying to make it as public as possible. Even if Shepard were within Alliance jurisdiction (which he isn't) they would probably make an effort to assure the trial was as public and symbolic as possible. As important as Arcturus Station is, Earth symbolizes humanity.

[MDT1]

Zulu_DFA wrote...



Even as a spectre, Shepard never stopped being an Alliance Marine, he was just assigned to a foreign unit. But the Alliance can't recall him without the Council's consent.

Why would the Alliance need Council's consent if Shepard goes to trial out of reason?
Shepard needs to bring the governments in line you can't do that by hiding and being accused without defense.
(The paragon dialog option with Hackett even explicitly states that)

Also the Alliance is more like the UN than a central government like in Washington. It represents the earthern countries towards the galactic community. Back on Earth each country is still sovereign and the national leaders would normaly stay there.
Also in all modern democratic structures the government isn't part of the jurisdiction (separation of powers) so why would the presence of the parliament indicate the presence of a court?

Modifié par MDT1, 13 avril 2011 - 04:39 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

1. Even if Shepard wasn't Alliance, he wouldn't be an earthworm either. Shepard's being a Alliance serviceman is in no way important to my argument. Either way, he is a big enough fish to be tried where the big fish assemble: the Citadel, or the Arcturus Station.

Assuming these are the only two places where the big fish assemble, of course.

[Moiaussi]

[quote]MDT1 wrote...

It would be the military court, though, not the civilian court. How would any Earth civilian court have any jurisdiction regarding allged crimes committed on or agaisnt Batarians in Batarian space?[/quote]

1) I just don't get why you assume from my post it would be a civil court. (though Earth's only court that would assume such a role today is one)
2) I know of no country where all military jurisdiction is based in the military headquarters. (How many processes are held in the pentagon each day?)

Your whole argument seems to be a mixture of "I don't like it" and "I don't get it" while I deliver evidence from human history why Earth makes sense. In addition nobody said Arcturus station doesn't make sense, my point is there are also no reasons why Earth doesn't make sense.[/quote]

If it is a military court though, you have to explain how they would have jurisdiction over someone who hasn't been in their service for well over two years and wasn't in their service when the alleged crimes allegedly occurred.

Civilian courts would have even less jurisdiction.

As for location, someone of Shepard's status and reputation would much more likely be tried somewhere relatively remote and secure. Paragon might be tried on Earth, but a renegade Shepard would much more likely be tried in the ME equivalent of Guantanamo,not just to secure Shepard from any of escape attempt on his part but from any outside efforts to save or kill him.

[Zulu_DFA]

nelly21 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

What Earth court would have jurisdiction?

Edit : question is to Nelly

We don't know yet. What we do know is that Shepard isn't Alliance personnel anymore and that after Arrival, his Spectre status will likely be revoked.

He is an Alliance personnel, and to revoke his spectre status the Council would need to have a trial of Shepard, or would need to be explained that they have revoked his spectre status before Hackett could assertively speak about a trial by the Aliance.

nelly21 wrote...

We can assume that Shepard is being placed on trial in an effort to appease the Batarians. Humanity is trying to make it as public as possible.

Humanity. You mean the Systems Alliance. The one based on the Arcturus Station. Right?

nelly21 wrote...

Even if Shepard were within Alliance jurisdiction (which he isn't)

Which he is. Or why would he even listen to Hacketts rubbish about "facing the music"?

nelly21 wrote...

they would probably make an effort to assure the trial was as public and symbolic as possible. As important as Arcturus Station is, Earth symbolizes humanity.

Not for the Batarians, who clashed with the Humans in the Skylllian Verge, the Human capital of which is Elysium, and got their arse kicked by the Alliance, which is based on the Arcturus Station. Earth is just the place where the Human lower castes live in big numbers awaiting to be enslaved.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 13 avril 2011 - 04:42 .

[Moiaussi]

nelly21 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

What Earth court would have jurisdiction?

Edit : question is to Nelly

We don't know yet. What we do know is that Shepard isn't Alliance personnel anymore and that after Arrival, his Spectre status will likely be revoked.

We can assume that Shepard is being placed on trial in an effort to appease the Batarians. Humanity is trying to make it as public as possible. Even if Shepard were within Alliance jurisdiction (which he isn't) they would probably make an effort to assure the trial was as public and symbolic as possible. As important as Arcturus Station is, Earth symbolizes humanity.

Again, it wasn't revoked for Saren until after a trial. Why would it be different for Shepard? Based on your theory, why would they bother with a trial on Earth rather than simply shooting him, possibly even shooting him in his sleep or otherwise just making him disappear?

[MDT1]

Shepard beeing renegade wouldn't eliminate the neccessity to bring the government with their fleets behind her, so she would still go to trial willingly. So why should anyone expect her to try to escape?
Also regarding mass relay travel earth is a remote system, you would have to pass arcturus station to get to Earth.

Modifié par MDT1, 13 avril 2011 - 04:44 .

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Which he is. Or why would he even listen to Hacketts rubbish about "facing the music"?

Because the Alliance is part of the Council now, so there would likely be the Council to answer to, remembering that Shepard's officially never ceased to be a Spectre.

Otherwise it is a major retcon, since in ME1 Hackett makes it clear that he understands that Shepard is an agent of the Council now, not the Alliance, and that he (Hackett) hopes that old loyalties will hold and that Shepard will help on those side missions anyway.

[Moiaussi]

MDT1 wrote...

Shepard beeing renegade wouldn't eliminate the neccessity to bring the government with their fleets behind her, so she would still go to trial willingly. So why should anyone expect her to try to escape?
Also regarding mass relay travel earth is a remote system, you would have to pass arcturus station to get to Earth.

General proceedure. There are people in RL prisons who wouldn't try to escape until their day in court. Not everyone is granted bail. It depends on who it is and what the crime is.

I take it that your law abiding renegade ( a contradiction in terms!) somehow managed to defeat Saren in ME1 without stealing the Normandy? Can you tell us how that was accomplished? After that, why wouldn't they assume an escape attempt? Shepard also escaped after being taken into custody on the prison ship on Jack's recruitment mission. The fact that said custody was likely unlawful is beside the point. If you strike a police officer, you are the one charged first. Legally, you have to accept custody, then prove it unlawful.

[Zulu_DFA]

MDT1 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Even as a spectre, Shepard never stopped being an Alliance Marine, he was just assigned to a foreign unit. But the Alliance can't recall him without the Council's consent.

Why would the Alliance need Council's consent if Shepard goes to trial out of reason?

Because the Alliance couldn't start this trial without the risk of infuriating the Council, because as long as Shepard is formally one of their agents, it is their and only their right to spank him.

MDT1 wrote...

Also the Alliance is more like the UN than a central government like in Washington.

The Alliance is more like NATO, that ceased to answer to the civil goverments of its memberstates and established its own, effectively dictating terms to its former constituents.

MDT1 wrote...

It represents the earthern countries towards the galactic community. Back on Earth each country is still sovereign and the national leaders would normaly stay there.

The Alliance is independent of Earth, and it is even unclear if Earth's governments/nations send any official representtives to the Alliance parliament. It represents their interest though, because the Citadel Council deals only with the Alliance and no other Human political body.

MDT1 wrote...

Also in all modern democratic structures the government isn't part of the jurisdiction (separation of powers) so why would the presence of the parliament indicate the presence of a court?

And who says anything about the Alliance being "modern democratic"? As opposed to "futuristic militarized"?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 13 avril 2011 - 04:59 .

[Vanaer]

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

[quote]MDT1 wrote...

It would be the military court, though, not the civilian court. How would any Earth civilian court have any jurisdiction regarding allged crimes committed on or agaisnt Batarians in Batarian space?[/quote]

1) I just don't get why you assume from my post it would be a civil court. (though Earth's only court that would assume such a role today is one)
2) I know of no country where all military jurisdiction is based in the military headquarters. (How many processes are held in the pentagon each day?)

Your whole argument seems to be a mixture of "I don't like it" and "I don't get it" while I deliver evidence from human history why Earth makes sense. In addition nobody said Arcturus station doesn't make sense, my point is there are also no reasons why Earth doesn't make sense.[/quote]
[/quote]

Usually, at least in my country, military courts get organized in the 'normal' courts, but with military judges and procedures and so forth - making use of the regular court clerks and support. 

How would this go with an international/intergalactic military coordination thing like the Systems Alliance? It's obvious the Systems Alliance will be the ones judging Shepard; as Hackett kind of let's slip through the Alliance will be taken as responsable for this 'crime'. You're status is ambigious, as  you were 'dead', 'revived' by a terrorist group and on top of that you work with that terrorist group (from an Alliance point of view). That didn't matter though, since you were a Spectre (deceased/reinstated) and they let you do your thing in the Terminus systems.

Whoever is responsable for judging you, it's the Alliance that will judge you (regardless though, from a judiciary stance the Alliance courts aren't admissiable - don't know the exact translation into English, soz - for this particular case, so it'll be a short trial). That'll mean it'll be a Show Trial anyhow: albeit storywise organising the trial on Earth is 'weak', I don't really see it as a plothole. I doubt there's a systemized courtsystem for Alliance Spectres.

Modifié par Vanaer, 13 avril 2011 - 05:03 .

[MDT1]

Moiaussi wrote...

MDT1 wrote...

Shepard beeing renegade wouldn't eliminate the neccessity to bring the government with their fleets behind her, so she would still go to trial willingly. So why should anyone expect her to try to escape?
Also regarding mass relay travel earth is a remote system, you would have to pass arcturus station to get to Earth.

General proceedure. There are people in RL prisons who wouldn't try to escape until their day in court. Not everyone is granted bail. It depends on who it is and what the crime is.

I take it that your law abiding renegade ( a contradiction in terms!) somehow managed to defeat Saren in ME1 without stealing the Normandy? Can you tell us how that was accomplished? After that, why wouldn't they assume an escape attempt? Shepard also escaped after being taken into custody on the prison ship on Jack's recruitment mission. The fact that said custody was likely unlawful is beside the point. If you strike a police officer, you are the one charged first. Legally, you have to accept custody, then prove it unlawful.

Beeing Renegade doesn't remove common sense.
Shepard renegade wants to safe humanity by all means, but she still wants to safe it.
And after Arrival she knows Earth would be one of the first targets so she needs to get there and motivate people to move their asses.
Also regarding mass relay travel Earth is even safer than Arcturus station and what can happen if Shepard tries to escape a space station can be seen on the purgatory.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

Shepard also escaped after being taken into custody on the prison ship on Jack's recruitment mission. The fact that said custody was likely unlawful is beside the point. If you strike a police officer, you are the one charged first. Legally, you have to accept custody, then prove it unlawful.

Lol. This is off-topic, but... are you serious? I mean, even it Kuril wasn't a slave-trading mercenary moron douche, he could not take Shepard in "custody" legally. Wardens and prison guards don't arrest people, they just handle the arrested.

[MDT1]

@ Zulu_DFA
I don't know where you get your information about earth and the system alliance from (daydreaming?) but surely not from sources like the ingame codex where it is even expicitly stated, that earth is still the capital of humanity.

[Moiaussi]

MDT1 wrote...

Beeing Renegade doesn't remove common sense.
Shepard renegade wants to safe humanity by all means, but she still wants to safe it.
And after Arrival she knows Earth would be one of the first targets so she needs to get there and motivate people to move their asses.
Also regarding mass relay travel Earth is even safer than Arcturus station and what can happen if Shepard tries to escape a space station can be seen on the purgatory.

Common sense isn't assumed though. It can't be. If common sense was assumed by the judicial system, then all accused would be assumed innocent and never charged in the first place, since the same 'common sense' would suggest never committing a crime in the first place.

Getting to Earth on Shepard's own terms is a lot different 'common sense' than getting there under heavy guard as part of a show trial that might result in Shep being put on ice ala Jack and thus simply there as a nice neat welcome to Earth present for the Reapers.

[Zulu_DFA]

MDT1 wrote...

@ Zulu_DFA
I don't know where you get your information about earth and the system alliance from (daydreaming?) but surely not from sources like the ingame codex where it is even expicitly stated, that earth is still the capital of humanity.

And the Arturus Station is the military and political headquarders of the Systems Alliance, which is the "face of humanity", even though it's independent of Earth.

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Shepard also escaped after being taken into custody on the prison ship on Jack's recruitment mission. The fact that said custody was likely unlawful is beside the point. If you strike a police officer, you are the one charged first. Legally, you have to accept custody, then prove it unlawful.

Lol. This is off-topic, but... are you serious? I mean, even it Kuril wasn't a slave-trading mercenary moron douche, he could not take Shepard in "custody" legally. Wardens and prison guards don't arrest people, they just handle the arrested.

They are part of the law enforcement system. They don't normally arrest people because they are not normally in a position to do so, but if a convict was being released having served their term, and assualted a guard or civillian on the way out, are you saying they would have to call the regular police to detain them or make the arrest?  What about a convict who commits a new crime within the prison... they have to call for outside law enforcement to investigate and/or recommend charges? They have to have law enforcement powers to be able to do their jobs.

And most jurisdictions have forms of 'citizen's arrests' anyway. That would be even more so in a dispersed empire ala ME.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 13 avril 2011 - 05:29 .

[nelly21]

Moiaussi wrote...

Again, it wasn't revoked for Saren until after a trial. Why would it be different for Shepard? Based on your theory, why would they bother with a trial on Earth rather than simply shooting him, possibly even shooting him in his sleep or otherwise just making him disappear?

Saren didn't receive a trial. There was a hearing. If a police officer shoots a suspect, he is placed on paid leave and a hearing is held. Same thing.

Once the evidence came and the Council realized Saren's guilt, they revoked his Spectre status immediately. THEN Saren would have had to stand trial.

Why wouldn't they just kill him? For anyone of a multitude of reasons. Just off the top of my head:

1. They don't want to assassinate the most important human in the galaxy.

2. Anonymously killing him doesn't help them since any conspiracy theorist could claim that the actions Shepard took were in the name of the Council.

3. They are trying to appease the Batarians. Shepard suddenly disappearing after Arrival and showing up dead doesn't show them that the Council or the Alliance had nothing to do with Bahak, it makes it look like they're trying to hide something.

[Moiaussi]

nelly21 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Again, it wasn't revoked for Saren until after a trial. Why would it be different for Shepard? Based on your theory, why would they bother with a trial on Earth rather than simply shooting him, possibly even shooting him in his sleep or otherwise just making him disappear?

Saren didn't receive a trial. There was a hearing. If a police officer shoots a suspect, he is placed on paid leave and a hearing is held. Same thing.

Once the evidence came and the Council realized Saren's guilt, they revoked his Spectre status immediately. THEN Saren would have had to stand trial.

Why wouldn't they just kill him? For anyone of a multitude of reasons. Just off the top of my head:

1. They don't want to assassinate the most important human in the galaxy.

2. Anonymously killing him doesn't help them since any conspiracy theorist could claim that the actions Shepard took were in the name of the Council.

3. They are trying to appease the Batarians. Shepard suddenly disappearing after Arrival and showing up dead doesn't show them that the Council or the Alliance had nothing to do with Bahak, it makes it look like they're trying to hide something.

Oh god, semantics.... when is a hearing not a trial?

1) If he is the 'most important human' they wouldn't want a trial either. They would want it all swept under the rug.

2) Conspiracy theorists can and will claim all sorts of things anyway. Convicting Shepard and incarcerating or shooting him 'legally' would just mean he would become a martyr to some and they would still be accused of having given the orders.

3) Shepard is already presumed dead by half the galaxy. No matter what they do, they will be accused of hiding something. The only solution that would work would be to turn him over to the Batarians and let them try him on their soil, not on Earth. Any human court will be seen as biased, even if it rules against Shepard.

[Centauri2002]

The majority of the arguments here are based on assumption and what we believe is going to happen in ME3. How about we just wait and see what happens? Whether you think it makes little sense or not, it's not a story-breaker. Is there really a need to make such a big deal out of such a minor issue?

That, and there have been arguments put forth here that sound like plausible explanations to me.

[Raven1015]

I was thinking more about this, and whether or not it makes sense for the trial to be on Earth, I think it would've been an awesome way to start ME3 for the trial to be on Arcturus. Why? Imagine the Reapers interrupting the trial, but in this case attacking the political and military headquarters of the entire Systems Alliance. Now imagine Shepard having to escape with his life from the station, as it explodes around him. Along the way, he has to make hard choices about what key personnel, equipment, and information he needs to save before the station is destroyed, and he can't save them all. Finally, he escapes from the Reaper attack just in time, but now the center of Alliance military and political power has been destroyed. Along with that, the Reapers would now be in control of the gateway to Earth, and a key crossroads between several important mass relays (at least if the codex is to be believes). Imagine the tension of the Reapers knocking on Earth's door, without actually kicking it down yet. The Alliance would've received a major kick to the balls in the first sequence of the game, the player would have been faced to make hard choices, and the possibly cliche Earth invasion would not have been used, all without sacrificing any emotional or story impact. I'm sure the actual opening of the game will probably outdo my version, but I kind of wish now that ME3 would start this way.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Shepard also escaped after being taken into custody on the prison ship on Jack's recruitment mission. The fact that said custody was likely unlawful is beside the point. If you strike a police officer, you are the one charged first. Legally, you have to accept custody, then prove it unlawful.

Lol. This is off-topic, but... are you serious? I mean, even it Kuril wasn't a slave-trading mercenary moron douche, he could not take Shepard in "custody" legally. Wardens and prison guards don't arrest people, they just handle the arrested.

They are part of the law enforcement system. They don't normally arrest people because they are not normally in a position to do so, but if a convict was being released having served their term, and assualted a guard or civillian on the way out, are you saying they would have to call the regular police to detain them or make the arrest?  What about a convict who commits a new crime within the prison... they have to call for outside law enforcement to investigate and/or recommend charges? They have to have law enforcement powers to be able to do their jobs.

And most jurisdictions have forms of 'citizen's arrests' anyway. That would be even more so in a dispersed empire ala ME.

But you can resist a "citizen's arrest", if you think it's unlawful or even an honest mistake, because if it really is, it'll be qualified as "assault", unlike an arrest by police, which you have to comply with, even if it's a mistake.

[MDT1]

Moiaussi wrote...

MDT1 wrote...

Beeing Renegade doesn't remove common sense.
Shepard renegade wants to safe humanity by all means, but she still wants to safe it.
And after Arrival she knows Earth would be one of the first targets so she needs to get there and motivate people to move their asses.
Also regarding mass relay travel Earth is even safer than Arcturus station and what can happen if Shepard tries to escape a space station can be seen on the purgatory.

Common sense isn't assumed though. It can't be. If common sense was assumed by the judicial system, then all accused would be assumed innocent and never charged in the first place, since the same 'common sense' would suggest never committing a crime in the first place.

Getting to Earth on Shepard's own terms is a lot different 'common sense' than getting there under heavy guard as part of a show trial that might result in Shep being put on ice ala Jack and thus simply there as a nice neat welcome to Earth present for the Reapers.

Tali trial was also a show trial and it could end quite good...

The problem with this whole discussion is that not every human would do the same thing in the same situation.
While I think it makes totally sense you think it doesn't and I guess this wont change no matter how much we discuss about it.
But this is also typical for human history where you can follow some events and sometimes you just ask yourself how something could possibly happen the way it did. But as human history has no plot holes it's a case of "I don't like it" and/or "I don't get it", just like it is here.