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[TJPags]

Fieryeel wrote...

TJPags wrote...
What I'm saying - not ranting, saying - is that we have a flesh and blood person with no special powers, who is potentially killed by someone very good at killing.  An option created not by a private modder, or some bug, but by the game itself.  To make this person alive, with no explanation to date, seems like a bad retcon.  And that is my opinion.

Since when was Leliana a normal flesh and blood person?

She's easily one of the top ten strongest humans in DAO(but still behind Warden, Loghain, Morrigan, Howe etc) and a bard and trained assassin to add.

Is it really so inconcevable your warden might have failed to kill her? Did your warden check for her pulse? Stab her heart? Kick her body?

If this was a case of my Warden taking down Zevran already, slitting his throat upclose and STILL Zevran somehow returns, then yes, I would agree it's complete bull. But Leliana's survival is highly unlikely, but not impossible.

one of the 10 strongest humans in DAO?  Based on what?

A telented bard and assassin, I don't deny.  But then, Zev is a talented assassin.  So is his friend, what's his name.  Both of them can die.

Did my warden kick Howe's body?  Check for a pulse after I killed whats his name, the nut cult leader in Haven?  Did he stab Cauthrien in the heart?  Are all of them possibly alive as well?

Why is it okay for Leliana to not be dead, but for everyone else, dead is dead?

[Andronic0s]

The only part of the story in itself that I think didnt made sense was the Orsino fight if you side with the mages, it just feel forced, I had a diplomatic dialogue before the start where I tell Orsino there is no hope and he tells me that there is always hope as long as I'm with them or something along those lines, then 5 minutes later he does a 180 and starts despairing causing the death of all the remaining mages in the room, I do not understand his motivation in this particular part, why did he despired now and not earlier? nothing unexpected happened.

Modifié par Andronic0s, 04 avril 2011 - 03:08 .

[mesmerizedish]

Andronic0s wrote...

The only part of the story in itself that I think didnt made sense was the Orsino fight if you side with the mages, it just feel forced, I had a diplomatic dialogue before the start where I tell Orsino there is no hope and he tells me that there is always hope as long as I'm with them or something along those lines, then 5 minutes later he does a 180 and starts despairing causing the death of all the remaining mages in the room, I do not understand his motivation in this particular part, why did he despired now and not earlier? nothing unexpected happened.

I agree. The Orsino fight was really out of place.

[WhiteKnyght]

TJPags wrote...

Fieryeel wrote...

TJPags wrote...
What I'm saying - not ranting, saying - is that we have a flesh and blood person with no special powers, who is potentially killed by someone very good at killing.  An option created not by a private modder, or some bug, but by the game itself.  To make this person alive, with no explanation to date, seems like a bad retcon.  And that is my opinion.

Since when was Leliana a normal flesh and blood person?

She's easily one of the top ten strongest humans in DAO(but still behind Warden, Loghain, Morrigan, Howe etc) and a bard and trained assassin to add.

Is it really so inconcevable your warden might have failed to kill her? Did your warden check for her pulse? Stab her heart? Kick her body?

If this was a case of my Warden taking down Zevran already, slitting his throat upclose and STILL Zevran somehow returns, then yes, I would agree it's complete bull. But Leliana's survival is highly unlikely, but not impossible.

one of the 10 strongest humans in DAO?  Based on what?

A telented bard and assassin, I don't deny.  But then, Zev is a talented assassin.  So is his friend, what's his name.  Both of them can die.

Did my warden kick Howe's body?  Check for a pulse after I killed whats his name, the nut cult leader in Haven?  Did he stab Cauthrien in the heart?  Are all of them possibly alive as well?

Why is it okay for Leliana to not be dead, but for everyone else, dead is dead?

Nobody said they were permanently dead. But for now the writers don't seem to have any reason to want or need them alive, but they admit they do for Leliana. You just don't like it and are ranting like a child because they wont tell yet.

Also isn't it possible to do the decapitation finisher on Zevran during the crow Ambush where you recruit him?

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

TJPags wrote...

Oh, so then it was an insult.  That's cool. 

Yea, so, anyway, don't recall saying anything couldn't have happened.  DId say they shouldn't have given us the option to kill a character that means so much to the story, and that they should have provided at least hints that killing her wouldn't work, as they did with Flemeth.  So they clearly know how to do that.  They didn't.  They're choice.

My choice is to call it shoddy writing.  Which, IMO, it is.  You're free to disagree, of course, and conjure any number of insane explanations for a blatant retcon.

And now, since this conversation is getting noplace, I'm done with you.

they left wiggle room for her "coming back to life". for you to have any opinion  on whether it was good or bad when we have no knowledge is laughable.

[mesmerizedish]

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

they left wiggle room for her "coming back to life". for you to have any opinion  on whether it was good or bad when we have no knowledge is laughable.

Not really... that we have no knowledge is what makes it bad. We have a character who has apparently been brought back from the dead, with no explanation whatsoever. That can absolutely be said to be a bad retcon.

[stobie]

Andronic0s wrote...

The only part of the story in itself that I think didnt made sense was the Orsino fight if you side with the mages, it just feel forced, I had a diplomatic dialogue before the start where I tell Orsino there is no hope and he tells me that there is always hope as long as I'm with them or something along those lines, then 5 minutes later he does a 180 and starts despairing causing the death of all the remaining mages in the room, I do not understand his motivation in this particular part, why did he despired now and not earlier? nothing unexpected happened.

I agree - it felt unnatural, so to speak. I did understand that he was horrified by Anders's solution, that he couldn't face the battle to come. (not the immediate battle, but the long mage vs chantry war)   I would have found his suicide or defection more plausible than turning into a giant pus-filled *thing.*  Oh, THAT helped!!! Years of secret study for... that? Seriously?

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

TJPags wrote...

Fieryeel wrote...

I dun understand why people don't get this point: There is no death move exception for ingame mechanic purposes, unless it is a scripted cutscene like Loghain's. You decapitating Leliana or Wynne never truly happened in canon. You taking them down IS canon, and they being dead or looking dead is canon too.

So why did Leliana survive?

1) The ashes healed her. It was never confirmed that desecrating the ashes would destroy them, or take away their healing power. It's also a fact that the ashes are a huge mystery, and the limits of their power has not been explored. Oghren too hinted there were more to the ashes than meets the eye.

2) She used Feign Death. Just because you didn't have her learn that skill doesn't mean she lacks it in canon. When I first saw Anders, he used Flame Blast, but he didn't have the skill in his ingame spell book. Why is it so unrealistic for Leliana, an extremely skilled bard who has probably slaughtered dozens to hundreds of foes to be able to trick you?

3) You knocked her out, or you left her for dead, unfortunately though, Leliana was stronger than you thought, and against all odds, survived the mountain and escaped.

I am not defending David Gaider here, but I do not deny that fact I absolutely adore Leliana, however, her survival is not completely impossible.

The fact that characters like Zevran stay dead after I killed him means that much of my choices do matter.

Nah, don't buy it.  My Wardens sure as heck knew how to kill someone when they wanted to.  None of this ashes, lyirum, feign death, only a flesh wound nonsense is going to cut it for me.  And I never even took the option to kill her.

They retconned it.  They're allowed to do so.  But as David Gaider said, we're allowed not to like it.

I'll wait for their explanation, but I will call it crap if that's what I think it is. 

Bottom line, shouldn't have been an option.

so you say that you will wait to hear their explanation to have an opinion on leliana's presence but you are calling it a retcon now??? seems to be contradicting itself.

[TJPags]

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Oh, so then it was an insult.  That's cool. 

Yea, so, anyway, don't recall saying anything couldn't have happened.  DId say they shouldn't have given us the option to kill a character that means so much to the story, and that they should have provided at least hints that killing her wouldn't work, as they did with Flemeth.  So they clearly know how to do that.  They didn't.  They're choice.

My choice is to call it shoddy writing.  Which, IMO, it is.  You're free to disagree, of course, and conjure any number of insane explanations for a blatant retcon.

And now, since this conversation is getting noplace, I'm done with you.

they left wiggle room for her "coming back to life". for you to have any opinion  on whether it was good or bad when we have no knowledge is laughable.

What was the wiggle room?  The ashes, which I just rendered useless except for the pouch I take for Eamon?  Because that's why you take the puch first - after that, they're useless.

The lyrium?  Have we seen lyrium bring anyone else to life?

Why is it laughable to comment on what the devs chose to show us?  Am I supposed to withold all opinions until Bioware says, okay, we're done now?

[WhiteKnyght]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

they left wiggle room for her "coming back to life". for you to have any opinion  on whether it was good or bad when we have no knowledge is laughable.

Not really... that we have no knowledge is what makes it bad. We have a character who has apparently been brought back from the dead, with no explanation whatsoever. That can absolutely be said to be a bad retcon.

They said they have a reason, and did not say that they weren't going to say why. Automatically labeling it a bad retcon knowing this is jumping to a conclusion.

[TJPags]

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Fieryeel wrote...

I dun understand why people don't get this point: There is no death move exception for ingame mechanic purposes, unless it is a scripted cutscene like Loghain's. You decapitating Leliana or Wynne never truly happened in canon. You taking them down IS canon, and they being dead or looking dead is canon too.

So why did Leliana survive?

1) The ashes healed her. It was never confirmed that desecrating the ashes would destroy them, or take away their healing power. It's also a fact that the ashes are a huge mystery, and the limits of their power has not been explored. Oghren too hinted there were more to the ashes than meets the eye.

2) She used Feign Death. Just because you didn't have her learn that skill doesn't mean she lacks it in canon. When I first saw Anders, he used Flame Blast, but he didn't have the skill in his ingame spell book. Why is it so unrealistic for Leliana, an extremely skilled bard who has probably slaughtered dozens to hundreds of foes to be able to trick you?

3) You knocked her out, or you left her for dead, unfortunately though, Leliana was stronger than you thought, and against all odds, survived the mountain and escaped.

I am not defending David Gaider here, but I do not deny that fact I absolutely adore Leliana, however, her survival is not completely impossible.

The fact that characters like Zevran stay dead after I killed him means that much of my choices do matter.

Nah, don't buy it.  My Wardens sure as heck knew how to kill someone when they wanted to.  None of this ashes, lyirum, feign death, only a flesh wound nonsense is going to cut it for me.  And I never even took the option to kill her.

They retconned it.  They're allowed to do so.  But as David Gaider said, we're allowed not to like it.

I'll wait for their explanation, but I will call it crap if that's what I think it is. 

Bottom line, shouldn't have been an option.

so you say that you will wait to hear their explanation to have an opinion on leliana's presence but you are calling it a retcon now??? seems to be contradicting itself.

I say it is a retcon, until proven otherwise.  No contradiction.

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

they left wiggle room for her "coming back to life". for you to have any opinion  on whether it was good or bad when we have no knowledge is laughable.

Not really... that we have no knowledge is what makes it bad. We have a character who has apparently been brought back from the dead, with no explanation whatsoever. That can absolutely be said to be a bad retcon.

retcon only if we had definitive proof as to her being dead or that they changed something key in origins just to bring her back. given the circumstances of her "death' though their are a few possible explanantions for her coming back. the ashes or lyrium. those were both present and could have had an impact. or that the "maker" intervened. any of those could work and yet they are ignored because people refuse to see them as possibilities.

[Brockololly]

Fieryeel wrote..
Is it really so inconcevable your warden might have failed to kill her?

Decapitation generally means you're no longer among the living.

Fieryeel wrote..
Did your warden check for her pulse? Stab her heart? Kick her body?

The Warden very well might have looted her corpse to get back all her gear at which point she her headless corpse turned into a skeleton. So....yeah


Of course, the likely retcon is that when you decapitated Leliana at the Urn, her head flew up and into the Ashes, at which point it pulled a page out of John Carpenter's The Thing, sprouted legs, and after snorting some of the magical ashes, strolled on over and reattached itself to the body. Voila, Leliana 2.0! A wizard did it!


I never have my Wardens kill Leliana, but even so, I'd rather not have people miraculously coming back to life at the wave of a hand with only a meager explanation. DA always seemed like a fairly low magic setting where death had meaning and finality. I'm fine with the occassional resurrection however, if its given genuine plot significance (think Lady Stoneheart from Song of Ice and FIre, not Shepard in ME2). If resurrection occurs, it needs to be a big deal.

Modifié par Brockololly, 04 avril 2011 - 03:37 .

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

TJPags wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Oh, so then it was an insult.  That's cool. 

Yea, so, anyway, don't recall saying anything couldn't have happened.  DId say they shouldn't have given us the option to kill a character that means so much to the story, and that they should have provided at least hints that killing her wouldn't work, as they did with Flemeth.  So they clearly know how to do that.  They didn't.  They're choice.

My choice is to call it shoddy writing.  Which, IMO, it is.  You're free to disagree, of course, and conjure any number of insane explanations for a blatant retcon.

And now, since this conversation is getting noplace, I'm done with you.

they left wiggle room for her "coming back to life". for you to have any opinion  on whether it was good or bad when we have no knowledge is laughable.

What was the wiggle room?  The ashes, which I just rendered useless except for the pouch I take for Eamon?  Because that's why you take the puch first - after that, they're useless.

The lyrium?  Have we seen lyrium bring anyone else to life?

Why is it laughable to comment on what the devs chose to show us?  Am I supposed to withold all opinions until Bioware says, okay, we're done now?

it is laughable that they say they have an explanation and yet you still claim its a bad retcon. you arent even giving them a chance. instead you are automatically labeling it without seeing it first. you are determined not to like it from the beginning.

[mesmerizedish]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

They said they have a reason, and did not say that they weren't going to say why. Automatically labeling it a bad retcon knowing this is jumping to a conclusion.

I'm not labeling anything, and I don't think that TJPags is lableing it "automatically." His feelings on the matter are not without merit. Calling them "laughable" is insulting.

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

it is laughable that they say they
have an explanation and yet you still claim its a bad retcon. you arent
even giving them a chance. instead you are automatically labeling it
without seeing it first. you are determined not to like it from the
beginning.

He's saying "Until I hear it, it looks like a bad retcon." Which is entirely understandable. When that explanation is heard, I imagine that TJPags will address it objectively, and if it's a good explanation, he'll accept it. If he still thinks it's a bad retcon, he'll say so. None of that is laughable.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 04 avril 2011 - 03:34 .

[Icy Magebane]

Brockololly wrote...

Of course, the likely retcon is that when you decapitated Leliana at the Urn, her head flew up and into the Ashes, at which point it pulled a page out of John Carpenter's The Thing, sprouted legs, and after snorting some of the magical ashes, strolled on over and reattached itself to the body. Voila, Leliana 2.0! A wizard did it!

From now on, this is the only explanation I will accept.  Simply masterful!

[TJPags]

Brockololly wrote...

Fieryeel wrote..
Is it really so inconcevable your warden might have failed to kill her?

Decapitation generally means you're no longer among the living.

Fieryeel wrote..
Did your warden check for her pulse? Stab her heart? Kick her body?

The Warden very well might have looted her corpse to get back all her gear at which point she her headless corpse turned into a skeleton. So....yeah


Of course, the likely retcon is that when you decapitated Leliana at the Urn, her head flew up and into the Ashes, at which point it pulled a page out of John Carpenter's The Thing, sprouted legs, and after snorting some of the magical ashes, strolled on over and reattached itself to the body. Voila, Leliana 2.0! A wizard did it!

Snorting ashes is bad, mmmkay? 

The BDF is strong in this thread.  It amuses me.

[TEWR]

The Angry One wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

No way he glanced at some research notes and pulled that off. Man was a blood mage for years. Otherwise he wouldn't keep the notes either, it'd be a death sentence if a Templar found them.

Exactly. I don't get how some people claim he became a blood mage on the spot out of desperation.
Even in DA2 where people pull demons and abominations out of their asses nobody's just going to make a Harvester their first time.

it is blatantly obvious that he had secretly been a blood mage or at the very least knew enough about blood magic to perform it if he so desired but never really wanted to.

I would've been more satisfied though if as he was starting to do Blood Magic he had been shown to be possessed by a Demon, THEN transformed into the Harvestino. He is still a mage and thus still susceptible to possession. Having him perform Blood Magic, get bear hugs from 4-5 corpses, and then transform into the Harvestino.

With how it was done, it's a man who becomes a twisted assortment of flesh who, as he said if you pick the diplomatic option, is "tired of helping". Meaning he voluntarily attacked Hawke, with his mind still intact, even if he was beyond horrifying.

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

They said they have a reason, and did not say that they weren't going to say why. Automatically labeling it a bad retcon knowing this is jumping to a conclusion.

I'm not labeling anything, and I don't think that TJPags is lableing it "automatically." His feelings on the matter are not without merit. Calling them "laughable" is insulting.

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

it is laughable that they say they
have an explanation and yet you still claim its a bad retcon. you arent
even giving them a chance. instead you are automatically labeling it
without seeing it first. you are determined not to like it from the
beginning.

He's saying "Until I hear it, it looks like a bad retcon." Which is entirely understandable. When that explanation is heard, I imagine that TJPags will address it objectively, and if it's a good explanation, he'll accept it. If he still thinks it's a bad retcon, he'll say so. None of that is laughable.

and if he calls it a bad retcon he is still having an opinion on it. which he said he would wait to do. so it is laughable. he has no proof it is a retcon and just dislikes not knowing. and yes it is insulting. that was my intention.

[mesmerizedish]

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

retcon only if we had definitive proof as to her being dead or that they changed something key in origins just to bring her back. given the circumstances of her "death' though their are a few possible explanantions for her coming back. the ashes or lyrium. those were both present and could have had an impact. or that the "maker" intervened. any of those could work and yet they are ignored because people refuse to see them as possibilities.

Of course they're possibilities, but they're stupid possiblities. If that's the explanation Mr. Gaider is talking about, I will be very disappointed.

[TJPags]

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

They said they have a reason, and did not say that they weren't going to say why. Automatically labeling it a bad retcon knowing this is jumping to a conclusion.

I'm not labeling anything, and I don't think that TJPags is lableing it "automatically." His feelings on the matter are not without merit. Calling them "laughable" is insulting.

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

it is laughable that they say they
have an explanation and yet you still claim its a bad retcon. you arent
even giving them a chance. instead you are automatically labeling it
without seeing it first. you are determined not to like it from the
beginning.

He's saying "Until I hear it, it looks like a bad retcon." Which is entirely understandable. When that explanation is heard, I imagine that TJPags will address it objectively, and if it's a good explanation, he'll accept it. If he still thinks it's a bad retcon, he'll say so. None of that is laughable.

and if he calls it a bad retcon he is still having an opinion on it. which he said he would wait to do. so it is laughable. he has no proof it is a retcon and just dislikes not knowing. and yes it is insulting. that was my intention.

No, let me clarify.

I said it looks like a crap retcon.  I said that before Gaider ever posted that they have an explanation.  I have since said it remains looking like a bad retcon, but that I am willing to revise my opinion depending on their explanation.

In other words, it better be good.  And no, I don't think "ashes which somehow escaped defilement flew up her nose, or drifted onto her corpse" as a good explanation.  Perhaps if it was not drilled into us in our discussion with the nut cult guy that we had to take the ashes for Eamon BEFORE destroying the rest.  But not after.

Nor will I think "the maker did it" a good explanation.  Had the Maker done anything in the last few hundred years, I might.  But the whole "Maker turned away" thing kills that.

Nor do I think "The lyrium saved her" cuts it.  Lyrium makes people crazy, blind, addicted, and potentially dead when exposed to it, per game information.  Hasn't brought anyone to life.

I accept that they wanted her alive.  I even accept that they don't ever have to give us an explanation at all.

Bioware - in the form of David Gaider - has said he accepts that some people won't like it.

Why don't you accept that?

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

also just checked the wikis and it says nothing about rendering the ashes useless. so they still are in play here.

[stobie]

Did that many people really kill Leliana?

[mesmerizedish]

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

also just checked the wikis and it says nothing about rendering the ashes useless. so they still are in play here.

*facepalm*

Since someone earlier mentioned the BDF, can we please not use that phrase to describe people like the above?

We're a proud bunch, and I don't want our name sullied.

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

@ TJPags

i know people dont like it but you are stubborn and calling it a retcon with no proof. which was fine when we had no evidence that they had an actual reason but once Gaider said they did then it renders all retcon talk mute. There are perfectly acceptable reasons present in origins that could be used. because these were already present in origins and not introduced in the sequel it wouldnt be a retcon. whether you like it or not is not the issue. you labeling it so is.