665 réponses à ce sujet

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

also just checked the wikis and it says nothing about rendering the ashes useless. so they still are in play here.

*facepalm*

Since someone earlier mentioned the BDF, can we please not use that phrase to describe people like the above?

We're a proud bunch, and I don't want our name sullied.

BDF????? dont know what it means. but i find know fault in looking things up so i know what im talking about. not like i recited it line by line off the top of my head.

[mesmerizedish]

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

@ TJPags

i know people dont like it but you are stubborn and calling it a retcon with no proof. which was fine when we had no evidence that they had an actual reason but once Gaider said they did then it renders all retcon talk mute. There are perfectly acceptable reasons present in origins that could be used. because these were already present in origins and not introduced in the sequel it wouldnt be a retcon. whether you like it or not is not the issue. you labeling it so is.

Yes, he's the stubborn one

[TJPags]

stobie wrote...

Did that many people really kill Leliana?

Actually, I think few did, except in later games to get the achievement. I think DG mentioned their telemetry told them that. Personally, I didn't kill her.

My problem is they gave people the option to do that. They shouldn't give options they intend to take away that blatantly. I think its bad form.

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

@ TJPags

i know people dont like it but you are stubborn and calling it a retcon with no proof. which was fine when we had no evidence that they had an actual reason but once Gaider said they did then it renders all retcon talk mute. There are perfectly acceptable reasons present in origins that could be used. because these were already present in origins and not introduced in the sequel it wouldnt be a retcon. whether you like it or not is not the issue. you labeling it so is.

Yes, he's the stubborn one

it takes two to tango and i am aware i am just as stubborn.

[stobie]

There's an achievement for killing Leliana??? Really! How mean! I thought it was just to open Reaver, which was easily done without any touchy people in the party. Of course, I didn't want to kill any of them... except Loghain, & I would probably have left him alive, too, if it hadn't sent Alistair into such misery. She *could* be annoying at times, but not *that* annoying. I'm not sure I'd even kill Sebastian, who is much worse, but then, he does have a good voice...


Back to the point - they changed their minds, & wanted Leliana to be in this story.  Those who killed her lose that part of the story.  I'm just not sure this is an earth-shattering flaw.  Anders could die in Awakening, right?  They wanted him for this one - for what they felt was a story's greater good. It doesn't seem to warrant this much grief but... as you will! Carry on!

Modifié par stobie, 04 avril 2011 - 03:56 .

[TJPags]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

@ TJPags

i know people dont like it but you are stubborn and calling it a retcon with no proof. which was fine when we had no evidence that they had an actual reason but once Gaider said they did then it renders all retcon talk mute. There are perfectly acceptable reasons present in origins that could be used. because these were already present in origins and not introduced in the sequel it wouldnt be a retcon. whether you like it or not is not the issue. you labeling it so is.

Yes, he's the stubborn one

Yes, apparently I am.

I also apologize for sullying the name of the BDF. 

I get emails now and then from some guy in Nigeria with several hundred million dollars in the bank that he cant access.  If I give him my account number, he'll transfer it to me so he cant get it out of the country, and let me keep some of it.

Should I not call that a scam until I give him my number and wind up broke?

[TJPags]

stobie wrote...

There's an achievement for killing Leliana??? Really! How mean! I thought it was just to open Reaver, which was easily done without any touchy people in the party. Of course, I didn't want to kill any of them... except Loghain, & I would probably have left him alive, too, if it hadn't sent Alistair into such misery. She *could* be annoying at times, but not *that* annoying. I'm not sure I'd even kill Sebastian, who is much worse, but then, he does have a good voice...

Yes, you get an achievement, not for killing her per se, but for defiling the ashes and unlocking reaver.  Some people don't just reload after getting it, they keep that game.  And some play as an ****, and like to do things like that.  They kill Wynne, ****** off all sorts of companions, take all evil choices, etc.

Valid gameplay, done within the bounds of the vanilla - non-modded - game.

[Zalocx]

instead of focusing ON the ashes can't we focus on what exactly MADE them super-healing-dust?

If you buy that its because Andraste was the bride of an existent all powerful creator god called the Maker, than Lelianna could really have been getting visions from Him, and after you left her for dead he healed her. No matter how badass your Warden is, he can't outdo God-with-a-capital-G.

If you don't buy into the Maker remember that Oghren said all the weird sh*t was happening because the mountain was LOADED with Lyrium and that made all those spirits appear and gave the ashes their power. in that case you defiled the ashes but didn't de-lyrium the entire mountain. the raw power from it all could also have brought Lelianna back from the brink of death.

[Fieryeel]

Brockololly wrote...

The Warden very well might have looted her corpse to get back all her gear at which point she her headless corpse turned into a skeleton. So....yeah


Of course, the likely retcon is that when you decapitated Leliana at the Urn, her head flew up and into the Ashes, at which point it pulled a page out of John Carpenter's The Thing, sprouted legs, and after snorting some of the magical ashes, strolled on over and reattached itself to the body. Voila, Leliana 2.0! A wizard did it!


I never have my Wardens kill Leliana, but even so, I'd rather not have people miraculously coming back to life at the wave of a hand with only a meager explanation. DA always seemed like a fairly low magic setting where death had meaning and finality. I'm fine with the occassional resurrection however, if its given genuine plot significance (think Lady Stoneheart from Song of Ice and FIre, not Shepard in ME2). If resurrection occurs, it needs to be a big deal.

Are you gonna start asking Bioware why Zevran was still alive after your character decapitated him on his first ambush?

Face it, whether you like it or not, finishing death scenes are an ingame mechanism, not an actual representation of how you killed the enemy.

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

Zalocx wrote...

instead of focusing ON the ashes can't we focus on what exactly MADE them super-healing-dust?

If you buy that its because Andraste was the bride of an existent all powerful creator god called the Maker, than Lelianna could really have been getting visions from Him, and after you left her for dead he healed her. No matter how badass your Warden is, he can't outdo God-with-a-capital-G.

If you don't buy into the Maker remember that Oghren said all the weird sh*t was happening because the mountain was LOADED with Lyrium and that made all those spirits appear and gave the ashes their power. in that case you defiled the ashes but didn't de-lyrium the entire mountain. the raw power from it all could also have brought Lelianna back from the brink of death.

but they dont like those reasonable explanations. you must think of others to their liking!!!!

[mesmerizedish]

Fieryeel wrote...

Are you gonna start asking Bioware why Zevran was still alive after your character decapitated him on his first ambush?

Face
it, whether you like it or not, finishing death scenes are an ingame
mechanism, not an actual representation of how you killed the
enemy.

Zevran's appearance is a bug. But, I agree that "I decapitated her" is weak.

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

but they dont like those reasonable explanations. you must think of others to their liking!!!!

Those aren't dev explanations. Those are fan speculation. And they're both thin. They would never say "the Maker did it" because they will never say whether or not there is a Maker. And if "lyrium did it," well... that's just stupid. If Mr. Gaider say "the lyrium did it," I'll accept it, but I won't like it. But Mr. Gaider hasn't said anything except that they haven't said anything.

[Ymladdych]

TJPags wrote...
Actually, I think few did, except in later games to get the achievement. I think DG mentioned their telemetry told them that. Personally, I didn't kill her.

My problem is they gave people the option to do that. They shouldn't give options they intend to take away that blatantly. I think its bad form.

Okay, so because my Warden shanked Morrigan in Witch Hunt, I have a reasonable expectation that she'll be dead in my playthrough, right?

Or is that different because Morrigan has "obvious" plot armor?  Or is it different for some other nameless reason?

Oh, that's right, she's a mage, so severing the abdominal aorta won't be fatal to her!  Wait...except that she's not a healer.  Hmmm...she fell through the mirror, so maybe someone on the other side helped her without my knowledge?  Or maybe the wound wasn't as fatal as I thought?  It's possible, but then again, that's a possiblity for any of the NPC's we *kill.*

Just because we see a "messy kill" game mechanic doesn't mean our PC literally decapitated them.  The truth is, we kicked his/her ass and left them for dead, which leaves things open.  (Anders is an exception because you get a closeup of his face losing tension as the life leaves his body.) 

Specifically with Leliana, I think it's a simple matter of your PC being on the Thedas equivalent of an acid trip.  (The whole mountain is made of lyrium, isn't it?)  He/she may have even been in the Fade for the whole gauntlet experience.

[Khaldara]

It's been said several times already, but some people will just refuse any explanation that includes divine intervention or magic as a narrative advancement as being a "****ty explanation" despite the fact that magic has already been shown to allow virtually anything within the game world to occur, from the presence of demons, the undead, healing magic, possession by intangible spirits.. etc. etc. and the additional presence of a divine force that (allegedly) actually does something beyond act as a political tool really makes anything possible.

It's not so much a bad explanation as it is simply playing by the rules of the world as it exists. And essentially as a narrative, the writers will advance the story by any means necessary if a sequel is requested. Whether it involves a time traveling mabari that craps rainbows, or has a completely detailed step by step explanation is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. You might not PREFER the explanation offered, but it is what it is, and complaining about it here really isn't going to achieve anything.

You're playing a fantasy video game, a certain level of suspension of disbelief is expected by the audience from the genre at large... or are you irked at all the flying fire breathing lizards, magic swords, people throwing elements around, fictional races, and lack of archeological and evolutionary evidence for the world at large? It's a story. There's a narrative arch, climax and resolution.. I don't really understand what you're hoping to accomplish, if you don't like it, don't partake in the experience. I'm honestly not trying to be a dick, I just don't get what you're seeking.

Its like detesting a book, getting a response from the author, and then demanding that the response is inadequate.. ok then.. who are you hoping to get more information from? The person responsible for its creation REPLIED already! Not liking the answer isn't going to change anything.

Modifié par Khaldara, 04 avril 2011 - 04:44 .

[Darth Krytie]

Khaldara wrote...

It's been said several times already, but some people will just refuse any explanation that includes divine intervention or magic as a narrative advancement as being a "****ty explanation" despite the fact that magic has already been shown to allow virtually anything within the game world to occur, from the presence of demons, the undead, healing magic, possession by intangible spirits.. etc. etc. and the additional presence of a divine force that (allegedly) actually does something beyond act as a political tool really makes anything possible.

It's not so much a bad explanation as it is simply playing by the rules of the world as it exists. And essentially as a narrative, the writers will advance the story by any means necessary if a sequel is requested. Whether it involves a time traveling mabari that craps rainbows, or has a completely detailed step by step explanation is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. You might not PREFER the explanation offered, but it is what it is, and complaining about it here really isn't going to achieve anything.

You're playing a fantasy video game, a certain level of suspension of disbelief is expected by the audience from the genre at large... or are you irked at all the flying fire breathing lizards, magic swords, people throwing elements around, fictional races, and lack of archeological and evolutionary evidence for the world at large? It's a story. There's a narrative arch, climax and resolution.. I don't really understand what you're hoping to accomplish, if you don't like it, don't partake in the experience. I'm honestly not trying to be a dick, I just don't get what you're seeking.
Its like detesting a book, getting a response from the author, and then demanding that the response is inadequate.. ok then.. who are you hoping to get more information from? The person responsible for it's creation REPLIED already! Not liking the answer isn't going to change anything.

I like you just a little for that response.

[Brockololly]

Khaldara wrote...
It's not so much a bad explanation as it is simply playing by the rules of the world as it exists. And essentially as a narrative, the writers will advance the story by any means necessary if a sequel is requested. Whether it involves a time traveling mabari that craps rainbows, or has a completely detailed step by step explanation is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. You might not PREFER the explanation offered, but it is what it is, and complaining about it here really isn't going to achieve anything.

The problem in part with DA2 is that the rules of the world aren't applied with any consistency. You can be a blood mage who struts around Kirkwall twirling your apostate staff and slitting your wrists spraying blood in Meredith's face while raining molten chunks of death from the sky and people go about their business and the Templars don't even notice or react. Its that lack of reactivity thats being brought up in many of DA2's criticisms.

So to just have a character brought back to life rather selectively makes it seem as if its yet another case of the game not having any consistency in its world and not being reactive to the players that killed Leliana- DA is supposed to be a world where death matters. And by most in game measures, if you killed Leliana she was dead as dead could be. I'm fine if they have some explanation for why somebody may be back from the dead, but it should be one which at least tries to mesh with what the player is seeing in game and isn't just handwaved away as no big deal. And hopefully, its not dealt with as nonchalantly as Shep being resurrected in ME2:pinched:

Modifié par Brockololly, 04 avril 2011 - 04:58 .

[Camenae]

Hmm, the nobody can tell you're a mage/blood mage thing in DA2 didn't really bother me...I was used to that from Origins. I mean Wynne and Alistair were all like BLOOD MAGIC NOOOOOO, but there I was standing in a sustained pool of blood and sloshing it left and right and they both are like +100 approval!

[Squeeze the Fish]

Brockololly wrote...


The problem in part with DA2 is that the rules of the world aren't applied with any consistency. You can be a blood mage who struts around Kirkwall twirling your apostate staff and slitting your wrists spraying blood in Meredith's face while raining molten chunks of death from the sky and people go about their business and the Templars don't even notice or react. Its that lack of reactivity thats being brought up in many of DA2's criticisms.

So to just have a character brought back to life rather selectively makes it seem as if its yet another case of the game not having any consistency in its world and not being reactive to the players that killed Leliana- DA is supposed to be a world where death matters. And by most in game measures, if you killed Leliana she was dead as dead could be. I'm fine if they have some explanation for why somebody may be back from the dead, but it should be one which at least tries to mesh with what the player is seeing in game and isn't just handwaved away as no big deal. And hopefully, its not dealt with as nonchalantly as Shep being resurrected in ME2:pinched:

Leliana = Shepard, Justina/Chantry = TIM/Cerberus

Clearly.

Modifié par Squeeze the Fish, 04 avril 2011 - 05:48 .

[Merced652]

blah blah something about "shanking" morrigan.

Thats bull**** and you know it. That said, i'm not even going to bother with the rest of what has to be drivel. 

The whole scene where you stab morrigan was explicitly done to convey mystery as to whether she would've died or not. And since you couldn't kill her in normal gameplay, why the hell did you think you'd be able to in a DLC. Especially when the devs said her story isn't over. You attempted to kill her, she fell through a mirror. A powerful, shape changing malificar fell through a mirror with one stab wound and you're gonig to compare that to gutting leliana and then looting her corpse. No cinematic, no mirror, no mage, not powerful, but whatever. Like i said earlier, this thread is a tired trail of retarded excuses. 



hahaha acid tript as a fade sequence now.. You people will come up with anything. 

Modifié par Merced652, 04 avril 2011 - 06:07 .

[the-expatriate]

Why can't it just be "Leliana was seen alive at the end of DA2 regardless of whether or not she was once killed (or perhaps simply fell in combat let's say) in DA:O, but it hasn't been revealed to us yet how this is possible."

Is this such a stretch? Sure it's convenient to have her alive again, but why assume that the reason is contrived? Perhaps there's actually a really good explanation in store for us and all we must do is wait for it.

[NedPepper]

TJPags wrote...

Fieryeel wrote...

I dun understand why people don't get this point: There is no death move exception for ingame mechanic purposes, unless it is a scripted cutscene like Loghain's. You decapitating Leliana or Wynne never truly happened in canon. You taking them down IS canon, and they being dead or looking dead is canon too.

So why did Leliana survive?

1) The ashes healed her. It was never confirmed that desecrating the ashes would destroy them, or take away their healing power. It's also a fact that the ashes are a huge mystery, and the limits of their power has not been explored. Oghren too hinted there were more to the ashes than meets the eye.

2) She used Feign Death. Just because you didn't have her learn that skill doesn't mean she lacks it in canon. When I first saw Anders, he used Flame Blast, but he didn't have the skill in his ingame spell book. Why is it so unrealistic for Leliana, an extremely skilled bard who has probably slaughtered dozens to hundreds of foes to be able to trick you?

3) You knocked her out, or you left her for dead, unfortunately though, Leliana was stronger than you thought, and against all odds, survived the mountain and escaped.

I am not defending David Gaider here, but I do not deny that fact I absolutely adore Leliana, however, her survival is not completely impossible.

The fact that characters like Zevran stay dead after I killed him means that much of my choices do matter.

Nah, don't buy it.  My Wardens sure as heck knew how to kill someone when they wanted to.  None of this ashes, lyirum, feign death, only a flesh wound nonsense is going to cut it for me.  And I never even took the option to kill her.

They retconned it.  They're allowed to do so.  But as David Gaider said, we're allowed not to like it.

I'll wait for their explanation, but I will call it crap if that's what I think it is. 

Bottom line, shouldn't have been an option.

You have some audacity, dude.  You're basically calling David Gaider a liar while sitting at home in your anonymous underpants.  I realize this is just the interwebz, but there is something called civility.  You don't like the damn game, fine...but drop the holier than thou elitist crap.  Don't assume you know anything more than what you and the rest of us have seen. 

And I'm not just singling you out.   This goes for all of you.   Your presumptions don't mean anything, because you have no information to base it off of.  This thread has become juvenile, entitled whining.  You should be glad Gaider has the patience to deal with you in the first place.  As a writer, I sure as heck wouldn't even bother.

It's like you watched Empire Strikes Back and got mad because the story wasn't "complete."  

Not to mention, out of everything to get angry about, one character's ressurection, which the writer clearly said will be explained, is the kind of over the top anal nitpicking that makes you look like you're more obsessed with finding flaws than enjoying the games you come onto a forum in support of.   There's contrustive criticism and there's obsessive bitterness... 

[supakillaii]

David Gaider wrote...

Zevran is not alive if you killed him. His appearance, for some, is a bug that will hopefully be fixed soon. As for Leliana, we have an explanation-- whether or not you think it's a good one will be up to you.

Ooo Leliana's presence will be explained? DLC? Expansion? Independent game?

[Andraste_Reborn]

The could be any number of explanations for Leliana coming back from death, but here's the one I like: there really is a spirit talking to her and sending her visions. It's a spirit of Faith, like the one inhabiting Wynne, and if your Warden leaves Leliana for dead in the lyrium-infused, spirit-friendly cave it brings her back from the brink.

Only a guess, and there could be plenty of other reasons, but its my preferred one right now because it explains her visions of well. Spirits of Faith do have a record of resurrecting people, since one of them brought Wynne back - apparently twice, if you import a save where you killed her into Awakening.

Modifié par Andrastee, 04 avril 2011 - 09:28 .

[Torax]

I don't have to like everything in a game. But if I focus on one flaw and just keep complaining over and over. Maybe they'll actually have read it. Wait, you mean the writer actually already read it? I should totally keep posting about it over and over. I should also work really hard to argue over and over without really adding anything new. Just so I can maybe be right eventually. Oh and the people making the thing I'm complaining about? Even those Writers probably don't know what they are talking about. Only I can be right, here at home in my pajama pants.

Modifié par Torax, 04 avril 2011 - 09:30 .

[Conduit0]

I can give you the perfect explanation for Leliana being alive, infact it only needs one word, "canon".
Thats right, canon, as in killing Leliana is not part of the canon story and therefore simply didn't happen. The fact that we have the choice to kill her in the game means nothing, at no time did anyone from Bioware ever claim that every last choice we make in the game would carry over to future titles. And to head off the idiotic responses, no it does not lessen, or demean, or ruin, or whatever your game experience. If you had fun making those various choices as you played the game, than nothing can lessen that experience now.


Honestly, I'm curious how you people are going to react when Morrigan's god baby becomes a prominent figure in a future game. Because I can guarantee you with absolute certainty that Morrigan getting ritual freaky with a warden will be the official canon, whether you chose to except the deal or not.

[Apollo Starflare]

David Gaider wrote...

I'm not sure what it is you expect me to say. I'm not about to apologize for our choices, though I certainly recognize that not everyone is happy with them. As for threads elsewhere, if someone wants to go to other places on the internet to complain-- okay? I'm not sure what that proves, other than that some people are really determined to be right.

There is no right or wrong here, however-- there's people who enjoyed the story and there's people who didn't. I hear plenty from both. Feel free to explain why you think so, and I'll listen, but don't expect more than that.

Perhaps it's better if I simply said nothing in response. In fact, it very likely is.

This is why we can't have nice things.

Some people seem to forget that devs like Mr Gaider use their own time to post around here and enlighten us about certain things (where they can), they also seem to forget that devs can only say so much thanks to NDA's and other restrictions. Personally I'm just thankful we get responses from the Lead Writer (and others) on these boards, makes posting around here a lot more interesting and fun.

I mean, I can understand why some might not like the decision the team have made in regards to Leliana (one character out of many) but a lot of the reaction is essentially unconstructive crying which helps no-one.

One of the things I like about the decision to have Leliana return is the extra thread it creates tying the series together. It was no doubt a risk having DA2 set so far apart from DAO in some ways, and one that some felt didn't pay off (I disagree) leaving it disconnected (again, disagree). When Leliana returns in DLC and DA3 it'll be just another example of why the series IS connected, a tapestry of events, characters and choices that come together to show a clear picture of Thedas during a time of extreme crisis and change.