1529 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

centauri2002 wrote...

The majority of the arguments here are based on assumption and what we believe is going to happen in ME3. How about we just wait and see what happens? Whether you think it makes little sense or not, it's not a story-breaker. Is there really a need to make such a big deal out of such a minor issue?

That, and there have been arguments put forth here that sound like plausible explanations to me.

It's already happened. Hackett has already foretold the future, and it has been confirmed by the GI article, and it's quite implausible, for the reasons discussed in the thread. And the "plausible explanations" needed to be at least hinted at by Hackett when he was making a series of statements in the end of the DLC, some of which contradicted even his own statements from the beginning of the DLC. Without "plausible explanations" made in-game it's a bunch of plot holes.

[nelly21]

Moiaussi wrote...

Oh god, semantics.... when is a hearing not a trial?

Did you fall asleep? I just told you.

1) If he is the 'most important human' they wouldn't want a trial either. They would want it all swept under the rug.

 How do you sweep possibly the most well-known organic in the galaxy under the rug?

2) Conspiracy theorists can and will claim all sorts of things anyway. Convicting Shepard and incarcerating or shooting him 'legally' would just mean he would become a martyr to some and they would still be accused of having given the orders..

Exactly why you don't shoot him. On trial he can be reduced from an icon to a terrorist. If he's dead, he'll remain an icon.

3) Shepard is already presumed dead by half the galaxy. No matter what they do, they will be accused of hiding something. The only solution that would work would be to turn him over to the Batarians and let them try him on their soil, not on Earth. Any human court will be seen as biased, even if it rules against Shepard.

Except he isn't dead. Turning him over to the Batarians will ****** off the very people they are trying to influence. He has to be formally accused and discredited first. Otherwise, they are turning over a very well-known individual on the mere whim of a very unpopular group.

[Someone With Mass]

I just love the assumptions that are based on vague facts in this thread.

[KJandrew]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

2. Shepard is an Alliance Marine. Because, big surprize: he didn't die. That should be the long and short of it. But I'll extend: Hackett has given you multiple proofs that Shepard is considered an Alliance serviceman, the latest being his request to wear the "dress blues" to the trial.

Even as a spectre, Shepard never stopped being an Alliance Marine, he was just assigned to a foreign unit. But the Alliance can't recall him without the Council's consent.

Shepard isn't part of the alliance, Hackett tells us this in ME1 when he asks us to help him out.  He hopes that we still retain some of our old loyalties so we can help him. 

[SalsaDMA]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I just love the assumptions that are based on vague facts in this thread.

If you mean assumptions based on what happens in Arrival, based on what have happened previously in the game series and based on the lore as described by the codex all are 'vague facts'; then I have a hard time figuring out what you can possible want to make it more 'substantial'.

Imo, it sounds more like the fanboys refusing to admit that bioware made a booboo with their beloved series, and are going to stick to having a booboo sitting smack at the start of the entire premise for the 'grand finale'.

Doesn't really look good for the rest of the games lore, imo, if they're willing to blow large holes in their own lore just to make 'incredible moments'. I smell a second coming of the 'something awesome happens' with this kind of things released from them

[Zulu_DFA]

KJandrew wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

2. Shepard is an Alliance Marine. Because, big surprize: he didn't die. That should be the long and short of it. But I'll extend: Hackett has given you multiple proofs that Shepard is considered an Alliance serviceman, the latest being his request to wear the "dress blues" to the trial.

Even as a spectre, Shepard never stopped being an Alliance Marine, he was just assigned to a foreign unit. But the Alliance can't recall him without the Council's consent.

Shepard isn't part of the alliance, Hackett tells us this in ME1 when he asks us to help him out.  He hopes that we still retain some of our old loyalties so we can help him. 

The Alliance can't give Shepard orders as long as he remains a Council Spectre. As soon as his spectre status is revoked, he is "back with the Alliance", even if he is dead (which, turns out, he isn't). Like it or not, that's how the military works.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 13 avril 2011 - 06:47 .

[Wuxi]

Where exactly is the problem anyway?
So arcturus station is the political center of the systems alliance and the military center of humanity. Why does that mean that the trial has to be on the station? The political center and capital of germany is berlin. The highest court is in a city most of you have never heard about. On the other side of the country.
The military court of the netherlands is in arnhem. The capital is amsterdam.
In my opinion the highest court shouldn't be in the same place as the political powers. Seperation of power - to diminish the influence military and politics have on the courts the courts are physically removed from the seat of power and thus not on arcturus station.

In my opinion (yes, wild theories) it will go this way:
The system goes boom, batarians may or may not have any evidence on shepards involvement, but they know humans planned to destroy the mass relay and now they demand blood, prefered death toll in the billions.
Udina doesn't want war, so he needs a scapegoat. Anyone would do, really. Someone like cerberus. Cerberus is working (at least in the councils opinion) with shepard, so udina tries to divert the blame and remove a political enemy in one stroke. It is stated (by the asari councillor herself) that working with cerberus alone is an act of treason. No further reasons needed the council removes shepards specter status and udina puts shepard on trial. As both shepard and udina aren't part of the alliance (after shepards death) he gets a civil trial. Or a trial as a war criminal (which could be in den haag, for traditions sake), doesn't really matter. Or he still gets a military trial but hackett wants his favourite prostitute around.

I really don't see the plothole. Maybe you project the exact political/military system your country has on the mass effect canon. Nothing says that trials have to be held on arcturus station/citadel/wherever and as long as this doesn't change, a trial on earth is not a plothole.

[nelly21]

Wuxi wrote...

Where exactly is the problem anyway?
So arcturus station is the political center of the systems alliance and the military center of humanity. Why does that mean that the trial has to be on the station? The political center and capital of germany is berlin. The highest court is in a city most of you have never heard about. On the other side of the country.
The military court of the netherlands is in arnhem. The capital is amsterdam.
In my opinion the highest court shouldn't be in the same place as the political powers. Seperation of power - to diminish the influence military and politics have on the courts the courts are physically removed from the seat of power and thus not on arcturus station.

In my opinion (yes, wild theories) it will go this way:
The system goes boom, batarians may or may not have any evidence on shepards involvement, but they know humans planned to destroy the mass relay and now they demand blood, prefered death toll in the billions.
Udina doesn't want war, so he needs a scapegoat. Anyone would do, really. Someone like cerberus. Cerberus is working (at least in the councils opinion) with shepard, so udina tries to divert the blame and remove a political enemy in one stroke. It is stated (by the asari councillor herself) that working with cerberus alone is an act of treason. No further reasons needed the council removes shepards specter status and udina puts shepard on trial. As both shepard and udina aren't part of the alliance (after shepards death) he gets a civil trial. Or a trial as a war criminal (which could be in den haag, for traditions sake), doesn't really matter. Or he still gets a military trial but hackett wants his favourite prostitute around.

I really don't see the plothole. Maybe you project the exact political/military system your country has on the mass effect canon. Nothing says that trials have to be held on arcturus station/citadel/wherever and as long as this doesn't change, a trial on earth is not a plothole.

Very well said. My point exactly.

[Someone With Mass]

The trial is never going to be finished anyway, since it's supposed to be interrupted by the Reapers. It's really not that big of a deal.

Perhaps we'll meet James Sanders there, but I wouldn't put any money on that the trial is something so important the location might ruin the whole thing. I really doubt it.

[Zulu_DFA]

Wuxi wrote...

Where exactly is the problem anyway?
So arcturus station is the political center of the systems alliance and the military center of humanity. Why does that mean that the trial has to be on the station? The political center and capital of germany is berlin. The highest court is in a city most of you have never heard about. On the other side of the country.
The military court of the netherlands is in arnhem. The capital is amsterdam.
In my opinion the highest court shouldn't be in the same place as the political powers. Seperation of power - to diminish the influence military and politics have on the courts the courts are physically removed from the seat of power and thus not on arcturus station.

You forget, that the the Alliance is not some 1000-year old state bound by tradition and stuff, and "separation of power" is not the concept a state born in a military coup would readily endorse.

Wuxi wrote...

In my opinion (yes, wild theories) it will go this way:
The system goes boom, batarians may or may not have any evidence on shepards involvement, but they know humans planned to destroy the mass relay and now they demand blood, prefered death toll in the billions.
Udina doesn't want war, so he needs a scapegoat. Anyone would do, really. Someone like cerberus. Cerberus is working (at least in the councils opinion) with shepard, so udina tries to divert the blame and remove a political enemy in one stroke. It is stated (by the asari councillor herself) that working with cerberus alone is an act of treason. No further reasons needed the council removes shepards specter status and udina puts shepard on trial. As both shepard and udina aren't part of the alliance (after shepards death) he gets a civil trial. Or a trial as a war criminal (which could be in den haag, for traditions sake), doesn't really matter. Or he still gets a military trial but hackett wants his favourite prostitute around.

This does not explain how exactly putting Shepard on trial (and thus officially admitting Human involvement in the destruction of the Bahak system) is going to appease the Batarians and prevent the war. It's only going to actually justify it and make the aliens more sympathetic with the Batarians - something Hackett initially tried to avoid, by staging Kenson's covert op and later involving Shepard in it.

Wuxi wrote...

I really don't see the plothole. Maybe you project the exact political/military system your country has on the mass effect canon. Nothing says that trials have to be held on arcturus station/citadel/wherever and as long as this doesn't change, a trial on earth is not a plothole.

I project the Mass Effect canon on the prospect of putting Shepard on trial on Earth and it doesn't add up.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 13 avril 2011 - 07:02 .

[Kolos2]

Arcturos station is just an military base and a government seat, maybe not the only one; it has in no way so much importance than Earth

What i dislike is the forced decision in Arrival, hell i would wait and blow the star system when the reapers pop up.

But truth be told i was sure from the beginning we will get a trial in ME3 of sorts; its an logical plot step

[nelly21]

1. The Alliance wasn't created by military coup.

2. The codex mentions Arcturus Station being the political and military center of the Alliance. It makes no mention of it having judiciary power over Alliance citizens.

[Zulu_DFA]

nelly21 wrote...

1. The Alliance wasn't created by military coup.

It was. The 2nd Fleet under Admiral Dresher engaged the Turians on Shanxi without permission from Earth. It's called "to go rogue".

nelly21 wrote...

2. The codex mentions Arcturus Station being the political and military center of the Alliance. It makes no mention of it having judiciary power over Alliance citizens.

The Codex has no mention of the Alliance even having a concept of "judiciary" system.

AND,

The unofficial commentary by Chris L'Etoile, the writer responsible for all ME1 Codex entries and planet descriptions and parts of those in ME2, regarding the Systems Alliance and how it gained independence from Earth's governments:

http://stormwaltz.ga...-upon-the-stars

Note, how he says "It's possible the new writing team for ME3 will come to a new agreement." In other words, RETCON.

[nelly21]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

[It was. The 2nd Fleet under Admiral Dresher engaged the Turians on Shanxi without permission from Earth. It's called "to go rogue".


The Codex has no mention of the Alliance even having a concept of "judiciary" system.

AND,

[i]THE UNNOFFICIAL COMMENTARY[/i] by Chris L'Etoile, the writer responsible for all ME1 Codex entries and planet descriptions and parts of those in ME2, regarding the Systems Alliance and how it gained independence from Earth's governments:

http://stormwaltz.ga...-upon-the-stars

Note, how he says "It's possible the new writing team for ME3 will come to a new agreement." In other words, RETCON.

Dude. http://wiki.answers....a_military_coup. Read it.

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

But you can resist a "citizen's arrest", if you think it's unlawful or even an honest mistake, because if it really is, it'll be qualified as "assault", unlike an arrest by police, which you have to comply with, even if it's a mistake.

In a prison, if you assault a guard even as a visitor, the guards do have the authority to detain you though. If a crime is committed in a prison, even by a visitor, the guards have the authority to make the arrest. On what basis wouldn't they have the authority to arrest someone who simply had warrants against them?

They are law enforcement. They don't patrol the streets, the patrol the prison in which they work. That doesn't diminish their authority, just their 'beat.'

[Avissel]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Note, how he says "It's possible the new writing team for ME3 will come to a new agreement." In other words, RETCON.

He was refering to the number of nations on Earth. Which he said was left unspecifed. If you specefy something that was unspecifed, thats not a retcon.

[Moiaussi]

nelly21 wrote...

Did you fall asleep? I just told you.

Go find a dictionary and get back to me.

 How do you sweep possibly the most well-known organic in the galaxy under the rug?

Same way he was swept under while dead. By virtue of said person being dead and unable to say anything to contradict whatever is said about him.

Exactly why you don't shoot him. On trial he can be reduced from an icon to a terrorist. If he's dead, he'll remain an icon.

No more nor less so than when Shepard was actually dead. This has already happened once.

Except he isn't dead. Turning him over to the Batarians will ****** off the very people they are trying to influence. He has to be formally accused and discredited first. Otherwise, they are turning over a very well-known individual on the mere whim of a very unpopular group.

But the only reason for having a trial is to appease the Batarians, and a trial in any Earth or Alliance or likely even Council is unlikely to do that. They don't need to appease people who don't think he did anything wrong.

[SalsaDMA]

Moiaussi wrote...

But the only reason for having a trial is to appease the Batarians, and a trial in any Earth or Alliance or likely even Council is unlikely to do that. They don't need to appease people who don't think he did anything wrong.

Hell, the majority of humans prob think whoever blasted a batarian system was doing the right thing, regardless of the reasons for doing so.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

But you can resist a "citizen's arrest", if you think it's unlawful or even an honest mistake, because if it really is, it'll be qualified as "assault", unlike an arrest by police, which you have to comply with, even if it's a mistake.

In a prison, if you assault a guard even as a visitor, the guards do have the authority to detain you though. If a crime is committed in a prison, even by a visitor, the guards have the authority to make the arrest. On what basis wouldn't they have the authority to arrest someone who simply had warrants against them?

They are law enforcement. They don't patrol the streets, the patrol the prison in which they work. That doesn't diminish their authority, just their 'beat.'

OK, I admit, that in some uber-lawful-good perception of the world and the ME universe, Kuril and his goons can count as "law enforcement". As I understand it though, they are just that: private goons in no-man's-land, whom anyone can kick in the arse, and as long as he gets away with it, nobody is going to hold that against him.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 13 avril 2011 - 08:10 .

[Gravbh]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

But the only reason for having a trial is to appease the Batarians, and a trial in any Earth or Alliance or likely even Council is unlikely to do that. They don't need to appease people who don't think he did anything wrong.

Hell, the majority of humans prob think whoever blasted a batarian system was doing the right thing, regardless of the reasons for doing so.

Well humans are all racist.

Modifié par Gravbh, 13 avril 2011 - 07:57 .

[CroGamer002]

Avissel wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Note, how he says "It's possible the new writing team for ME3 will come to a new agreement." In other words, RETCON.

He was refering to the number of nations on Earth. Which he said was left unspecifed. If you specefy something that was unspecifed, thats not a retcon.

Well there's 52 less sovereign states that's for sure.

[BAOBAB_AOTEAROA]

hello zulu, i am not a jurist, but i think your argument is not well enough researched, don´t get me wrong please , i am not talking about your research on the mass effect universe but instead on your research on existing trial procedures on earth.

i think we tend to understand the law and the relations between states in judicial matters as as relatively ordered and well oiled system, well it is not, in the sense that there must exist a rather complex order of law hierarchy between lands, there must exist defined fields where this hierarchy relation actually applies(criminal, bankruptcy and so on..) and the there is of course the extradition law ( especially important in Shepard's case)  where another rules apply again.....


...oh there is one last factor, the most important actually, the political will.

…..because no matter  what Jan-Jacques Rousseau told us about independence of the different state powers,  without political will there will be no trail , or it will be a kind of farce trial.

there are numerous examples of this right now on earth:

look at the former secretary of state of the USA Henry Kissinger, a USA politician would be a  very much  researched person in Latin America for his involvement in the Argentinian and Chilean dictatorship, but usa doesn´t  permit it.

look actually at the former dictator Pinochet, he cannot be called to court in Chile because of political and juridical agreements so a spanish court is the only possibility for him to be legally punished for murdering thousands,and all this thanks to a very brave ( or mad) spanish judge( Balthazar Garzón) and Chileans who escaped to Spain and press charges against him. Will the Spanish ever get hands on him? i doubt it he is too old now …...

since we are talking about war criminals, you should definitely  look at Adolf Eichmann´s capture in argentina on wikipedia, it is not a straight forward procedure, the mossad agent would have been trialed if caught in argentina.


…..and last, italy ,dear italy, a state that has given us many wonderful things, has also given  to light , THIS SAME DAY, a law that will permit it´s prime minister Berlusconi to avoid at leats two trails

MY FIRST POINT IS that the will of earth in  will matter, and especially so if Shepard has been caught on earth and somebody pressed charges against him( even for convenient political reasons  - a human icon judged by batarians? no way.....

MY SECOND POINT concerns the extradition law and extradition agreements.

at this very moment in Austria, Salzburg, there is one man sitting behind bars, this man was once a first minister of a little state in Europe called Croatia. Different Croatian governmental institutions requested his arrest for corruption charges( 200 mill. euro the damage apparently), but he was caught  in Austria.
Croatia formally applied for extradition in December, but as it appears, Austrian authorities have reason to believe ivo sanader could be an useful witness on a matters regarding another trial, and Austrian extradition law permits them to keep him in austria in jail until the authorities are satisfied. i must underline there are NO charges against him in Austria.


::::::::::::::::::BACK TO THE GAME:::::::::::::::::

since we don´t know  the place of capture of shepard or the identity of forces beeing responsible for the capture we may presume that

        place of capture is earth
OR
                 the forces responsible for capture, want to bring him to earth

  and  since we don´t know

the political will of human kind andextradition agreements valid on earth

WE CANNOT SAY, NOW,




THERE IS NO REASON FOR SHEPARD TO BE TRIED AND/OR IMPRISONED ON EARTH!!!!

because that would not be  logical and reasonable with the element we know right now.

i am trying to say we have to wait for ME3, to see if you are right ZULU,  ha ha ….. right now you are not.

edit: layout

Modifié par BAOBAB_AOTEAROA, 13 avril 2011 - 08:13 .

[Zulu_DFA]

nelly21 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

[It was. The 2nd Fleet under Admiral Dresher engaged the Turians on Shanxi without permission from Earth. It's called "to go rogue".


The Codex has no mention of the Alliance even having a concept of "judiciary" system.

AND,

[i]THE UNNOFFICIAL COMMENTARY[/i] by Chris L'Etoile, the writer responsible for all ME1 Codex entries and planet descriptions and parts of those in ME2, regarding the Systems Alliance and how it gained independence from Earth's governments:

http://stormwaltz.ga...-upon-the-stars

Note, how he says "It's possible the new writing team for ME3 will come to a new agreement." In other words, RETCON.

Dude. http://wiki.answers....a_military_coup. Read it.

http://en.wikipedia....Pronunciamiento

Avissel wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Note, how he says "It's possible the new writing team for ME3 will come to a new agreement." In other words, RETCON.

Hewas refering to the number of nations on Earth. Which he said was left unspecifed. If you specefy something that was unspecifed, thats not a retcon.

OK, true and fair enough, what about the rest of what he said?

[earthbornFemShep]

The only justifications I have for it being on Earth are these:
1) Shepard may be stripped Spectre status and is no longer considered Alliance military; so s/he is tried on Earth because that is essentially humanity's home. [Turians ship xenophobic criminals back to their home planet for trial (as was discussed in ME1 with the 10th Street Reds), why can't humans? It is not like Shep would get a fair trial (or a trial at all) if we shipped her/him to the Batarian homeworld. Earth is the next best choice.]
2) Since it is a 'show' by humanity for the Batarians, having the setting be on Earth has more weight than elsewhere.
3) Mass Effect players want to see Earth... so BW is showing it to us.

[Centauri2002]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

The majority of the arguments here are based on assumption and what we believe is going to happen in ME3. How about we just wait and see what happens? Whether you think it makes little sense or not, it's not a story-breaker. Is there really a need to make such a big deal out of such a minor issue?

That, and there have been arguments put forth here that sound like plausible explanations to me.

It's already happened. Hackett has already foretold the future, and it has been confirmed by the GI article, and it's quite implausible, for the reasons discussed in the thread. And the "plausible explanations" needed to be at least hinted at by Hackett when he was making a series of statements in the end of the DLC, some of which contradicted even his own statements from the beginning of the DLC. Without "plausible explanations" made in-game it's a bunch of plot holes.

Do you need every little detail explained to you as events happen? How realistic is that going to be? It's quite possible a reasonable explanation will be given at the beginning of ME3. Just because the trial's happening and has been confirmed via DLC and GI, doesn't mean there's no good reason for it.

The arguments given in this thread as to why it is happening on Earth by players have been plausible, just as some of the arguments you make against it are as well. If you could recognise that, it would make for a much more interesting, and dare I say fun, debate. But all I can see is you arguing anything anyone says that doesn't fit into your objections. 

At the end of the day, is it going to ruin the game for you if you don't find the official explanation plausible? If it is, don't play it. If it isn't, just drop it.