454 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKnave69]

nicethugbert wrote...
Contact a military person and tell them that battle is less tactical because of waves of enemies, especially the ones that get behind your pretty little lines and chokepoints.  Video tape the look on his/her face as you say that and post it on youtube.  I want to laugh and rec it up.

Waves of enemies, especially them tricky little bastards that get around your well laid plans, means that you have to reposition.  In other words, you most definitely have to position, a lot, many times, not less positioning, but more.  In other words not less tactics, but more tactics.  Not less, but MOAR, lots MOAR.  DA2 is MOAR tactical than the rest of the entire genre combined, including the Oh Most Holy BG.

I'm an ex-military guy, and strategy and tactics don't work exactly the way you're describing it.  When we plan battlefield tactics, we generally consider things like interlocking fields of fire, using cover to advantage, avenues of approach and choke points, both natural (defilades, narrow approach, etc.) and manufactured (blockades, mine fields, etc.).

Generally, there is some advanced warning of enemy approach, both initial and reserve.  They don't materialize "inside the wire," as it were, during the middle of combat.

Constant repositioning, unless you're on the offense, is a sign of poor tactical planning and execution.  Look at it this way:  If I am constantly shifting my heavy weapons or fire support, I'm busy moving and not engaging the enemy.  I'm not exploiting weaknesses in the enemy's attack and counter attacking.  Again, if my heavy support units are constantly reacting to unanticipated events there are two problems:  I am receiving poor intelligence and I am going to have unacceptable and/or unnecessary losses, both of which are "NO-GO."

On another note:  This is a GAME.  For ENTERTAINMENT.  To compare it with the tragedy of real combat with real people is at the least ignorant, and offensive.  If you don't know what you're talking about, the best advice I can tell you is don't speak.

Modifié par TheKnave69, 01 avril 2011 - 10:21 .

[ofish]

Overall I have to say I agree with most of what the Rock Paper Shotgun article said, however I liked Aveline, Varric, and Merrill's characters.

[Horus Blackheart]

it's refreshing to see that someone saw the problem baced on real exp instead of being an armchair general props to you TheKnave69 The 'tactical' implementation just plain failed imho. Why? I I suspect it was due to trying to please everyone. Alot of the time i'd get crammed in a corner because of the small area and that had nothing to do with my tactical choices it just happened in spite of them. granted no battle plan survives contact with the enemy, however telaporting waves don't allow you to take stalk and adjust. when you pause and issue orders agenst say a mage, when you un pause .the mage telaports and your plan gos to hell. so then the tactical situation brakes down, and your left to twitch responses as your only recourse. That to me screams design fail. Sorry devs but rather than thinking like a general and fighting like a spa tan (bad ref anyway as Spartans never fought like frothing madmen on a combat high) you are reduced to going argh hulk smash!!!

[Dagiz]

Horus Blackheart wrote...

it's refreshing to see that someone saw the problem baced on real exp instead of being an armchair general props to you TheKnave69 The 'tactical' implementation just plain failed imho. Why? I I suspect it was due to trying to please everyone. Alot of the time i'd get crammed in a corner because of the small area and that had nothing to do with my tactical choices it just happened in spite of them. granted no battle plan survives contact with the enemy, however telaporting waves don't allow you to take stalk and adjust. when you pause and issue orders agenst say a mage, when you un pause .the mage telaports and your plan gos to hell. so then the tactical situation brakes down, and your left to twitch responses as your only recourse. That to me screams design fail. Sorry devs but rather than thinking like a general and fighting like a spa tan (bad ref anyway as Spartans never fought like frothing madmen on a combat high) you are reduced to going argh hulk smash!!!

Um I  think you missed his final point.

On another note:  This is a GAME.  For ENTERTAINMENT.  To compare it with the tragedy of real combat with real people is at the least ignorant, and offensive.  If you don't know what you're talking about, the best advice I can tell you is don't speak.

as far as what you are saying...TURN THE  GAME  TO  NIGHTMARE AND  ALL  AI  OFF and try that exact line of thinking and see where it gets you.  I tried it the first fight...didn't work.  Now is it implemented in  a total 100% coherent manner?    No there are issues, but it is not as dumbed down as people make it.  Dumbed down combat for these types of games is NWN where you could SOLO everything.  In KoTOR you could do the same.  In BG your "tactics" were simple.  Fire off AoE spells, pick off as many with archers and than wade in with the heavy hitters.  There was not that much thinking.  

I am stil confused as to what the hell people talk about when concerning "tactics" in these games. 

Modifié par Dagiz, 01 avril 2011 - 11:33 .

[Horus Blackheart]

No I got his point I just dont find telaporting waves engaging, chalaging or entertaining its lazy design simple as that.

[Mavkiel]

Yep they had many ways to go for enemy mages, they picked the lazy route. Where are the enemies using arcane armor? Rock armor?(those would have increased their chances at surviving) Or repulse, paralysis runes? Instead its spam unique blood magic spells and teleport.

[Horus Blackheart]

I agree Mavkiel . I get that some people like the game combat design but when the only defence is "OMG your playing it wrong" that is a design failing.

Edit I did not mean to imply i hate all aspects of the game so i reworded my thoughts.

Modifié par Horus Blackheart, 01 avril 2011 - 11:57 .

[Sidney]

TheKnave69 wrote...

Generally, there is some advanced warning of enemy approach, both initial and reserve.  They don't materialize "inside the wire," as it were, during the middle of combat.

Constant repositioning, unless you're on the offense, is a sign of poor tactical planning and execution.

On the first part you are right but that is an argument vs a type of wave - the drops from the sky kind not the coming down the hallways kinds. The latter make sense and represent exactly what I might expect in an assault on a postion. I would expect some sort of reaction from the defenders to my presence and not merely sitting in situ waiting to be massacred.

As for repositioning...what?  Movement is surely a part of a defense and in particular a force that is as grossly outnumbered as you are in most fightds better be heavily fortified (you aren't ) or moving to deal with threats in detail. You can always spot amateur tacticians who defend a spot on the map by digging in all around that spot insead of moving to control, counter and threaten an advance.

Aside from that quibble, the waves are give a better feel in some fights and a gawd-awful feel to others.

[Sidney]

randallman wrote...
Well, irrespective of how many times they 'told' us that DA2 would not be a sequel, it's CALLED DRAGON AGE 2...  As a result, we expect a sequel...  Many of us simply didn't read the comments from the dev team for various reasons including but not limited to not wanting to spoil the game/story, personal time constraints, etc...  we expected a sequel since it was called a sequel.

BG2 was a sequel to BG1 and I'd argue that losing the "clearing the black" open world freedom of BG1 is a bigger change than anything in DAO to DA2. I mean I thought it was beyond lame when I was teleported to the Troll Castle instead of walking there - ah to be young and dumb again. I want change from game to game otherwise you are doing the Madden Roster Pack Update 2011 style of game deployment.

[Horus Blackheart]

The point I and others are trying to make is that waves that just drop in and telaport around with impunity don't fit the setting or the lore that was established.

Edit not to mention its lazy and uninspired.

Modifié par Horus Blackheart, 02 avril 2011 - 01:43 .

[nicethugbert]

randallman wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Maybe it's because archeology is a hobby of mine, or maybe it's because I've spent to much time with ivory tower crazies who go spend their summers in Turkey digging up old ruins, but I had no problem with the idea of needing money to finance an expedition like the one Bartrand planned. Going to need food and other suplies that are going to survive the trip, people or animals to carry them, and if animals you need food for them too and people to handle them. Equipment to dig if needed. It's darn expensive to finance something like this in the real world. There's a reason why archeologists and antropologists are always looking for grant money.

I can't remember at the moment but it's either Bartrand or Varric that makes the point that the target is a week below the surface. That kind of time and distance alone means you're going to be hauling a lot of stuff to survive, add to that guards to deal with darkspawn and other vermin you're going to find in the deep roads and 50 sovereigns is a bargain price.

Yes, but why is my Hawke even compelled to bother with a deep roads expedition?  There's no driving reason to do so besides the desire to make money...  What if my Hawke character isn't driven by capitistic gains?   Why am I bothering to front 50sov for an expedition with a potentially questionable ROI?

Because the story is not written by you and it is not your Hawke.  It is a pre-written character in a pre-written story where you do get some choice in his personality, but only some.

If you thought you were going to have anything other than this in DA2 then you mis-read the tea leaves.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 02 avril 2011 - 01:47 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

randallman wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

The lead designer said the article was well written, he didn't say it was a good article.  Keep in mind The Lead Designer makes fantasy games for a living.

Not for long if they keep turning out like DA2 did...

--Randall

[Horus Blackheart]

Even with in a fraimed naritive the progagonist had a freedom to act. all that happens is the deeds are being recounted later thats great. whare DA2 strips away any sense of engagement Is it seems to forget that during a timefraime you are ment to have influnce and shape events telling the why of how the events went down. Being lead by the nose is counter intuitiive to what was intended i think.

For all hawkes implyed influnce he rarly has any chance to express his will or shape much of anything. the end game is proof of this.
champ pick my side
um i dont want to pick a side your all nuts

I DEMAND you pick a side and it better be mine
uhhh ok then
(dam it)

thats the fundamental flaw with the naritive implamentation as i see it.

[nicethugbert]

Galad22 wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

No Story = Galad22 Does't Like The Story.  He special that way.

I am sorry but good stories usually needs an overall plotline. There is no such thing in DA2.

In first act you have no real reason to do anything,

Second act ends to what feel like an games ending. And quest that somehow relate to that fake ending take what around 1 hour of your time tops, rest are used in usual useless sidequest.

And third act. Same thing around hour of gameplay in anyway relates to plotline in that act. Not to mention that this ending is much worse than in act 2. You can choose side but it have no effect who you have to fight and you can't choose to stay neutral.

So yes I believe I can argue just fine that there was no real overal plotline in this game.

Yes, there is a plot line.  Which we can't give away here.  Suffice it to say that the world is falling apart.  But, just as the customer ordered, you do nothing about it.  We no longer want to play Save-The-World games, remember?  Instead, you focus your time on your family and crime fighting.  It's all very Batman.  It's Batman being Batman while the world swallows Gotham alive.  Batman just keeps trying to save Gotham while it goes down the world's gullet, all the while ignoring the gullet that is swallowing Gotham.  More I cannot say.

[nicethugbert]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

randallman wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

The lead designer said the article was well written, he didn't say it was a good article.  Keep in mind The Lead Designer makes fantasy games for a living.

Not for long if they keep turning out like DA2 did...

--Randall

There are easier to please customers and DA2 is a step up for many people considering what they normally play.  Snap on that.

[nicethugbert]

neppakyo wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...
Aww, c'mon, let us in on your Super Duper Game Nomenclature System.  Pwwwwwwwwweeeeezzzzzzzzzz

So, were you born an ass.hole, or did you have to work really hard at it? Just curious.

I was working really hard at it until I took your free internet correspondeance course.  Thanks prof!  You da bestest and the mostest!  You mostestbestest!

Modifié par nicethugbert, 02 avril 2011 - 02:17 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

nicethugbert wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

randallman wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

The lead designer said the article was well written, he didn't say it was a good article.  Keep in mind The Lead Designer makes fantasy games for a living.

Not for long if they keep turning out like DA2 did...

--Randall

There are easier to please customers and DA2 is a step up for many people considering what they normally play.  Snap on that.

The thing is they've alienated both.

[nicethugbert]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

It's pointless to start the story at Lothering.

I disagree. Starting at Lothering even in your family house and just the backyard (where you start fleeing from) could have allowed you some connection to your family and allowed a great chance to interact with your mother and discuss Kirkwall and dad and mages and templars etc.

They also should have followed this with having the PC choose which of Bethany or Carver gets fed to the Ogre and which one lives. These two changes would have had a massive impact on the family plot lines of the game and I think not taken a huge amount of developer time. But since they re-used every darn cave/house/warehouse maybe that is asking way too much to develop a house in Lothering with a backyard and a small quest to go spider hunting before the panic sets in.

Um, it's family.  What's this about not being connected?  Are you telling me that being homeless with your family, with your mom, and hunted down by dark spawn, mom being hunted down by dark spawn, mom, the old lady stumbling, falling behind, getting tired as dark spawn try to kill her, was not captivating enough for you?  And you want to choose which one of your siblings you feed to the ogre?  WTF is wrong with you???????????????

Modifié par nicethugbert, 02 avril 2011 - 02:16 .

[nicethugbert]

JaegerBane wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...
The game is not going to fail just because it starts with them on the run instead of them fighting their way out of Lothering<snip>

He didn't say the game failed for this. Try to keep up, hugbert, it's not like he was using particularly big words.

I know, which indicates how compelling the suggestion is.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

nicethugbert wrote...

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

It's pointless to start the story at Lothering.

I disagree. Starting at Lothering even in your family house and just the backyard (where you start fleeing from) could have allowed you some connection to your family and allowed a great chance to interact with your mother and discuss Kirkwall and dad and mages and templars etc.

They also should have followed this with having the PC choose which of Bethany or Carver gets fed to the Ogre and which one lives. These two changes would have had a massive impact on the family plot lines of the game and I think not taken a huge amount of developer time. But since they re-used every darn cave/house/warehouse maybe that is asking way too much to develop a house in Lothering with a backyard and a small quest to go spider hunting before the panic sets in.

Um, it's family.  What's this about not being connected?  Are you telling me that being homeless with your family, with your mom, and hunted down by dark spawn, mom being hunted down by dark spawn, mom, the old lady stumbling, falling behind, getting tired as dark spawn try to kill her, was not captivating enough for you?  And you want to choose which one of your siblings you feed to the orge?  WTF is wrong with you???????????????

You do get to choose which siblings die by choosing your role. Taking them into the Deep Road without a Grey Warden is also a way you can affect the outcome. Seriously, I felt no connection to the family. It's a filler, like Fable. Maybe if we were given a chance to develop a relationship with them we would have cared. Nope, by the time the first sibling is offed you had all of 2 minutes of face time with them and it only goes down hill from there. People feel starting in Lothering would have helped you build a repertoire with them before the darkspawn came.

[nicethugbert]

Galad22 wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

The scene where you go to Bartrand for work and your sibling tells you we need work soon, that didn't clue you in?  So, that Examine Me in Gamlen's hovel where Hawke says, paraphrasing, "This is no place for mother to live in" didn't explain anything to you?  The part where Hawke earns his fortune, and Bat Cave, through his skill of arms, or staff, making a name for himself as a problem solver, doesn't explain anything to you?

You're one of those people who wants to save the world, aren't you?

There are games with plots that doesn't involve you saving the world. See Vampire:the masquarade and Planescape Torment.

In those games most things you do have some relevance to what you are trying to do, and those plots are well written.

You can't say neither from DA2 plot.

And no I have no interest saving the world that much, but story must be interesting and well made. If you can't do that without plot involving saving the world, then don't do it.

There is no law that says your actions have to have relevance or success.  You can make a perfectly good story about irrelevence or non-success.  You don't have to enjoy it.  But it can be done.

[Horus Blackheart]

I agree The family concept was great the implamentation was apallingly shallow. 'you liked the family?, yey' now lets spend all our time finding ways to limit interaction with them all in the name of emotnal impact. Somehow i bet it looked amazing on paper. In game not so much.

[nicethugbert]

Khayness wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

The scene where you go to Bartrand for work and your sibling tells you we need work soon, that didn't clue you in?  So, that Examine Me in Gamlen's hovel where Hawke says, paraphrasing, "This is no place for mother to live in" didn't explain anything to you?  The part where Hawke earns his fortune, and Bat Cave, through his skill of arms, or staff, making a name for himself as a problem solver, doesn't explain anything to you?

You're one of those people who wants to save the world, aren't you?

There is still no goal to strive forward to through the game until the end. The Acts are disjointed, with very minor contiunity. The game feels like a miniseries, with 3 episodes.

You don't have to save the world in order to know what the hell are you supposed to do. PS:T managed to do that.

There doesn't have to be a goal let alone one spelled out for you.  A goaless story is just as valid as one with a goal.  You don't have to enjoy them.  Some people do.  Some people don't.  But, they can be well crafted and valid stories nontheless.  The story of a cluster**** in three acts by .....

[errant_knight]

This was an excellent anaylsis, I think. While it doesn't cover all the problems I had with the game, it covers many of them, and I'm in complete agreement with most of what was said. About the only think I have any real disagreement with was his (to me) overly harsh take on the voice acting for Aveline. I also think he missed some glaring problems, such as the lack of companion customization. But, overall, very well thought out.

[TheKnave69]

Sidney wrote...

As for repositioning...what?  Movement is surely a part of a defense and in particular a force that is as grossly outnumbered as you are in most fightds better be heavily fortified (you aren't ) or moving to deal with threats in detail. You can always spot amateur tacticians who defend a spot on the map by digging in all around that spot insead of moving to control, counter and threaten an advance.

Aside from that quibble, the waves are give a better feel in some fights and a gawd-awful feel to others.

I agree that some repositioning and movement are part of an active defense.  That's why we have QRF elements.  We didn't shift our mortar platoon, or the heavy weapons squads unless we absolutely had to, or unless we were moving.  And we always tried to avoid having the support element engage in CQB.  Even when we were performing offensive ops, the support units remained behind the assault force.

Our policy in a fire support platoon was that if we were in one place for more than four hours, we dug in.  This way, if we ever had to advance in the opposite direction, we had semi-hard emplacements arlready established as our fall backs.  If we couldn't move back to a fortified position, then we would improvise....

Okay, I'll get off my soap box now.  Let's talk game.

I wasn't fond of the waves.  There was little thought involved, for me, to the combat.  Once I got rid of the first wave, the second wave dropped right on my mages (it seemed almost every time), making my melee fighters run clear across the screen to pull agro.  This made it more of a:
CLICK
run
run
"Aw crap my mage went down"
run
run
CLICK
att--
"WTF, where'd the assassin go? Never mind, he hosed my other mage."      
Forehead, meet keyboard.  Keyboard, meet forehead.

Modifié par TheKnave69, 02 avril 2011 - 02:38 .