27 réponses à ce sujet

[Nik Reaper]

  Hello , I wanted to add counterspelling as a global override so there would be no need to edit every module and campaign, and I mostly succeeded by using the modified dalog.tlk, contextmanu.xml and the gui_ei_counterspell script found http://nwvault.ign.c...&comment_page=6 here.
The problem is that only the main (the first) PC leader in the grupe seems to be able to go in to counter spell mode (wich works for him), the other members also have the right click on target option but it seems to do nothing.

void main()
{
    object oTarget = GetPlayerCurrentTarget(OBJECT_SELF);
    ActionCounterSpell(oTarget);
}

This is the script that the gui runs when using counter spell, but I don't see why it wouldn't work for party members other than the leader.
If anyone knows the answer, please share it

[painofdungeoneternal]

Seems like what you have should work, might want to try an assign command to the actual party member to see if that does better.

I would not enable that counterspelling, it basically has all the bugs from nwn1 in it unfixed, in addition to whatever problems added by the nwn2 development-and it is an early version way prior to 1.69 even. Since it was unreleased, it is assured to have lots of bugs and issues regardless. Even when we had it in NWN1, you had to be careful to ensure it did not keep running after you died, did not subtract spells properly, and did not even try to do all the things done in PNP counterspelling which made it a bit of a win button. That was one of the buggiest features of NWN1, far worse than most of the NWN2 bugs so far.

I implemented counterspelling on my PW, which should work, but it's a lot of code and the like since its using a completely reworked spell code to get around various bugs. It follows PNP rules to the letter, which includes spellcraft checks, accounting for perception, quickened spells, dispels doing the proper rolls, and ending properly when you start casting a spell yourself, and it has a button on the hotbar, as well as context menu items to enter the mode. Adds nice flavor, requires winning lots of checks to be effective.

Latest iteration of code is in CSL Library

[Nik Reaper]

Thanks for the reply, but although it is a 100% success for countering it seems to reduce the number of spells as it should, and doesn't work with no spells readied, + although this is a d20 game, it's so far from it's PnP version that the question isn't authenticity but game balance, and if it uses a type of dispel per counter than it's mostly balanced.
In any case, congrats on recreating a new system for it, I'm looking for an override that is accessible in every mod with no direct editing and compiling every time, so can your script be used directly through the contextmanu and a custom tlk file?

[painofdungeoneternal]

yes, works single player and mp, with kaedrins, it's mainly a spells.2da swap, even runs prior to spellhook at this point so that can be left as is. I have a LOT of bug fixes to things, spell resist, mantles, dispels, practiced caster level, and on and on, and i am using quite a few events for the various fixes. You should see the AOE bugs lol. I renamed all my spells to ensure there are no conflicts with any other content and to allow installing via 2da changes, but the spells could be renamed to their original names and the original spells.2da could be used - no idea why you'd want to do that as that file has numerous issues itself. Also added quite a few new spells as well.

Yes the NWN1 seemed to work as well sometimes, it's a buggy mess, trust me on that and you are using that NWN1 code. I've not tried it, but there is a reason it was not put in game and you have to mod things to re-enable it. From what i remember it keeps going like the energizer bunny once it gets going regardless of what you are doing, i'd say you definitely are on your own because it's entirely engine and you cannot really fix anything. You also will have to correct the counter spells fields which were not updated for nwn2 in spells.2da.

Note i run a action server, i am not judging things on PNP purity. However the rules are not automatic if you have dispel, its a dispel roll, to be automatic you have to have the proper counter spell and it cannot be quickened. As such any low level sorceror can shut down almost any high level caster/warlock while his party kills him. This greatly imbalances things to favor a sorceror over other classes since they can use metamagic/dispels on the fly. Counterspell was pretty much banned or resulted in constant complaints of abuse back in NWN1.

[Nik Reaper]

Interesting, though let's look at it like this, in most modules how many times have you come upon an enemy you even wanted to counter spell, let alone needed to counter, not to mention that most hard opponents are creatures using spell-like abilities that can not be countered, and also , let's look at an lvl 10 sorcerer , he takes dispel and lesser dispel, he has a max of 12+charisma bonus modified dispels per day, sure , that is enough to shut down one caster, at the cost of so many spells , now lets look at NWN2 SoZ, at the temple at the end there are so many casters , and you can counter only one at a time, that this number would boil down to nothing quite fast while you do no damage, and what if your not a caster without prepared spells? do you really see someone running around loaded with dispells ? . Granted that if one loads with dispell prepared for a fight against one strong opponent caster class enemy he would shut it down for 5-6 rounds before running out of dispells , but you wouldn't be doing anything else.. so it's more of level/combat design question, that is if the designer knew that you might try to do that , and he made your attempt to do that harder adding extras to the fight... But yes I'm still not sure how it works, if you can counter lvl 9 spells with lesser dispell, that is a bit unbalanced, but heck , again a question of balance...
On the other hand, to use all of you'r creations just download http://dl.dropbox.co...LLibrary9-9.zip , the hak and tlk, and unzip in the override and rename, and it has spell resistance and counterspell activated?

Modifié par Nik Reaper, 31 mars 2011 - 08:32 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

never used it like that, but basically it just uses modified spell scripts, you'd have to put the spells.2da where it can be accessed. ( separate download )

[Nik Reaper]

So, if I just wanted counterspelling , spell resistance workaround , and well, I don't mind the new spells, in the form of an override , which of the folder and files would I need to use? and inside spells.2da all the spell scripts are rerouted so no need for renaming?
You know this could get much more popular if it was more plug and play , just dump it in the override and it works. You made it as source code for servers right?, but it has single player potential and well let's face it... most of us aren't c++ educated , and just love plug and play .

[painofdungeoneternal]

It is plug and play really. Try it. I just have not spent time in SP modules to see what issues those create, but the design of it should work as is with very few minor changes. If you just use a portion, well it's in folders so just put the folders that make sense, there are ones for spells, feats, etc. I have been hinting for a long time that this could easily be done, but it really requires someone who is focused on SP to take a look at it. If i have to do it myself, well it will be when i have a hankering to play the OC, SOZ and MOTB myself i'll implement that ( and see about kaldors many changes which i'd want to use as well )

Some things like chat require a module change to add an event, but then those are not really required in SP, and likely would need to have the module actually support languages to make it worthwhile. Might be able to do those with GUI. I imagine the k* event scripts would have to be compiled to get everything working in SP but kaedrin is doing that now.

You mainly need to figure out the 2da's needed, spells.2da, vfx_persistent.2da, feats.2da probably if you want the feats kaedrin added, and i put the counterspelling feat in there. The icons, vfx, and other contents from the haks are needed to really make it polished, and for the new spells. I also added counterspelling feats to the different classes so it's done like the real devs did and not as some quick hak.

Nothing i have done requires a MP module, no mysql or database required, and i use the campaign DB and test everything in SP prior to posting on my module. Some things require setting scripts on the module, and it's being worked on with a SP module right now ( project M by binary who does HCR ). The fact it's working in MP just means the scripts are more robust, it's a lot better when testing to have the person you are attacking with a given spell being another human tester, you see a lot more issues than you do in just SP.

If the other coders used this library instead of rolling their own, they'd find their code would just work on both SP and MP modules without a lot of hassle, and it would be a lot easier to merge different projects together, and they'd spend more time creating new things instead of reinventing some string parsing function.

Any modules who use this can add a lot of new features easily, it's got support for energy substitution, and quite a few features from the spellcasting framework, kaedrins, the PRC and other projects. It's NOT just a loose compilation with things haphazardly thrown together, i rewrite anything so it's polished and refactor everything so it works in a single tight system.

I am also working on a way to merge content from different sources more easily by end users and perhaps eventually work as a universal installer which allows them to choose features desired by just checking boxes.

It also is still in development as a rewritten DMFI, which has features for both SP and MP. ( SP gives you tools to edit your character, so you'd not need a training module. ) Once i finish that and my languages, i will be focusing more on making it plug and play. Right now it's mainly for developers and those who are more advanced. I am and have always been trying to make it known this is usable by everyone really. I document what i do at the citadel as i go, and eventually installation instructions, how to's and all that will be done, but right now it's a moving target and not aimed at less advanced users.

[Nik Reaper]

Well, I definitely applaud your commitment to this, even after all these years, and seeing that NWN2 never got the popularity and devotion NWN1 got... mostly because of the bugs, the new toolset and there lack of commitment to the source material.. , and I'll spend some time to dig around this material trying out what can work as an pure override with what, hopefully a combination will emerge, and if it does I'll send you the info, just so you know and possibly post that as an easy to use plugin , because right now it's not but it could be.

P.S. : Seeing where new games are going these days, such as dragon age where low budget, amateurish to mid level community addons stick out like a sore tum at least for not having a quality voice over, NWN2 still seems like the only good option for community creations, I just hope that you get to the streamlining phase before we need to plug stuff in our heads to play .

[painofdungeoneternal]

Yeah if you do so, just post it on the vault under your name. It's supposed to be community stuff anyway. Lot of why it's taking me so long is that it's mainly just me doing all this. I am getting to the point where i want to set up a SVN pretty soon so anyone can commit changes.

Ideally you can post it so i can just drop in that entire set of folders and it just works, that way as i update there are no syncing issues, or need to recompile. If there are things you notice i can revamp those as well so it's working universally.

[Nik Reaper]

Ok, I'll get on it, and I'll contact you with results and questions when I compile a small list of them.

[painofdungeoneternal]

You might want to get on IRC too, all the devs are on there who matter, real good place to ask simple questions and get quick answers, and not repeat mistakes others already have answers for.

[Nik Reaper]

Hm, it seems there is a need for a custom dialog.tlk as some spells , a lot of custom spells, have no icon or have ether no text description or text lines from the OC game, Whats inside DEX.tlk,? the tlk editor doesn't seem to open it and placing it or not doesn't seem to make a difference. I know it's advised to add new .tlk files to make changes rather than change dialog.tlk , but I used other override packages that had dialog.tlk in them, placed in override and worked fine.
Or I could be wrong.... , but this is one whale of code and interconnections and as you say you tested every part of it to working condition and now it's a question of connecting the parts into something that the game loads as default, but I don't have enough knowledge of what goes where and how when it comes to tlk files and exactly what and from where all the default information is read, and your scripts are more of a transplantation surgery than mere surgical modifications I did up till now X) .

[painofdungeoneternal]

Yes this is a  project aimed at making NWN3 via community changes, to fix bugs the developers could not or would not fix, and to allow new features which are just not possible. As such it's not just minor errors like rpgplayer1 was attacking, it's actually attacking the root issues directly which is why its taking so much longer to finish. It's more like creating a new game than just trying to fix the old, but doing it in a way so it just works like it did before as well just without the bugs.

dex.tlk is a custom tlk, it's required to use the custom values, if no custom.tlk is set it uses dialog.tlk instead which i am attaching. Not sure why your editor is not opening but those are often wonky, it should be a correctly formatted tlk file, and it does work in game - i've compared what it creates to developer provided tlk's and it matches.

Using custom tlks prevents conflicts, and allows me to set strings without messing up what you are doing in SP. Basically it allows me to do things without causing issues/problems in other areas, and is basically good form, not doing so just causes major issues as it makes things overwrite other areas since only one dialog.tlk from one author is usable at a time. Folks would be pretty upset if playing on a PW changed all their classes and game rules after they finish, and before ADL a lot of PW's did that. Doing things how you are looking at should only be done by players to add new classes, spells and other things for their own use across all modules and should not be done by module makers or PW's.

Icons i keep in this hak, you'd have to use nwn2packer to extract which is on the vault
icons

Merged dialog.TLK

Copy dialog.tlk into root of player folder.

Put everything else in override. The icon hak, extract, put in a folder and put into override. Same for all haks really. 2da's put in override. About the only issue with the dialog.tlk, beyond its only compatible with kaedrins, is that the 2da's are targeting a custom.tlk, so if you play a module that uses a custom.tlk it will not show the text. Should work fine for the OC however, and changing the values in the 2da's to non custom ones would fix this so it starts working across the board ( in my neverworker it's a checkbox to toggle things from custom and not ).

To see how things should work when it's all setup correction you can log onto dungeon eternal x under action. It will automatically download the haks required. Since i mainly set up things for the PW and have not tested things in SP it's entirely likely that i've not linked something or other.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 04 avril 2011 - 06:13 .

[Nik Reaper]

Well that did the trick with missing icons and text, though some spells seem to do nothing, I'll dig through scripts to see what the conditions for them to work are (wall of stone seems a great spell but it get's cast and no wall), but it seems that spell resistance still is a one shot deal with the state it's in now (all overrides in the override folder including icons, dialog.tlk in the root dex.tlk in the tlk folder) , and what is needed to gain the counter spell feat, or is it a script that needs to be added in the module?

[painofdungeoneternal]

Might be needing placeables.2da and nytir's bck. Pretty sure the blueprint is in the downloads.

Was going to get a custom model for that, but just used a wall in my toolset as a placeholder in the meantime, probably can just adjust the blueprint so it does not need nytirs. A few of the spells i am in mid development on, or just entering testing phase. The wall spells have the potential to disrupt a modules story or plot as well so care should be taken in using those.

Counterspell is added to those classes that get it via a feat. Need to make sure that feat is in feats.2da and there is a script in pc loaded that is adding that to a play which does not have it, or it's in my various cls_bfeat*.2da's, which basically means there are two ways it's getting added. I try to implement things properly via feats when possible. You probably can also just give yourself the feat via cheat command and see it work.

[Nik Reaper]

Thanks for the support provided, I'll continue to test it out tomorrow. With some tweaks, minor edits , and possibly editing the dialog.tlk or the appropriate file or even the feat.2da so that counterspell is added automatically , remove some of the more module specific spells or modify so that they have a more general purpose, and it will be a general overhaul override that implements everything , and not to get too much ahead of my self, but I think that the idea of a uniform, global and modular development could start if more player demanded such systems in all modes of play, SP and MP, from where this would be the base. I never really understood why there never was a CEP for NWN2 , but I still hope for one, if someone doesn't release a newer better DnD PC game in the near future... and no NWN MMORPG doesn't count .

[painofdungeoneternal]

CEP is pretty bad if you are not doing what everyone else is doing.

In NWN1 when it was finally removed from dex1 the players found it a lot more stable. It was not really all about quality, but more about trying to get everything, good or bad, to work together. NWN2 started with a philosophy more like project Q of trying to make sure everything is pro level and tested. If we did what is done in CEP, well with almost no monsters and items compared to that we'd easily exceed 6 gigs not counting the nude patches. That amount of gigabytes would really limit who can use things to those with broadband and who are not paying by the meg.

This entirely ignores the issue that content creators got buried in it, and lost all credit for their hard work which actually reduced the amount of total content on the vault significantly. If this happened in NWN2, well just imagine hellfire throwing up his hands and leaving. Any thing done must be done with the consent and approval of the content authors, and provide a means to ensure they receive proper credit at all times, links to help players vote for their content, etc.

We need things which enable builders to do what they want, and some loosely shared systems, but we don't want anything to become dogmatic, it's all optional soas to ensure if they want to do something completely outside the box of faerun it's not an issue. I want to be able to provide a new player a way to join my pw without needing more than a gig of content, while at the same time i want that same player to be able to go on another pw with 8 gigs of content after going on mine, and only needing to download 7 gigs since that other pw uses the same files for things we share in common. The autodownloader makes this possible.

I have been working on projects that allow the community to do things like they did with CEP but without the flaws of CEP. CEP was great for NWN1, but this community is capable of so much more and something like that would limit things far more than it would improve them. And we already have a lot of PWs and SP modules sharing the same content to reduce the total downloading needed.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 04 avril 2011 - 08:20 .

[Nik Reaper]

Well, most people are broad band now-a days so size isn't really the issue it used to be, even right now I would download a 6gb big community patch that made it so that every module has counter spelling, a working spell resistance, all available item skins and models and support structures to make it all work, and most mod makers used that. I agree that CEP for NWN1 was somewhat sloppy, but modules built with it to me seamed to be nicely varied and interesting as people didn't need creativity to create content but creativity to create a story and interesting scenes with the rich variety that they had available at a click away, and sure people that didn't find what they needed still created and added it extra. I support a CEP like creation because it sets a standard, usualy a higher one than what you would get by walking alone, and still some make even better work walking alone but not that many, and this perticular work is something I would like to see implamented, well everywhere, as the original base of NWN2 is so very buggy and unfinished.

As I was never an usable content creator I don't really know the authorship struggle that goes there, but as a consumer , and well let's face it most other people , I don't really ask how many baby seals were slaughtered to make the mittens, but sure I prefer that the whole process is fear. Also you seem to undervalue the power of convenience, creating a CEP like patch leads to it's further development and through it's use comes refinement, I really don't know, but how many servers and SP modules uses the full or at least most functions of this Library ? As I play a lot of SP , I'd say non so far of those I played, I don't play MP so I can't really tell, if it's a lot than I don't see why SP has not caught up.

At this point I guess you feel like I'd like to distill , enlarge, bottle it and ship your and others work as an mass produced made in china product, and in a way it's true, it lessens the work, creativity and the effort made to create it, but thanks to this process most of us now have television, cars and most things that were standardized to general usage even if it did cut a part of it's potential in the process.
That is of course not to say that you shouldn't pursue the max potential product you can create, but as a side project please release that which you know to be usable and let's see what comes of it..
Well, that's how I see things, though I never work under the assumption that I'm totally right, and feel free to tell me if you, and how, disagree while keeping my perspective in mind.

PS. I'm not trying to be disrespectful or offensive, just honest to my prespective (if by showing that I'm I bad person, I probably am... ).

Modifié par Nik Reaper, 04 avril 2011 - 09:20 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

No that is not really true on bandwidth, awful lot of folks we'd lose. In the USA that is more true, but there are plenty in america who would not like this, ( the guy who moderates the forums as a big example ), a lot of folks in europe and other countries and some of the major developers and DM's. Not even getting into the folks on laptops which is increasing. It's a very big issue which should not be ignored even if it's not an issue for you personally, i only know about it because i keep my ears open and i know those who care about this are a sizable number of people.

The idea of a CEP has been discussed before, and even started, but it's just not going to happen without universal adoption and a lot of community effort, and the basic premise of a set of content like that leaves me and quite a few other authors out of the loop from the get go since i cannot make my PW adopt it, and the autodownloader and other tools allow us to do things better and easier. However me, other PW's, SP authors, are working together on making things work together, it's just not in a single be everything package since by it's nature it would preclude us from working together. Awful lot of what happens is based on who actually does the work.

The added ease it would provide, well just get the haks the various ADL content, which are organized by vault project, and you got something which does everything you are looking for convenience wise, actually even more so if you are a PW, but allows you to choose which things you actually want to use. This is not really a project, but more of an idea on how we should work together, and how content creators should provide content so it can be used as is on the vault.

Using my monster pack as an example, some use all the haks, some use just the RWS haks, some use my 2da and no haks', some use the haks and don't use my 2da at all. They are free to do so, and this allows those who have trouble setting things up to use it as is - this has helps a lot of module authors who just could not get things working, and it also allows those on the cutting edge to just use the 100-200 meg haks to reduce the end users need to repeatedly download the same thing. Different authors have different needs which this addresses, and the end users basically get better quality, less crashing due to my fixing a lot of details, and can just skip downloading the hak's if they already have them.

NWN2 just has different problems than NWN1 did, and taking a solution to issues in NWN1 and transplanting it to NWN2 just is not helpful. Anything like that needs to address the problems NWN2 has which are completely different, the Autodownloader basically makes such a system not needed, bigger file sizes make it far more important that more modules and worlds share the same haks even if they use vastly different 2da's and blueprints, and we need something where you can just use whatever percentage you feel comfortable with. And we need something which is inclusive of the entire community and not something which favors PWs or SP, or roleplay, or adult, or whatever your niche might be.

[painofdungeoneternal]

It would be very helpful, if you went into IRC and discussed things there, a much bigger part of the community is there, most of the major developers, and quite a few from even NWN1 and a number of players pop in there too. Instructions are on the main forum thread in a sticky.

You'd get a wider perspective on things, and as you develop things and have questions you will be able to collaborate with those who know a lot more about things than you do. I personally don't see how people can develop things without spending some time in the IRC channel, especially when you are tackling something which is difficult, and frankly the reason so many well known authors are in that channel has to do more with the fact that collaborating in the channel really helps you produce content.

[Nik Reaper]

I now see much of your point, but I myself can't get myself to agree to it all the way, without an wide encompassing single main pack , there can be no set standard, and features like counterspell, SR, wings, teleporting and who knows what else is out there will not become easily accessible content to everyone.

The good thing about a big pack is that it needs to be downloaded only once , and after that just updated. When I say not easily accessible, well... it's relatively easily added, sometimes just open the module and add a hack, sometimes just add a erf with scripts and recompile and save, yes even if it's usually that simple it bugs the hell out of me, and simple as it is it still sends people to the boards asking how to add wings or A to X module, it's not so much a complicated process as it shows the seams, and well it puts off a lot of people. Also the thing I'm most concerned is the base functionality of the original functions, that well originally don't work, and as you expanded on those I don't see why not go all the way, and make all that is usually used, or what could usually be used, be accessible , + it would reduce new module sizes if they used hacks and content that is incorporated in the package.

I totally support the planed creation of inter compatible systems and parts even if they aren't packed together, but as stated that means that planing must be made to add all the features available one would want that the author didn't include, ei. my char has wings and I want to play a module that didn't count on characters could have wings, it's not breaking the module setting, story but he didn't think of it at the time, he didn't add counter spelling because it may have been complicated for him, the examples go on, it's like adding havoc physics to the game that didn't have it before, sure it changes things to an extent, but it blends in the background once you count on it.



Well, that's just about the bundle concept, but more importantly the main issue here, and the original one, the creation of seamless easy to install systems like what I would like to do to this one, just extract in the override and it works and it's compatible with most other things popularly used. As I understand you too are speaking about a systematization and standardization of scripting, even if you don't want to bundle all compatible works together, and that is a great goal. My personal goal in this instance is to create a system that will be present in all the things I play from now and is seamlessly compatible with all coming modules, and except bruto size of the system, (probably around 1.5Gb or larger) I really see no down side to it. If you approve it can be public (as none of it is mine) , if not just I will be having fun with it.

I'll do more testing tomorrow, and see if classes.2da or feats.2da can easily add counter spell feat to caster classes on the first level, but I must lay down now .
Good night, present dreams and scripting. (it's past dark here)

[painofdungeoneternal]

I have released all my stuff to be freely used and built upon, and released as folks see fit.

I would prefer if you do release things, for you to work with the existing standards, haks, etc. as that is already gaining momentum and traction in the community. While i totally understand the idea of doing something like the CEP, without having a team of skilled people doing it, and widespread adoption, it's pointless. The current system is designed to sidestep the flaws of the CEP, leverage the autodownloader for PW's, and still be of use to SP authors.

The real value is in that everyone is working together in the same direction, while still able to add in new content while the shared stuff does not require re-downloading over and over. Things like just having a big thing that just works is the result of a lot of work, and the end result of what the community is doing will achieve that.

There is a lot more cooperation in NWN2's community, lot more discussion, and using vault content does not involve a lot of conflicts, and you generally can just move rows over as needed if 2 projects use the same 2da.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 05 avril 2011 - 01:10 .

[Nik Reaper]

Hi, ok I'm on the www.nwn2source.net/irc , and will probably leave it on most of the time.

Call me blind but in the downloads (once unzipped) on the http://nwcitadel.for...read.php?t=1786 I haven't found feats.2da or a custom placeables.2da also where should I find counter spell feat id number?, also how is persistent spell resistance from items set in function?

[painofdungeoneternal]

they are in the 2da hak you downloaded along with spells. Here is the current beta of that -> http://dl.dropbox.co...SL2daPrelim.zip but that has tome of battle turned on which i am still reworking. feats.2da and spells.2da are in there. Just get the cls_bfeat*.2da files for the casters and it should start working.

look in _hkSpell.nss for the hkresistspell function. It looks at the item properties using the technique reeron developed that everyone is now using. I actually have merged this code with the AI since the AI is basically doing the same work.