665 réponses à ce sujet

[Icy Magebane]

@Fieryeel:  All I'm going to say to that is

Just accept that it's a retcon... there's no way that defiled Ashes would hold any power.  There's no way that a Warden hell bent on killing Leliana would not confirm her death, even if that meant buring the corpse afterward.  It's not like they were in a hurry to leave the temple...   I just sometimes have to respond to the people who think there's any rational explanation for this.  There isn't one.  The writers have something in mind, and that's okay.  DG says that there is an explanation and that's fine too.  Whatever it is, I hope it's better than, "she used Feign Death..."  LOL...

Eh... so as not to sound entirely negative, I'm okay with the retcon, but call it what it is people.  The ones who so vehemently defend Leliana's resurrection with such paper-thin rationale are obviously those who did not kill her.  You therefore have no vested interest in this discussion other than to make your favorite character into something that she is not:  immortal and untouchable.  Well... DA2 proves that to be inaccurate, but without her popularity, she'd be just another corpse in the Warden's wake.  I'm not seeing anything so far that suggests she could have survived.  Unless Quentin was from Ferelden... lol...

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 04 avril 2011 - 02:08 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@Fieryeel:  All I'm going to say to that is

Just accept that it's a retcon... there's no way that defiled Ashes would hold any power.

Says who? The ashes themselves are nothing but a body thats been defiled and incenterated by fire.

Putting water on sand does not stop it from being sand.(That sounded Qunari-ish to me.)

Also how can you really know that it's a retcon? For all you know Gaider could have had this planned when they were writing the event into Origins a couple years ago. Gaider himself says they have a reason, and they just haven't revealed it yet. The fact that he wont tell means that its spoilerish.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 04 avril 2011 - 02:12 .

[TJPags]

Fieryeel wrote...

I dun understand why people don't get this point: There is no death move exception for ingame mechanic purposes, unless it is a scripted cutscene like Loghain's. You decapitating Leliana or Wynne never truly happened in canon. You taking them down IS canon, and they being dead or looking dead is canon too.

So why did Leliana survive?

1) The ashes healed her. It was never confirmed that desecrating the ashes would destroy them, or take away their healing power. It's also a fact that the ashes are a huge mystery, and the limits of their power has not been explored. Oghren too hinted there were more to the ashes than meets the eye.

2) She used Feign Death. Just because you didn't have her learn that skill doesn't mean she lacks it in canon. When I first saw Anders, he used Flame Blast, but he didn't have the skill in his ingame spell book. Why is it so unrealistic for Leliana, an extremely skilled bard who has probably slaughtered dozens to hundreds of foes to be able to trick you?

3) You knocked her out, or you left her for dead, unfortunately though, Leliana was stronger than you thought, and against all odds, survived the mountain and escaped.

I am not defending David Gaider here, but I do not deny that fact I absolutely adore Leliana, however, her survival is not completely impossible.

The fact that characters like Zevran stay dead after I killed him means that much of my choices do matter.

Nah, don't buy it.  My Wardens sure as heck knew how to kill someone when they wanted to.  None of this ashes, lyirum, feign death, only a flesh wound nonsense is going to cut it for me.  And I never even took the option to kill her.

They retconned it.  They're allowed to do so.  But as David Gaider said, we're allowed not to like it.

I'll wait for their explanation, but I will call it crap if that's what I think it is. 

Bottom line, shouldn't have been an option.

[WhiteKnyght]

TJPags wrote...

Fieryeel wrote...

I dun understand why people don't get this point: There is no death move exception for ingame mechanic purposes, unless it is a scripted cutscene like Loghain's. You decapitating Leliana or Wynne never truly happened in canon. You taking them down IS canon, and they being dead or looking dead is canon too.

So why did Leliana survive?

1) The ashes healed her. It was never confirmed that desecrating the ashes would destroy them, or take away their healing power. It's also a fact that the ashes are a huge mystery, and the limits of their power has not been explored. Oghren too hinted there were more to the ashes than meets the eye.

2) She used Feign Death. Just because you didn't have her learn that skill doesn't mean she lacks it in canon. When I first saw Anders, he used Flame Blast, but he didn't have the skill in his ingame spell book. Why is it so unrealistic for Leliana, an extremely skilled bard who has probably slaughtered dozens to hundreds of foes to be able to trick you?

3) You knocked her out, or you left her for dead, unfortunately though, Leliana was stronger than you thought, and against all odds, survived the mountain and escaped.

I am not defending David Gaider here, but I do not deny that fact I absolutely adore Leliana, however, her survival is not completely impossible.

The fact that characters like Zevran stay dead after I killed him means that much of my choices do matter.

Nah, don't buy it.  My Wardens sure as heck knew how to kill someone when they wanted to.  None of this ashes, lyirum, feign death, only a flesh wound nonsense is going to cut it for me.  And I never even took the option to kill her.

They retconned it.  They're allowed to do so.  But as David Gaider said, we're allowed not to like it.

I'll wait for their explanation, but I will call it crap if that's what I think it is. 

Bottom line, shouldn't have been an option.

And why is that? I never heard anybody complaining about Flemeth's resurrection. It just means there is more to Leliana than they want us to know right now.

[Icy Magebane]

Um... last time I checked, Flemeth was either an abomination, demon, old god, or something else that is highly mystical. She's several centuries old, at least, and can inhabit the bodies of other hosts, willing or not.

Leliana is... a bard.

Huge difference, bad comparison.

[TJPags]

Flemeth's resurrection? You mean when she pops out of the amulet on top of Sundermount?

Leliana ain't a mage. Nor is she a 1000 year old . . .well, whatever Flemeth is. They've taken steps to make us understand Flemeth is more than she seems, starting with shortly after we "kill" her.

Leliana is a flesh and bone bard, so far as we know now, no different from Marjolaine. Killed her, too. Or did I?

[WhiteKnyght]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Um... last time I checked, Flemeth was either an abomination, demon, old god, or something else that is highly mystical. She's several centuries old, at least, and can inhabit the bodies of other hosts, willing or not.

Leliana is... a bard.

Huge difference, bad comparison.

Morrigan's words were that Flemeth is not a blood mage, abomination, or even human. It was all an act.

When you first met Leliana she a Sister, she revealed to be a bard, and who knows what else she is hiding.

[Khaldara]

Bottom line, people are over-opinionated self righteous individuals who will always find something insignificant to complain about regardless of the situation. The bottom line is that the only people allowed to criticize what "should" or "did" happen in a fictitious place are the people involved in its creation. The same holds for a novel, or a painting, only the artist involved is allowed with definite purpose to state what their intent was or what they feel they've created. You're right, you don't "have" to like it, but crying about something insignificant on the internet has been a proud and effective method for effecting change in human history, hasn't it?

Modifié par Khaldara, 04 avril 2011 - 02:19 .

[WhiteKnyght]

TJPags wrote...

Flemeth's resurrection? You mean when she pops out of the amulet on top of Sundermount?

Leliana ain't a mage. Nor is she a 1000 year old . . .well, whatever Flemeth is. They've taken steps to make us understand Flemeth is more than she seems, starting with shortly after we "kill" her.

Leliana is a flesh and bone bard, so far as we know now, no different from Marjolaine. Killed her, too. Or did I?

I'd like to point out that just because something appears to be something, doesn't mean that it is.

Loghain looked like a power mad usurper but The Stolen Throne and The Calling revealed there was more to it than that.

Alistair looked like a child Maric had produced in an adulterous affair with a servant girl. But The Calling heavily implies his mother was really an Elven mage named Fiona who was a Grey Warden.

And Wynne actually died saving Petra from a demon. But a spirit chose to possess her and revive her. Which also offers explanation into Anders and his Justice situation if either of them died in Awakening.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 04 avril 2011 - 02:25 .

[TJPags]

Khaldara wrote...

Bottom line, people are over-opinionated self righteous individuals who will always find something insignificant to complain about regardless of the situation. The bottom line is that the only people allowed to criticize what "should" or "did" happen in a fictitious place are the people involved in its creation. The same holds for a novel, or a painting, only the artist involved is allowed with definite purpose to state what their intent was or what they feel they've created. You're right, you don't "have" to like it, but crying about something insignificant on the internet has been a proud and effective method for effecting change in human history, hasn't it?

Wow, really?  Only the writer/painter/director can criticize their work?

Someone tell all those art critics, movie critics, book reviewers, car reviewers, game reviewers, etc., and tell them they're doing it wrong.

Might as well tell all those award shows and such they're doing it wrong too.

Sorry, no - the consumer is absolutely allowed to criticize a work.  The creator is free not to agree, or even not to listen.  But if I'm expected to read, play, or watch something, I'm expected to like it, no?  I'm also allowed to not like it.  And either way, I'm allowed to state my opinion.

[thebatmanreborn]

TJPags wrote...

Khaldara wrote...

Bottom line, people are over-opinionated self righteous individuals who will always find something insignificant to complain about regardless of the situation. The bottom line is that the only people allowed to criticize what "should" or "did" happen in a fictitious place are the people involved in its creation. The same holds for a novel, or a painting, only the artist involved is allowed with definite purpose to state what their intent was or what they feel they've created. You're right, you don't "have" to like it, but crying about something insignificant on the internet has been a proud and effective method for effecting change in human history, hasn't it?

Wow, really?  Only the writer/painter/director can criticize their work?

Someone tell all those art critics, movie critics, book reviewers, car reviewers, game reviewers, etc., and tell them they're doing it wrong.

Might as well tell all those award shows and such they're doing it wrong too.

Sorry, no - the consumer is absolutely allowed to criticize a work.  The creator is free not to agree, or even not to listen.  But if I'm expected to read, play, or watch something, I'm expected to like it, no?  I'm also allowed to not like it.  And either way, I'm allowed to state my opinion.

I have to agree.  Without criticism, the artist cannot grow.  The storyteller needs the audience equally as bad as they need a story to tell.  

[TJPags]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Flemeth's resurrection? You mean when she pops out of the amulet on top of Sundermount?

Leliana ain't a mage. Nor is she a 1000 year old . . .well, whatever Flemeth is. They've taken steps to make us understand Flemeth is more than she seems, starting with shortly after we "kill" her.

Leliana is a flesh and bone bard, so far as we know now, no different from Marjolaine. Killed her, too. Or did I?

I'd like to point out that just because something appears to be something, doesn't mean that it is.

Loghain looked like a power mad usurper but The Stolen Throne and The Calling revealed there was more to it than that.

Alistair looked like a child Maric had produced in an adulterous affair with a servant girl. But The Calling heavily implies his mother was really an Elven mage named Fiona who was a Grey Warden.

And Wynne actually died saving Petra from a demon. But a spirit chose to possess her and revive her. Which also offers explanation into Ander's and his Justice situation.

I read the Stolen Throne, and I disagree completely with your opinion of Loghain as depicted in that book.  He was as manipulative and self-absorbed there as he was presented in DAO.  Never read the Calling, as I could barely take reading TST, so don't care what it shows.

Leliana is never shown, or hinted, to be more than a human bard with no special powers.  She's not a mage, so the whole possession thing is farfetched.

Do they have an explanation for Leliana not dying?  I'm sure they do.  They haven't given it to us yet, which is fair.  Until then, I call it a retcon.  When I see the explanation, I'll either call it good, or call it crap.

[WhiteKnyght]

TJPags wrote...

Khaldara wrote...

Bottom line, people are over-opinionated self righteous individuals who will always find something insignificant to complain about regardless of the situation. The bottom line is that the only people allowed to criticize what "should" or "did" happen in a fictitious place are the people involved in its creation. The same holds for a novel, or a painting, only the artist involved is allowed with definite purpose to state what their intent was or what they feel they've created. You're right, you don't "have" to like it, but crying about something insignificant on the internet has been a proud and effective method for effecting change in human history, hasn't it?

Wow, really?  Only the writer/painter/director can criticize their work?

Someone tell all those art critics, movie critics, book reviewers, car reviewers, game reviewers, etc., and tell them they're doing it wrong.

Might as well tell all those award shows and such they're doing it wrong too.

Sorry, no - the consumer is absolutely allowed to criticize a work.  The creator is free not to agree, or even not to listen.  But if I'm expected to read, play, or watch something, I'm expected to like it, no?  I'm also allowed to not like it.  And either way, I'm allowed to state my opinion.

But criticism coming from someone who arguably doesn't know what they are talking about.......

The point is, much of Dragon Age and its world/lore is still unknown to us, thats a given. But you're ranting like you know everything and the writer's don't even though its their story and they've admitted they haven't revealed everything.

TJPags wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Flemeth's resurrection? You mean when she pops out of the amulet on top of Sundermount?

Leliana
ain't a mage. Nor is she a 1000 year old . . .well, whatever Flemeth
is. They've taken steps to make us understand Flemeth is more than she
seems, starting with shortly after we "kill" her.

Leliana is a flesh and bone bard, so far as we know now, no different from Marjolaine. Killed her, too. Or did I?

I'd like to point out that just because something appears to be something, doesn't mean that it is.

Loghain looked like a power mad usurper but The Stolen Throne and The Calling revealed there was more to it than that.

Alistair
looked like a child Maric had produced in an adulterous affair with a
servant girl. But The Calling heavily implies his mother was really an
Elven mage named Fiona who was a Grey Warden.

And Wynne actually
died saving Petra from a demon. But a spirit chose to possess her and
revive her. Which also offers explanation into Ander's and his Justice
situation.

I read the Stolen Throne, and I
disagree completely with your opinion of Loghain as depicted in that
book.  He was as manipulative and self-absorbed there as he was
presented in DAO.  Never read the Calling, as I could barely take
reading TST, so don't care what it shows.

Leliana is never
shown, or hinted, to be more than a human bard with no special powers. 
She's not a mage, so the whole possession thing is farfetched.

Do
they have an explanation for Leliana not dying?  I'm sure they do. 
They haven't given it to us yet, which is fair.  Until then, I call it
a retcon.  When I see the explanation, I'll either call it good, or
call it crap.

1. It's not an opinion its fact. Loghain promised Maric he would put Ferelden over any one man. The was a total ***hole yes, but he had reasons, albeit bad ones.

2. If you're openly ignoring story installments and the details they carry because you don't like them you destroy any credibility you claim to have.

3. And Awakening never depicted Anders as any more than a mage who wanted a life of freedom. Aiding the mages and Justice possessing a living host were brought up, but the two of them both rejected the ideas while in DAII they've apparently embraced them.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 04 avril 2011 - 02:35 .

[TJPags]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Khaldara wrote...

Bottom line, people are over-opinionated self righteous individuals who will always find something insignificant to complain about regardless of the situation. The bottom line is that the only people allowed to criticize what "should" or "did" happen in a fictitious place are the people involved in its creation. The same holds for a novel, or a painting, only the artist involved is allowed with definite purpose to state what their intent was or what they feel they've created. You're right, you don't "have" to like it, but crying about something insignificant on the internet has been a proud and effective method for effecting change in human history, hasn't it?

Wow, really?  Only the writer/painter/director can criticize their work?

Someone tell all those art critics, movie critics, book reviewers, car reviewers, game reviewers, etc., and tell them they're doing it wrong.

Might as well tell all those award shows and such they're doing it wrong too.

Sorry, no - the consumer is absolutely allowed to criticize a work.  The creator is free not to agree, or even not to listen.  But if I'm expected to read, play, or watch something, I'm expected to like it, no?  I'm also allowed to not like it.  And either way, I'm allowed to state my opinion.

But criticism coming from someone who arguably doesn't know what they are talking about.......

The point is, much of Dragon Age and its world/lore is still unknown to us, thats a given. But you're ranting like you know everything and the writer's don't even though its their story and they've admitted they haven't revealed everything.

I'm not sure if that was a bit of an insult or not.  I'll assume it wasn't meant as such.

I played DAO.  I played DAA.  Several times, for both.  I played GoA.  I played WH.  I played DA2.  I read TsT.  I post on and read these forums regularly.

I'd say I have about as much information as anyone not actively involved in creating this project has.  Which makes me as knowledgeable as you, whose opinion clearly is not the same as mine.  Which is perfectly fine, btw, I'm not here to say you're wrong.

What I'm saying - not ranting, saying - is that we have a flesh and blood person with no special powers, who is potentially killed by someone very good at killing.  An option created not by a private modder, or some bug, but by the game itself.  To make this person alive, with no explanation to date, seems like a bad retcon.  And that is my opinion.

[mesmerizedish]

TJPags wrote...

What I'm saying - not ranting, saying - is that we have a flesh and blood person with no special powers, who is potentially killed by someone very good at killing.  An option created not by a private modder, or some bug, but by the game itself.  To make this person alive, with no explanation to date, seems like a bad retcon.  And that is my opinion.

It's only a bad retcon until we hear the explanation. Then it's either... well, it could still be a bad retcon But it also might be a good retcon, or not a retcon at all.

[TJPags]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

TJPags wrote...

What I'm saying - not ranting, saying - is that we have a flesh and blood person with no special powers, who is potentially killed by someone very good at killing.  An option created not by a private modder, or some bug, but by the game itself.  To make this person alive, with no explanation to date, seems like a bad retcon.  And that is my opinion.

It's only a bad retcon until we hear the explanation. Then it's either... well, it could still be a bad retcon But it also might be a good retcon, or not a retcon at all.

Indeed.  Which has been my position all along.

@ Grey - your "fact" about Loghain is opinion.  Not fact.  Sorry to break that to you.

The Calling - as I understand the story - sheds no light on the discussion at hand.  So how is my refusal to read it relevant?  Yea, it's not.

As to Anders - again, not relevant.  But people can change their opinions in different circumstances.  That doesn't mean they suddenly gain magical powers.

[WhiteKnyght]

TJPags wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Khaldara wrote...

Bottom line, people are over-opinionated self righteous individuals who will always find something insignificant to complain about regardless of the situation. The bottom line is that the only people allowed to criticize what "should" or "did" happen in a fictitious place are the people involved in its creation. The same holds for a novel, or a painting, only the artist involved is allowed with definite purpose to state what their intent was or what they feel they've created. You're right, you don't "have" to like it, but crying about something insignificant on the internet has been a proud and effective method for effecting change in human history, hasn't it?

Wow, really?  Only the writer/painter/director can criticize their work?

Someone tell all those art critics, movie critics, book reviewers, car reviewers, game reviewers, etc., and tell them they're doing it wrong.

Might as well tell all those award shows and such they're doing it wrong too.

Sorry, no - the consumer is absolutely allowed to criticize a work.  The creator is free not to agree, or even not to listen.  But if I'm expected to read, play, or watch something, I'm expected to like it, no?  I'm also allowed to not like it.  And either way, I'm allowed to state my opinion.

But criticism coming from someone who arguably doesn't know what they are talking about.......

The point is, much of Dragon Age and its world/lore is still unknown to us, thats a given. But you're ranting like you know everything and the writer's don't even though its their story and they've admitted they haven't revealed everything.

I'm not sure if that was a bit of an insult or not.  I'll assume it wasn't meant as such.

I played DAO.  I played DAA.  Several times, for both.  I played GoA.  I played WH.  I played DA2.  I read TsT.  I post on and read these forums regularly.

I'd say I have about as much information as anyone not actively involved in creating this project has.  Which makes me as knowledgeable as you, whose opinion clearly is not the same as mine.  Which is perfectly fine, btw, I'm not here to say you're wrong.

What I'm saying - not ranting, saying - is that we have a flesh and blood person with no special powers, who is potentially killed by someone very good at killing.  An option created not by a private modder, or some bug, but by the game itself.  To make this person alive, with no explanation to date, seems like a bad retcon.  And that is my opinion.

Well saying "They shouldn't have done it", "That couldn't have happened", and "[Insert Character] is nothing more than [Insert Archetype]" are pretty good examples that you're ranting.

I don't claim to know everything, but I'm also not the one who is being closed minded and looking through tunnel vision. I'm exploring possibilities which are entirely possible.

As I said, in a world with magic, anything is possible. You not liking it does not make it impossible or unreasonable. Which is exactly how you're coming off.

[Fieryeel]

TJPags wrote...
What I'm saying - not ranting, saying - is that we have a flesh and blood person with no special powers, who is potentially killed by someone very good at killing.  An option created not by a private modder, or some bug, but by the game itself.  To make this person alive, with no explanation to date, seems like a bad retcon.  And that is my opinion.

Since when was Leliana a normal flesh and blood person?

She's easily one of the top ten strongest humans in DAO(but still behind Warden, Loghain, Morrigan, Howe etc) and a bard and trained assassin to add.

Is it really so inconcevable your warden might have failed to kill her? Did your warden check for her pulse? Stab her heart? Kick her body?

If this was a case of my Warden taking down Zevran already, slitting his throat upclose and STILL Zevran somehow returns, then yes, I would agree it's complete bull. But Leliana's survival is highly unlikely, but not impossible.

Modifié par Fieryeel, 04 avril 2011 - 02:48 .

[Icy Magebane]

The Warden would not have been tricked by Feign Death or left without knowing Leliana was dead. Don't you think a Warden who just killed a powerful bard would be worried about her coming back for revenge later? Give me one reason why he wouldn't confirm the kill before leaving the ruin.

[Merced652]

This thread is one giant facepalm of but but maybe she has supapowahs.

[Merced652]

Icy Magebane wrote...

The Warden would not have been tricked by Feign Death or left without knowing Leliana was dead. Don't you think a Warden who just killed a powerful bard would be worried about her coming back for revenge later? Give me one reason why he wouldn't confirm the kill before leaving the ruin.

No its entirely possible, i doubt Gaider and co have any qualms about negating however you chose to RP your warden in this sense. 

[TJPags]

Oh, so then it was an insult.  That's cool. 

Yea, so, anyway, don't recall saying anything couldn't have happened.  DId say they shouldn't have given us the option to kill a character that means so much to the story, and that they should have provided at least hints that killing her wouldn't work, as they did with Flemeth.  So they clearly know how to do that.  They didn't.  They're choice.

My choice is to call it shoddy writing.  Which, IMO, it is.  You're free to disagree, of course, and conjure any number of insane explanations for a blatant retcon.

And now, since this conversation is getting noplace, I'm done with you.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Ladies and gentlemen please. Leliana isn't a retcon... it was simply fixing you rmistake.

Honestly who would want to kill Leliana? =)

[Icy Magebane]

Merced652 wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

The Warden would not have been tricked by Feign Death or left without knowing Leliana was dead. Don't you think a Warden who just killed a powerful bard would be worried about her coming back for revenge later? Give me one reason why he wouldn't confirm the kill before leaving the ruin.

No its entirely possible, i doubt Gaider and co have any qualms about negating however you chose to RP your warden in this sense. 

That's all I'm trying to say.  Without intervention from the writers, Leliana died.  She doesn't have any special abilities that would have countered this, and unless the Warden has a stupid moment, she didn't have a chance to wake up later.  She died in the temple, and unless she then bonded with "the Guardian," she has no business walking around and seeking out anything.

Look, my only point here is that the option to kill Leliana was dismissed and I agree that it should not have been given in the first place.  I'm not saying the writers can't do what they want, or that they can't come up with a reasonable explanation (such as the Guardian) if they even want to bring it up again.  All I'm saying is that the facts, as we currently know them, do not add up.

[WhiteKnyght]

TJPags wrote...

@ Grey - your "fact" about Loghain is opinion.  Not fact.  Sorry to break that to you.

The Calling - as I understand the story - sheds no light on the discussion at hand.  So how is my refusal to read it relevant?  Yea, it's not.

As to Anders - again, not relevant.  But people can change their opinions in different circumstances.  That doesn't mean they suddenly gain magical powers.

1. The point is that Loghain made the promise. And that's arguably why he did what he did. Because he really believed the batte was a lost cause. he doesn't chang that explanation any after recruiting and reforming him. he openly admits he believes he made the right decision by pulling his men out. Whether it's right or wrong is another argument entirely.

2. Its relevant because you claim you don't care what happens in it and disregard it. For all you know the book could reveal something that directly answers one of your questions but you refuse to acknowledge it.

3. A person doesn't have to have magical abilities to have magic used on them or become possessed. The Stone Golem DLC shows a non mage child and her father able to be possessed by Kitty, a desire demon. And Wynne didn't get a say when she became possessed, she was dead. There were plenty of spirits in the Gauntlet that could have shown Leliana the same mercy that Wynne got from that Faith spirit.