137 réponses à ce sujet

[Frostmourne86]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

I have a feeling that in ME3 at some point in the story Harbinger will try to Assume Direct Control over Shepard.

Reaper tech is what helped bring him back to life something tells me that it won't be too difficult for the Reaper Puppet master to try and take over Shepards mind when he's close enough. That would make for an interesting bit of gameplay where we're foced to fight our team.

Nowhere does it say that Shepards' resurrection came about from Reaper-tech, since the Illusive Man put so much credits and resources into the Lazarus Project - and as someone else mentioned in a previous post, even Cerberus doesn't know much about indoctrination.

[Leonia]

Almostfaceman wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Shepard's plot-armour seems to be a weak excuse and if someone is unconcious they should be even more susceptible to brainwashing. Maybe the Reapers didn't try to indoctrinate him but that begs the question: why not? They could have studied Shepard a lot better if he was under their direct control. I know, it was only two days but it just seems odd that nothing happened.

No, it doesn't seem odd, because it was only two days.  Every mention of indoctrination says it takes weeks for the process to work.  Not two days.

But it's odd that NOTHING at all happened. No experiments, nothing. Two days passed without incident. Shepard was right there IN Harbinger's hands. I know the Reapers have a history of making mistakes and underestimating Shepard but having him right there under their thumb and not doing something to him? That just seems like one hell of a wasted opportunity. They could have at least started to indoctrinate, how were they to know they'd only have two days to work their Reaper magic?

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

I have a feeling that in ME3 at some point in the story Harbinger will try to Assume Direct Control over Shepard.

Reaper
tech is what helped bring him back to life something tells me that it
won't be too difficult for the Reaper Puppet master to try and take over
Shepards mind when he's close enough. That would make for an
interesting bit of gameplay where we're foced to fight our team.

So.. how come Harbinger hasn't tried assuming direct control of Shepard yet? He's had plenty of chances to do so, especially when, you know Shepard was knocked out for two days. We don't know the details about Lazarus Project, it's assuming too much that Reaper technology was used on Shepard. Even if that were so, Harbinger would have noticed it when that vision was sent to Shepard through Object Rho.

Modifié par leonia42, 31 mars 2011 - 01:56 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

TIM used Reaper tech to build a ship.... do you really think he didn't use advanced Reaper Tech to resurrect Shepard? If Reaper Tech wasn't used in re-building Shepard than bringing people back from the dead would happen alot more often.

If he was willing to build Normanday V2 with Reaper Tech and clearly knew what that Tech would do than he'd build Shepard with it as well.

[Leonia]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

TIM used Reaper tech to build a ship.... do you really think he didn't use advanced Reaper Tech to resurrect Shepard? If Reaper Tech wasn't used in re-building Shepard than bringing people back from the dead would happen alot more often.

If he was willing to build Normanday V2 with Reaper Tech and clearly knew what that Tech would do than he'd build Shepard with it as well.

EDI has some Reaper-tech and one can argue the Thanix cannons (if acquired) are also based on Reaper-tech. The ship itself is just a bigger version of the original SSV Normandy which was made by humans and turians without any Reaper-tech.

[Fuzzion]

Mangalores wrote...


"if possible..." they did blow Shepard up and let him get an icicle in space so I would take such words with a grain of salt. Either that or Harbinger is an idiot.

Well there might be many reason.
1. The reapers might have been 100% sure that he was dead after the normandy was destroyed and when they saw that he was alive again they got really curious, how often do people get back to life.

2. He also say if possible, I guess they  go with "better safe then sorry" when they blew the ship up when they had the oppertunity. But when they meet him in person it would be much easier.
----------------
And on the not getting indoctrinated thing it might be several things
1. The longest he have been exposed to reapers are for 2 days and he was unconcious (it can both help the reapers or block them off) So it might not be enough time and shepard is strong willed and can fight back (just like he in retribution) His team have only been exposed for hours and it's not enough if I guess right.

2. As someone else said it might be implants, TIM said that they didnt know how to stop indoctrination but it might be after they have been transformed but he might have known how to block out the reapers thoughts and have implanted something in shepards body.

3. Might be the thorian

4.The reapers might want him fully functional to make tests... (and might even be so that they want to test him because he resists them and they want to see what's the problem and make their indoctrination better)

Modifié par Fuzzion, 31 mars 2011 - 02:13 .

[Aesieru]

He's not around sources of indoctrination for a long enough period of time, same goes with the Thorian.

As for reviving Shepherd, I doubt they used any sort of reaper technology hybridization to bring him back.

More likely, with a lot of time and money and the best scientists and doctors they were able to replace and revitalize his systems and critical functions with mild nanites to rebuild and clean out his body, with heart-juction technology replace any damaged or decayed systems, and with fresh flow and blood to de-cryo his systems.

The only real issue was that we don't have the technology to de-cryo people safely yet, and that it took a lot of time and delicate work which you don't get medically these days because of the immense cost that it would take.

It makes sense when you look into what it would take and the time Shepherd was given.

Modifié par Aesieru, 31 mars 2011 - 02:04 .

[Almostfaceman]

leonia42 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Shepard's plot-armour seems to be a weak excuse and if someone is unconcious they should be even more susceptible to brainwashing. Maybe the Reapers didn't try to indoctrinate him but that begs the question: why not? They could have studied Shepard a lot better if he was under their direct control. I know, it was only two days but it just seems odd that nothing happened.

No, it doesn't seem odd, because it was only two days.  Every mention of indoctrination says it takes weeks for the process to work.  Not two days.

But it's odd that NOTHING at all happened. No experiments, nothing. Two days passed without incident. Shepard was right there IN Harbinger's hands. I know the Reapers have a history of making mistakes and underestimating Shepard but having him right there under their thumb and not doing something to him? That just seems like one hell of a wasted opportunity. They could have at least started to indoctrinate, how were they to know they'd only have two days to work their Reaper magic?

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

I have a feeling that in ME3 at some point in the story Harbinger will try to Assume Direct Control over Shepard.

Reaper
tech is what helped bring him back to life something tells me that it
won't be too difficult for the Reaper Puppet master to try and take over
Shepards mind when he's close enough. That would make for an
interesting bit of gameplay where we're foced to fight our team.

So.. how come Harbinger hasn't tried assuming direct control of Shepard yet? He's had plenty of chances to do so, especially when, you know Shepard was knocked out for two days. We don't know the details about Lazarus Project, it's assuming too much that Reaper technology was used on Shepard. Even if that were so, Harbinger would have noticed it when that vision was sent to Shepard through Object Rho.

Well, to be fair, the topic isn't "why didn't the people experiment on Shepard while he was passed out."  The topic is indoctrination.  Those are two different things.  I addressed indoctrination. 

Regarding experimentation - we know nothing except that the Reapers wanted to "keep Shepard alive".  Super Big Bad dudes fully expected to be noshing on Shepard bits while zooming through the Alpha Relay in 2 days.  It's
not that big a stretch to believe they'd leave him alive and unaltered for two days.  If they did experiment on him, they'd obviously be very careful about not harming Shepard.  We have no way of knowing whether Shepard was experimented on or not in other ways, so we can't really say "it's odd they didn't experiment on him".

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 31 mars 2011 - 02:11 .

[Apollo Starflare]

Personally I would have been more interested to see them add some indoctrination effects to the Last Stand fight. That relic was pulsing with dark matter and I would have accepted it's power as a reason for faster indoctrination symptoms. They could have had it messing with your vision/HUD, controls or who knows what to make it a little more interesting than a straight up waves of enemies fight. Similar to what Overlord did in fact.

Obviously then they would have had a bigger reason to have to explain why Shep doesn't get fully indoctrinated over those two days. But is there any reason they couldn't have let us destroy the relic? What is it's relevance to the plot besides acting as a MacGuffin for Shepard to turn up? It isn't a homing device for the reapers or something as far as I remember?

Or is it because Indoctrination wears off if you are not in proximity to a reaper device for a while?

[Almostfaceman]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

Personally I would have been more interested to see them add some indoctrination effects to the Last Stand fight. That relic was pulsing with dark matter and I would have accepted it's power as a reason for faster indoctrination symptoms. They could have had it messing with your vision/HUD, controls or who knows what to make it a little more interesting than a straight up waves of enemies fight. Similar to what Overlord did in fact.

Obviously then they would have had a bigger reason to have to explain why Shep doesn't get fully indoctrinated over those two days. But is there any reason they couldn't have let us destroy the relic? What is it's relevance to the plot besides acting as a MacGuffin for Shepard to turn up? It isn't a homing device for the reapers or something as far as I remember?

Or is it because Indoctrination wears off if you are not in proximity to a reaper device for a while?

Indoctrination doesn't "wear off" according to Benezia in ME1.  So far there's only one person who's beaten indoctrination and that's Shiala - and that's supposedly attributed to the Thorian influence over Shiala.  So indoctrination effects can't be added and subtracted.  It is stated clearly that if you're hearing "whispering in your mind" it's already too late.  Indoctrination has taken hold.

[dreman9999]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Could argue that since they want Shepard unaltered:

Harbinger: "Preserve Shepard's body if possible"

They probably are intentionally not indoctrinating him and want to study him when this is all over.

They want to Indoctrinate him. I just was not set in stone. I think that what ever indoctrination he /she has will take effect in ME3.

[Welsh Inferno]

Kamagawa wrote...

Why doesnt Shep get indoctrinated?

Cause he's the protagonist? Be a lame game if he gets indoctrinated and we play the game as a reaper slave

[CannotCompute]

Because Shep is actually a son of Bhaal... a Bhaalspawn, if you will.

[EternalPink]

CannotCompute wrote...

Because Shep is actually a son of Bhaal... a Bhaalspawn, if you will.

lol

The bit i don't get is why they'd have kept Shep alive for two days, surely at least one James Bond film has been broadcast into space for the reapers to know its just not a good idea

Modifié par EternalPink, 31 mars 2011 - 02:29 .

[FlyinElk212]

Foolsfolly wrote...

3- Shepard's unique and no longer vulnerable to indoctrination. Which is why Harby wants Shep's body so much.

This. Harbinger wants to examine what makes Shepard so different from everyone who's vulnerable to indoctrination. From there, he wants to correct it so no one can escape indoctrination in the future.

It properly explains two plot points that aren't really detailed by Bioware, while giving Shepard a true purpose to the story again instead of just "that guy that blows s*** up".

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 31 mars 2011 - 02:31 .

[Almostfaceman]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

3- Shepard's unique and no longer vulnerable to indoctrination. Which is why Harby wants Shep's body so much.

This. Harbinger wants to examine what makes Shepard so different from everyone who's vulnerable to indoctrination. From there, he wants to correct it so no one can escape indoctrination in the future.

It properly explains two plot points that aren't really detailed by Bioware, while giving Shepard a true purpose to the story again instead of just "that guy that blows s*** up".

They are already interested in Shepard and it has nothing to do with indoctrination.  Indoctrination takes weeks, not 2 days.  This is why Shepard is not indoctrinated.

[Almostfaceman]

dreman9999 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Could argue that since they want Shepard unaltered:

Harbinger: "Preserve Shepard's body if possible"

They probably are intentionally not indoctrinating him and want to study him when this is all over.

They want to Indoctrinate him. I just was not set in stone. I think that what ever indoctrination he /she has will take effect in ME3.

Nope.  According to everything we know about indoctrination it takes weeks, not 2 days, for the process to work.  Shepard was not exposed long enough to the reaper device to be indoctrinated.

[dreman9999]

CannotCompute wrote...

Because Shep is actually a son of Bhaal... a Bhaalspawn, if you will.

He's not the great student, choosen one of the force, or the champion of kirkwall?

[dreman9999]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

3- Shepard's unique and no longer vulnerable to indoctrination. Which is why Harby wants Shep's body so much.

This. Harbinger wants to examine what makes Shepard so different from everyone who's vulnerable to indoctrination. From there, he wants to correct it so no one can escape indoctrination in the future.

It properly explains two plot points that aren't really detailed by Bioware, while giving Shepard a true purpose to the story again instead of just "that guy that blows s*** up".

Not true at all. It takes time to be indicinated. Sheperd is not immune, just  that it started but did not finish. They just going to us it more in ME3.

[dreman9999]

EternalPink wrote...

CannotCompute wrote...

Because Shep is actually a son of Bhaal... a Bhaalspawn, if you will.

lol

The bit i don't get is why they'd have kept Shep alive for two days, surely at least one James Bond film has been broadcast into space for the reapers to know its just not a good idea

You don't remeber all the times Harbinger screamed out his undieing love for Sheperd? He does not want to kill him/her, He wants Shep as their new vanguard. A new Seran. How could they know how good Miranda is with her work.

[AquamanOS]

You can be exposed to indoctrination though and be alright if you're away from it before it's taken hold.
Many people that were near Soveriegn while it made it's various stops in ME1 mentioned the noise that bore into their brain, from it but once it left the area they were fine. And of course Shepard and crew where inside the derelict but they were in and out before it was able to affect them.

As for why Shepard wasn't indoctrinated by Rho, you need to be consious for it. It's clearly established that step 1 of indoctrination is weakening of the mind, which can happen in various ways (Benezia mentioned the interior of Soveriegn frightening her, the guys on the Derelict had their memories altered, like both guys remembering the same wedding and having no idea which of them actually experiened it etc). If you're out cold, that can't happen, and as I mentioned, Shepard being fully aware of indoctrination they'd probably notice when something like that happened and get away.

As for why Shepard was left for 2 days without being experimented or killed, Kenson mentioned they wanted Shepard to witness the Reaper's coming. Throughout most of ME2 the Reapers want Shep intact. They tried to get Shep's body prior to Cerberus getting it, Harbinger repeatedly tells the Collectors to take Shep alive or with the body preserved, and in Arrival, Kenson is holding Shepard for the Reapers. We don't know whether there was something about Shepard they wanted or not. Suffice to say Arrival seems to have ended that as Harbinger is pretty fed up with Shepard at that point and is eager to see him die.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Almostfaceman wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Could argue that since they want Shepard unaltered:

Harbinger: "Preserve Shepard's body if possible"

They probably are intentionally not indoctrinating him and want to study him when this is all over.

They want to Indoctrinate him. I just was not set in stone. I think that what ever indoctrination he /she has will take effect in ME3.

Nope.  According to everything we know about indoctrination it takes weeks, not 2 days, for the process to work.  Shepard was not exposed long enough to the reaper device to be indoctrinated.

I wouldn't be suprised if its revealed while Shepard was captured for those two days that he was implanted with something that either makes it easier for indoctrinated or allows him to be controled directly latter in the game.

[jasonsantanna]

If you think back through out the series of games and books , they give small hints of why he does not sub come to it , 1st with the beacon on Eden prime , Liara points out the you must be incredibly strong willed to be able to receive the message from the beacon, 2nd with Liara's mother she describes the process on how it works , its a sudden whisper always in your head , he has not been near or with a reaper or artifact long enough to have the process take effect , 3rd Tim mentions that Shep is something special , he bested a reaper and even with the odds against him keeps trying, it was hinted that Saren was indoctrinated but took along time for it to happen to him , that was why he had the salarian captives being tested on , to find out how long the process is and could it be fought off , because he himself was strong willed.
Its what makes Shep great his fight, will power and perseverance to over come an obstacle, TIM also displays these same qualities ( ME: Evolution).

[FlyinElk212]

dreman9999 wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

3- Shepard's unique and no longer vulnerable to indoctrination. Which is why Harby wants Shep's body so much.

This. Harbinger wants to examine what makes Shepard so different from everyone who's vulnerable to indoctrination. From there, he wants to correct it so no one can escape indoctrination in the future.

It properly explains two plot points that aren't really detailed by Bioware, while giving Shepard a true purpose to the story again instead of just "that guy that blows s*** up".

Not true at all. It takes time to be indicinated. Sheperd is not immune, just  that it started but did not finish. They just going to us it more in ME3.

So does indoctrination take a full period of time to take effect? Short spurts from time to time is ineffective?

That makes indoctrination rather useless, if you ask me. Things that indoctrinate usually need other subjects to do its bidding. Therefore, if anyone knows about indoctrination, simply run away from it. Done, you're immune to it.

I've always thought of Indoctrination as a lingering effect, sort of like the ring in Lord of the Rings- wear it once, and you'll always have it somewhere in your mind. I've never viewed it as a long-term process. Is there a codex or story point proving this?

[Mass_Shepard]

Maybe it will be part of ME3 plotline where shepard will struggle getting indoctrinated

[Death of Seph]

Here is my take on it, in ME I remember it saying somewhere that the amount of time being indoctinated affected the usefullness of the subject. Saren and liara's mother were slowly indoctinated over a long period of time, as a result they were able to function indipendantly of sov and even believe that they were still in control. The other end of the spectrum is speedy indoctination, the result of this is essentially a husk, no mind and lots of drool. I think that harby wants shep to be indoctrinated on board a reaper. No chance of escape and no interuptions. The end result is an indoctrinated idol, the galaxy will see its hero marching willingly under the reaper banner. If they wanted another mindless husk... well they have legions of those and wouldn't be so bothered with shep