1529 réponses à ce sujet

[Welsh Inferno]

Did neither of you read past "Deal with it"? 

I said go ahead, continue. Simply stating my opinion that where the trial is taking place really doesn't matter and i'll love it anyway.

[Zulu_DFA]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Zulu, just wanted to point out that the writers have at one point admitted to a retcon. The battle of the citadel was initially including dreadnoughts, but then somebody counted the amount of large ships and compared it with the amount of ships the codex said they had available of that type and it was: "Wooops..."

So it was changed to no dreadnoughts in that battle, and the writers admitted there had been a miscommunication or something like that between them and the ones doing the graphics.

So... was it "no dreadnougts" or "the cinematics dropped the ball" (like they always do, for instance, with the "invisible mass relay" near the Collector base)? Either way, no Alliance dreadnoughts were lost in that battle, before or after the cutscene dispell.

[SalsaDMA]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Zulu, just wanted to point out that the writers have at one point admitted to a retcon. The battle of the citadel was initially including dreadnoughts, but then somebody counted the amount of large ships and compared it with the amount of ships the codex said they had available of that type and it was: "Wooops..."

So it was changed to no dreadnoughts in that battle, and the writers admitted there had been a miscommunication or something like that between them and the ones doing the graphics.

So... was it "no dreadnougts" or "the cinematics dropped the ball" (like they always do, for instance, with the "invisible mass relay" near the Collector base)? Either way, no Alliance dreadnoughts were lost in that battle, before or after the cutscene dispell.

Both. But because the cinematic was in the game that was released, it was considered the new canon and the ships depicted in it were to be considered to be... cruisers I think... instead.

So you actually have an interesting development of the battle of the citadel having no human dreadnoughts attending at all, despite the importance of the battle

[Zulu_DFA]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Zulu, just wanted to point out that the writers have at one point admitted to a retcon. The battle of the citadel was initially including dreadnoughts, but then somebody counted the amount of large ships and compared it with the amount of ships the codex said they had available of that type and it was: "Wooops..."

So it was changed to no dreadnoughts in that battle, and the writers admitted there had been a miscommunication or something like that between them and the ones doing the graphics.

So... was it "no dreadnougts" or "the cinematics dropped the ball" (like they always do, for instance, with the "invisible mass relay" near the Collector base)? Either way, no Alliance dreadnoughts were lost in that battle, before or after the cutscene dispell.

Both. But because the cinematic was in the game that was released, it was considered the new canon and the ships depicted in it were to be considered to be... cruisers I think... instead.

So you actually have an interesting development of the battle of the citadel having no human dreadnoughts attending at all, despite the importance of the battle

Have you got a link to the exact "No dreadnoughts were present" statement?

[eye basher]

the alliance ships at the battle of the citadel where cruisers and fighters there where no dreadnoughts.

[Zulu_DFA]

eye basher wrote...

the alliance ships at the battle of the citadel where cruisers and fighters there where no dreadnoughts.

Source?

[eye basher]

bioware said it a long time ago the ship models the alliance used in the battle of the citadel were supposed to be dreadnoughts but because at the time the alliance only had 7 dreadnoughts and you see more than 7 in the battle they had to retcon it and make them alliance cruisers insted.

[Zulu_DFA]

eye basher wrote...

bioware said it a long time ago the ship models the alliance used in the battle of the citadel were supposed to be dreadnoughts but because at the time the alliance only had 7 dreadnoughts and you see more than 7 in the battle they had to retcon it and make them alliance cruisers insted.

1. I want to see a link to an actual post/statement by BioWare.

2. Since the cutsences are inaccurate anyway, and feature "invisible mass Relays" at times, I think we can freely presume that there could be any number of "invisible dreadnoughts" in the battle of the Citadel.

Also, this.

In other words, Codex/dialogue >> cutscenes.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 avril 2011 - 10:09 .

[Stormy-B]

This probably has been said before, but the Council doesn't need a trial to strip Shepard of his/her Spectre status. Everyone who has played ME1 has seen this first hand when they simply take Sarens status away, as far as I could tell there wasn't anything resembling a trial there.

The Alliance can always claim that Shepard never came back to them after being confirmed alive, and thus should not be tried as an Alliance Marine would be.
Having the trial on earth might be about humans/alliance trying to repair some of the diplomatic shenanigans with the Batarians and inviting representatives from Khar'shan to our homeplanet.

Or it's used as a dramatic effect and not for any other reason, this wouldn't be surprising as it will happen sometime in every game ever made.

[Zulu_DFA]

Stormy-B wrote...

This probably has been said before, but the Council doesn't need a trial to strip Shepard of his/her Spectre status. Everyone who has played ME1 has seen this first hand when they simply take Sarens status away, as far as I could tell there wasn't anything resembling a trial there.

1. They gave Saren a word the first time.

2. How can Hackett know it in advance, that they'll strip him?

Stormy-B wrote...

The Alliance can always claim that Shepard never came back to them after being confirmed alive, and thus should not be tried as an Alliance Marine would be.

Yes, he should, more than anything be tried as an Alliance Marine, AWOL.

Stormy-B wrote...

Having the trial on earth might be about humans/alliance trying to repair some of the diplomatic shenanigans with the Batarians and inviting representatives from Khar'shan to our homeplanet.

1. And why not invite the representatives to the place the Alliance made for inviting representatives, its capital space station in the Arcturus system?

2. How can Hackett know it in advance, that they'll invite them to Earth and not the Arcturus station?

Stormy-B wrote...

Or it's used as a dramatic effect and not for any other reason, this wouldn't be surprising as it will happen sometime in every game ever made.

Surprising or not, it sucks, because "dramatic effect" making no sense = farce.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 19 avril 2011 - 11:06 .

[ExtremeOne]

good maybe I can say F U to the Alliance judge or better yet not even go to it

[Moiaussi]

I think the original statement was that a Turian ship shown in the cutscene was a cruiser, not a dreadnaught. I don't remember any statements saying there were no dreadnaughts in the battle. The cutscene didn't show every ship in the engagement anyway.

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Yes, he should, more than anything be tried as an Alliance Marine, AWOL.

Not really... When he was transferred to the Spectres, he ceased being an Alliance Marine. Hackett acknowledges that, calling on patriotism rather that pretending any sort of actual authority in ME1. He says that he hopes Shepard will still be loyal to the Alliance, rather than 'in addition to being a Spectre, you are still and Alliance Marine.'

If Shepard retains his Spectre status, he definately therefore isn't an Alliance Marine. Even if the status is removed, it doesn't mean he suddenly becomes a marine again. He was mustered out when he became a Spectre. They can't just re-hire him against his will without initiating some sort of draft proceedure, and since they definately didn't get any such message to him (him being dead and all), they can't really charge him with being AWOL.

The Council might be able to, but the Alliance couldn't.

[Aumata]

celuloid wrote...
Did you actually play the Arrival DLC?
1. Shepard comes in to free Kenson and then introduces himself in front of recording equipment: "Hi, I'm Commander Shepard and I came to rescue you". Shepard effectively "saved" criminal who openly admitted she was going to blow relay. And then 2 days pass and Batarian system gets destroyed.
2. Shortly before destruction of system Shepard transmits partial message to Normandy or Batarian colonies. This message gets away, because we can see Joker trying to communicate through noisy channel.
3. Then shuttle with indoctrinated humans takes off. We have yet to see how this will work out exactly, but it will surely work out to Shepard's disadvantage. They are indoctrinated, for Christ's sake.

Even Batarians can add two and two, but obviously people on this forum cannot. I don't get how anyone can be so DENSE to sweep Shepard's involvement under the rug.

Now that we have irrefutably established Shepard's involvement is public knowledge, let's focus on the actual place of trial.

1. Khar'Shan - Shepard is not suicidal to attend this trial (or is he?). Do Batarians even recognize concept of trial? Alliance won't extradite Shepard without trial because Alliance public will go crazy. They will demonize him first and for that they need impression of just trial. And besides, people forget that Alliance itself has many scores to settle with Shepard.
Jacob Taylor: "We might be tried and executed. You can't count on people to see things our way".
Cerberus and Shepard is Alliance problem, Alliance will deal with it. Thus, Khar'Shan is a no go.

2. Citadel - Let's make one thing clear. Council does not do trials. This is what Council does:
Representatives of Council races can appeal to Council and then they might be admitted to hearing. As a result of this hearing, Council can make political or military decisions for the greater good of galaxy. They don't do trials and don't sentence people to prison/execution/torture. They don't have time for this.
Saren did not get trial. He was stripped of Spectre status and left for any law enforcement to take care of him. That is all Council will do with Spectre-Shepard - kick him out of Spectres. Now you might insist this act has to be shown on camera, and for that you must wait for ME3. Don't post on forum claiming the game has plotholes when you only saw GameInformer article which describes canon storyline. You know, the one where Council is dead and Shepard is not Spectre anymore.

3. Arcturus station
People claim that having trial outside Arcturus is plothole.
What part of canon does explicitly state that trials are held on Arcturus station? You claim trials are held on Arcturus but where is proof?
Where. Is. The. Goddamn. Proof !?!

Ashley Williams: "They brought him [General Williams] back to Earth in irons. But there wasn't any trial".
I will spell this out for you:
They brought Alliance general back to Earth. In order to punish him. Alliance was subject to Earth even after Relay 314 incident. Your argument is lost, Arcturus defendants.
Your whole reasoning about Arcturus independence from Earth is flawed. Alliance's position was augmented because of their ability to deal with threats. They did not usurp power in military coup and they are not military dictatorship. They are plural parliamentary democracy with elected representatives. 99% percent of people live on Earth and that means Earth is proportionally represented in parliament. You cannot be so deluded to suggest Earth augmented Alliance's power only to have no representation in parliament. Alliance is galactic frontend of humanity and humanity is 99% Earth. Thus, Alliance is 99% Earth.
Alliance (aka Earth) can deal with criminals however they deem appropriate. Dealing with them in confined space station next to Parliament and Military HQ is plothole. It does not make any sense.

Now I would appreciate someone to refute any of my reasonings. Not with non-arguments like: "ME3 will not give us proper explanation", but with actual ingame lore.

Zulu_DFA wrote...
    

    Arcian wrote...

    I remember two scenes in ME1 that quite clearly indicates that Earth is very relevant to the Alliance, for example, the reporter that Shepard can punch out frequently mentions Earth by name in the interview or refers to it by the phrase "people back home", and even outright asks Shepard if the Council has ever asked him/her to place their needs before the needs of Earth. She also refers to the Normandy as "Earth's" vessel. She finishes the interview with "The eyes of Earth are on you". For reference.
    

But at least you're starting to think now. So I'll tell you a secret: there is certain canon material that can pawn me quite seriously (not that I couldn't hold against, but still), yet for 50 pages not a single apologist of the trial on Earth mentioned it.

Maybe you would want to share with us? Point of this discussion is to come to objective conclusion about what is feasible and what is not according to ME canon. But you are obviously here only to dismiss all ingame lore which contradicts your cause and that is having written ME specifically to accomodate your view on Arcturus station. Show me a single line of dialogue in ME1 or ME2 where NPC mentions Arcturus station. There are dozens of Earth references. If Arcturus is retconned right now, it would not matter. Nobody saw it and nobody heard about it, effectively it does not exist in most perceptions of ME universe. That is the only argument you need for having trial on Earth. I was generous and offered you reasons why anything else does not make sense. You have only one codex entry about a station containing Parliament and Military HQ. Where are the courts? Where is the evidence of court locations?

Spot on, arrival got plague by lazy writing.  But Mass Effect Arrival should have been taken place at the end of  the game, where the Normandy is force to surrender.  Would have made more since.  Not to mention there is two ways to lose your specter status, by choice and by the council denoucing you of your Specter status.  With you being part of a Alliance black op mission that went bad.   The Council pretty much did just that, denouce you of your status as a Specter if you gotten it back, or you are a free agent so you are up to grabs.  ME2 made Shepard a political ****storm for everyone, the council did say that you are a specter by name only, you won't receive any help, and blowing up a system is overkill comparing to what Saren did when he lost his status.

Saren loses his status from launching an attack on the colony Freedom progress, and Shepard one up him by blowing a entire system, along with a relay.  Probably one of the worse attacks ever commited by anyone since the council been in power.  Though spot on for the Ashely reference to her grandfather a general being taken to earth for trial.

[MischievousLumi]

Too bad there was no option to blame it on Dr. Amanda Kenson, it was pretty much her fault to begin with anyways.

[PMC65]

When Anderson popped up after all the things that my Shepard has done to save the friggin' galaxy and say "We need you to be the slaughtered lamb ... ok?" I could hear Leo Getz say "They **** YOU at the drive-thru, okay? They **** YOU at the drive-thru! They know you're gonna be miles away before you find out you got ****ed!"
I hated the Alliance ... and now it is official. They are hence-forth called the drive-thru!

[Taritu]

My paragon Shep, once she became a SPECTRE, considered herself first and foremost having duty to all races, not to humans.  Still, I will take the time to tell the Alliance that I'm not loyal to them, given the option. It's about saving all races, not just humans.

Modifié par Taritu, 16 avril 2011 - 08:47 .

[DarthCaine]

He's on trial 'cos he's endangering Human - Batarian relationships since the Batarians are blaming the Alliance. The fact that he destroyed an entire system doesn't really matter

[Aedan_Cousland]

I agree.

ME3 may turn out to be AWESOME, but even so I think making Earth the main focus of the Reapers is a bit silly. As the seat of galactic power the Citadel should have been the Reapers first target. For starters it would be a blow at the Citadel Species command and control capabilities, and it would sow confusion, chaos, and probably a fare share of defeatism throughout the galaxy.

If it were up to me I would have had Shepard stand trial in the Citadel, with the Citadel being attacked and either completely overrun or destroyed in the first act.

[Chewin]

^Citadel attacked again?

[Aedan_Cousland]

Chewin3 wrote...

^Citadel attacked again?

Yes.

It is the capital of the Council species, in case you haven't noticed. Just because the Reapers failed to take it once, doesn't mean they should give up attacking it all together.

[ExtremeOne]

The trail is a joke

[Chewin]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Chewin3 wrote...

^Citadel attacked again?

Yes.

It is the capital of the Council species, in case you haven't noticed. Just because the Reapers failed to take it once, doesn't mean they should give up attacking it all together.

That isn't what I meant. Of course they'll attack the Citadel. From there the reapers can travel anywhere. What I meant was that it would be so "ME1 like" if Shep would be present when it happens.