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S&S Experiment: Early Elemental Setup


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#1
IN1

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Have you pray'd to-night, Desdemona?
Othello, V.2

1. General concept.

Those who frequent these forums, are probably familiar by now with my concept of elemental setup. In short, for those who are not: a non-mage character takes advantage of mage-oriented +X% elemental damage gear by sacrificing at least two of the slots (Ring of the Ferryman and Robes of Cleanliness) to boost his damage output using elemental weapons (preferably, fire or electricity-based). Technically, it means damage calculation will use an additional multiplier (for example, Damage_Fire_Bonus_Factor) on top of any other bonuses, both additive and multiplicative.

Rogues benefit greatly from going elemental, since their enormous Damage_Critical_Bonus_Factor gets effectively multiplied by a very significant value they can achieve in elemental damage bonus factor. Warriors, on the other hand, are considerably weaker in terms of critical damage factor, but have a whole arsenal of great damage boosting talents at their disposal (Blood Frenzy/Veneer of Calm, Sacrificial Frenzy, Cleave, Adrenaline, to name the major ones).

2. S&S experiment.

The main issue with top-quality elemental builds is they are only possible late game (Act III). The idea behind the experiment was to build a very early game elemental S&S warrior. Why S&S and not 2H? Three reasons, actually:

(a) While it's true 2H has early access to Anderfel Cleaver as opposed to S&S' Desdemona's Blade, it is important to remember Acts I & II are literally dominated by Qunari, Shades, Mercenaries and Darkspawn, who are all weak to nature. Anderfel is a superior option during certain side-quests, sure enough, but in principle, I find Desdemona far more viable. You also have a great freebie auto-scaling alt weapon (Fadeshear) vs fire-immunes, while Anderfel build will have a tough time vs those Qunari without a respec. 

(B) I wanted my build to take full advantage of animation speed bonuses, and going 2H is hardly the optimal route to achieve that.

© Everyone and their grandmother plays 2H. Seriously, Youtube is full of beefy 2H Reavers auto-attacking the hell out of poor enemies.

3. Custom rules.

No mabari this time, but I use a party of buff/debuff/RoF bots (tactics disabled, set on Passive, Hold Position -- if possible, behind closed doors), mainly to test Animation_Speed_Modifier limitations and DISORIENT CCCs that appear extremely unpopular.

I also decided to exploit newest RoF findings by SuicidalBaby, Akodin, et al. instead of just resorting to runscript addmoney. The good news in this respect: it is possible to buy all the Tomes/Elixirs (except the Arcane ones) and the Fallen Star (albeit very late into the Act), if you take Friends in Low Places route and let Dougal invest in the expedition.

4. The build: Act I.

The idea is to get Desdemona's, coat it with Deathroot Toxin, then enchant it with Nature + Frost runes. Even with all +attribute gear, some investment into Mag and Wil must be made (not too much, about 2 levels worth of attribute points) to get Rune-Covered Gloves and Boots of the Elder. This (or, actually, half of this) is quite beneficial for the first build spec: Berserker.
Key talents: Bravery, Barrage, Control, Cleave, Destroyer.
Key party buffs: Haste, Thumbs Up. 

In case you wonder why Bravery is mentioned first. Technically, it is very similar to DAO talent bearing the same name, only the numerical values of bonuses are different:
       int nEnemies = Max(0,GetArraySize(GetCreaturesInMeleeRing(oAttacker,0.0, 359.99f,TRUE,0))-2);
       fCriticalHitModifier +=  nEnemies * 3.5f;

In other words, your critical chance and damage vs multiple opponents in melee distance will be extremely high. The idea is to complement this with as high attack animation speed as possible, and, of course, with such staples as Cleave and Destroyer. Note I also prefer Control to Might at this stage of character development to make my criticals somewhat consistent.

4a. Short demonstration video.

Shepherding Wolves, final fight.

I was actually asked several times how to beat this one solo. I replied that it is a long, but easy fight for a solo archer, yet I can see why mages and, especially, warriors should consider this one difficult. Well, it's not really difficult, as you can see (granted, it's quasi-solo, but still -- closer to solo than to party formation).

In my opinion, one of the most interesting parts of playing S&S is precise targeting. It's a new mechanic for me, in fact. Rogues are single-target, so it's out of question; 2H warriors have such a huge arc (especially with Giant's Reach), that no aiming judgment is required. With one-handers, you need to aim correctly to be able to hit 2-3 opponents simultaneously, and that does involve some non-trivial decisions sometimes.

I show my gear in the video. I'm very late into Act I here (you can judge by my level), only Deep Roads Expedition remains.

5. The build: Act II.

Desdemona is an amazingly long-term investment. This weapon holds its own, and more than that, until the very end of Act II, provided you enchant it with 2 Runes of Striking (+8% critical chance). Surprisingly enough, I have not found either Fade's Fury or Windsong Axe overly useful. Both perform reasonably well, but you can stick with your trusty Fadeshear as alt weapon.

In general, your gear priorities during Act II should be, in order of preference: (1) +X% nature dmg; (2) +X% crit chance; (3) +X% attack speed.

The second spec should be, of course, Reaver. Also, invest talent points into upgraded Barrage (+10s duration), and either upgraded Cleave or upgraded Adrenalin -- whatever suits your playstyle better. Personally, I find Adrenalin quite tricky and time-consuming to use, but it's hard to say no to the (potentially) infinitely stacking buff. 

New key talents: Blood Frenzy, Sacrificial Frenzy, Fervor.

5a. Short demonstration video.

Demands of the Qun, pre-Arishok fight.

Just to show the amazing potential of Striking-enchanted Desdemona vs higher level Qunari.

6. The build: Act III.

Things get pretty simple now. Recommended gear: Sataareth, Volcanic Shield, Dura's Blue Flame, Robes of Cleanliness, Ring of the Ferryman, Tevinter Enchanter's Cap, The Magister's Ring, Gauntlets [High Dragon]. With Reaver spec bonus, that accounts for +93% fire damage.

The only talent I can recommend at this stage is Assail. I also suggest replacing Control with Might as you main modal ability at this point. You can invest into the Sword & Shield tree, if you are so inclined, but it's hardly necessary, unless you cannot live without CCCs: you will kill everything with auto-attacks in a matter of seconds, anyway.

Later into the Act, you might want to grab Glandivalis to deal with fire-immune creatures, but it's not mandatory. You should be fine with Fadeshear vs those Rage and Pride Demons.

6a. Short demonstration video

Pride Unbound, Hybris fight.

This video demonstrates how ridiculously powerful a Sataareth S&S setup is at +105-135% animation speed. It also shows how to use Adrenaline properly: it's not a pre-buff, it's a mid-attack buff. It does not cancel attack animation, the delay is due to nominal cooldown only. Practically, it means that if you use the pause function (and you really should), it's a semi-permanent +64% damage buff. However, if you decide to play with no pauses, this talent is, by and large, inefficient and not worth upgrading.

Modifié par IN1, 02 avril 2011 - 06:37 .


#2
Jman5

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Interesting. That's way more damage than I was doing with my physical damage SnS on Hard. I might have to make a new character to try out certain aspects of this build you laid out.

#3
IN1

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Take into account Qunari are weak to nature and there is a lot of them clustered, so Bravery really shines here. That, and the fact elemental weapons bypass armor, of course. You won't see such damage numbers normally, but the mere fact Desdemona is elemental makes it way superior to any physical dmg Act I weapon, especially on higher difficulties.

#4
rabbitchannel

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Impressive damage. I haven't played a S&S character yet but I've been setting up Aveline as a damage sponge. I put as much str needed to get the best shield, put a bit into will, then pumped the rest into con. Given my experience with DA:O I gave up setting S&S characters as damage dealers and just used them as meat shields.

#5
SuicidalBaby

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I have been attempting to push Aveline in this direction. did you take anything from the shield tree or just vangard/bravery

#6
IN1

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Well, some of the most efficient builds/setups in complex RPGs are counter-intuitive, based on meta-gaming and non-apparent talent/gear synergies.

#7
IN1

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SuicidialBaby wrote...

I have been attempting to push Aveline in this direction. did you take anything from the shield tree or just vangard/bravery


No, nothing from the Shield tree, but that is going to change during Act II. Mostly because I want to test DISORIENT -> Scatter in different scenarios.

Aveline should do fine in this role, but needless to say, Hawke does the job much better.

Your RoF guide is priceless, by the way :)

#8
SuicidalBaby

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your data is sexy too

#9
Atmosfear3

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Disorient -> Scatter is absolutely crazy. Aveline was killing groups of up to 6+ at a time as long as they were within Scatter range.

#10
DA Trap Star

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That is awesome, I have to try a elemental set up

#11
SuicidalBaby

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did you find any trinkets w/ nature damage in your search?

#12
Atmosfear3

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SuicidialBaby wrote...

did you find any trinkets w/ nature damage in your search?


As far as I know:

Poisonwood Locket + 41 Attack | + 12% Nature damage | + 340 Nature resistance Bonny Lem’s Wares (Disused Passage) Act 2

Belt of the Primevals +4% Fire damage | +4% Cold damage | +4% Electricity damage |+4% Nature damageChest (Bartrand’s Mansion, Family Matter) Act 2

The Jade Serpent +33 Attack | +5% Nature damage | +278 Nature resistance Dragon (Sundermount, A New Path) Act 3

There is the Sylvanwood Ring as well but I'm pretty sure thats Merrill only.

#13
Jman5

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SuicidialBaby wrote...

did you find any trinkets w/ nature damage in your search?

I searched all the vendors in act 1, and I didn't see a single nature trinket for sale.

By the way, what weapon would you reccomend for act 2? Is there a good 1-hander element that works well against the type of enemy you face?
Edit: I just checked all the act 2 vendors and I didn't see a single elemental 1hander for sale. :(

Modifié par Jman5, 01 avril 2011 - 02:18 .


#14
IN1

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In fact, I plan to use Desdemona during the whole Act II. Sounds a bit radical, I know, but this Act is so littered with Qunari and Shades... I think Poisonwood Locket, Belt of the Primevals, DISORIENT combos with Scatter and Reaver dmg bonuses will boost my damage output adequately.
That said, I will definitely give Fade's Fury a go. It's not elemental per se, but it has spirit splash damage over 3m added and 2 Rune slots, so... I'm curious to see if it's worth it. I'll post the results here, anyway.

#15
Jman5

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Wow, a 32 dps weapon compared to say a 51 dps physical one? You really think it will work better even with all those +nature modifiers?

Modifié par Jman5, 01 avril 2011 - 02:48 .


#16
Waltzingbear

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Very nice.
You could've killed that entire group in less than 5 seconds just by paralyzing them or using Shield Bash or a rogue's Rush to push the ones in the front backwards, casting Fatigue Fog to DISORIENT them all and using Assault while Cleave is active.

Don't know how all of these abilities come up with with your available skill points at that time though.

Modifié par Waltzingbear, 01 avril 2011 - 02:57 .


#17
IN1

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Waltzingbear wrote...

Very nice.
You could've killed that entire group in less than 5 seconds just by paralyzing them or using Shield Bash or a rogue's Rush to push the ones in the front backwards, casting Fatigue Fog to DISORIENT them all and using Assault while Cleave is active.

Don't know how all of these abilities come up with with your available skill points at that time though.


1. I'm sure I could have. That's not the point, though :) It's not a how-to-beat-enemy-X guide, it's more like preliminary experimental build notes.

2. As stated, I don't use companions actively. They are there in buff/debuff/RoF-bots role (occasionally, I'll DISORIENT during Acts II and III to see how Scatter performs, but that's about it). And anyway, Dis. Fog is only available at 13+.

#18
IN1

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Jman5 wrote...

Wow, a 32 dps weapon compared to say a 51 dps physical one? You really think it will work better even with all those +nature modifiers?


Don't forget Qunari typically have a high AR and are weak to nature. If Desdemona will cease to be viable, I'll switch to Fade's Fury. Windsong Axe is out of question, sadly, as I'm no masochist (Qunari are immune to electricity).

#19
Jman5

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I'm interested to know how it will end up comparing with one of the higher end act 2 weapons damage-wise.

#20
Altima Darkspells

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IN1 wrote...

Jman5 wrote...

Wow, a 32 dps weapon compared to say a 51 dps physical one? You really think it will work better even with all those +nature modifiers?


Don't forget Qunari typically have a high AR and are weak to nature. If Desdemona will cease to be viable, I'll switch to Fade's Fury. Windsong Axe is out of question, sadly, as I'm no masochist (Qunari are immune to electricity).


Well, I have a naggling feeling you'll be switching to a higher base damage weapon some time in Act 2.  After all, doesn't base damage directly affect how much damage your talents (like scatter) do?

On a side note, shouldn't you be going with Dougal every playthrough?  In the end, the player gains the same amount of gold (none, overall), but if you go with Dougal, you have the opportunity to get a bit more experience and coin by murdering him and his little ambush.  Unless I'm missing something.

#21
SuicidalBaby

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Waltzingbear wrote...

Very nice.
You could've killed that entire group in less than 5 seconds just by paralyzing them or using Shield Bash or a rogue's Rush to push the ones in the front backwards, casting Fatigue Fog to DISORIENT them all and using Assault while Cleave is active.

Don't know how all of these abilities come up with with your available skill points at that time though.


the only disorient skill available at that level is a single target 4 point investment pinning shot. Confuse is viable but only at 50% chance.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 01 avril 2011 - 11:54 .


#22
IN1

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Well, I have a naggling feeling you'll be switching to a higher base damage weapon some time in Act 2.  After all, doesn't base damage directly affect how much damage your talents (like scatter) do?

Of course, but since Qunari will take double damage from Desdemona and it will ignore their high AR, it would still outperform any Act II physical dmg 1H weapon. Don't forget Desdemona has 2 rune slots, and 2 Runes of Striking + Bravery + Control + Heroic Aura can really guarantee auto-crit in most scenarious, which, needless to say, is far more valuable than having a somewhat strange +11 electricity dmg bonus (Windsong looks like it's the best Act II 1H stat-wise, right?).

Sure enough, Act II is not all Qunari/Shades/Desire Demons, etc., so I will need to think about alt weapon anyway.

Modifié par IN1, 01 avril 2011 - 10:43 .


#23
AKOdin

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SuicidialBaby wrote...

did you find any trinkets w/ nature damage in your search?


In Act 1, you can run across nature boosting belts (I've found them at 4 and 5% boosts)- either the Qunari belt type (imma something) or the Dalish Belt increases nature damage. I can't recall for sure which one.

@IN1: Do you recall what your rough total coin from Act 1 was? Mine was 130ish. I'll be following this with interest, as warriors in DA 2 are the least interesting class to me. The idea of an elemental run makes it more interesting.

#24
IN1

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Yes, I wrote it down. My total is 142.5 g. I'm that much cooler than you! :)

In fact, since I know exactly what to spend on this time + my companions are bots that don't need any investment (save +rune armor), this accounts for a small difference between our results.

#25
AKOdin

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Heh. I wasn't trying to imply there was a competition. I was curious because so many of the drops in my experience were random, and it is nice to have other reference points.

Your run sounded fairly optimized, whereas mine was ongoing while stuff was getting figured out- which will make for a better example when people are kvetching about how there is no money in this game. :D

Modifié par AKOdin, 01 avril 2011 - 02:36 .