665 réponses à ce sujet

[DanteCousland]

Im just pleased DG actually adressed this issue, granted it wasnt what we wanted to hear but im pleased enough with that. XD

[lorvincent]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I'm not sure what it is you expect me to say. I'm not about to apologize for our choices, though I certainly recognize that not everyone is happy with them. As for threads elsewhere, if someone wants to go to other places on the internet to complain-- okay? I'm not sure what that proves, other than that some people are really determined to be right.

There is no right or wrong here, however-- there's people who enjoyed the story and there's people who didn't. I hear plenty from both. Feel free to explain why you think so, and I'll listen, but don't expect more than that.

Perhaps it's better if I simply said nothing in response. In fact, it very likely is.

This is why we can't have nice things.

Some people seem to forget that devs like Mr Gaider use their own time to post around here and enlighten us about certain things (where they can), they also seem to forget that devs can only say so much thanks to NDA's and other restrictions. Personally I'm just thankful we get responses from the Lead Writer (and others) on these boards, makes posting around here a lot more interesting and fun.

I mean, I can understand why some might not like the decision the team have made in regards to Leliana (one character out of many) but a lot of the reaction is essentially unconstructive crying which helps no-one.

One of the things I like about the decision to have Leliana return is the extra thread it creates tying the series together. It was no doubt a risk having DA2 set so far apart from DAO in some ways, and one that some felt didn't pay off (I disagree) leaving it disconnected (again, disagree). When Leliana returns in DLC and DA3 it'll be just another example of why the series IS connected, a tapestry of events, characters and choices that come together to show a clear picture of Thedas during a time of extreme crisis and change.

I agree with everything you just said! 

Just to tack on, Leliana was one of the most popular characters in DA:O, being a far more detailed companion than the majority of your others (with the exception of Alastair).  It was the best choice of all the companions to revisit in DA:2.

[Bmeszaros]

Is it possible BW to cover this up by coming out and saying in future DA lore that the tale of the warden, which Varric offers to retell Cassandra, is nothing more than a story as well? Couldn't Varric (Or any storyteller for that matter), embellish or add certain elements? Like there is truth to it, but you need to hear the actual story from someone who was there?

[Ksandor]

I am not surprised with Mr. Gaider's reaction. He says “I am the writer, this is my prerogative, go pout, I win” (sorry about that Joker J). This is all too normal. He would never admit that his work in DA II is subpar. Admitting one’s mistakes is always emotionally difficult. Admitting something like that in public is not a sound career choice. And no company would like to see their employers confess something like that.

Besides why should he care about why people did not like his work in DA II? His mainstream work sells well enough to justify the quality level. He defends his work with the standard businessman relativist and stoic attitude. He says that our criticism is invalid because it is our preference, it is subjective and he does not care. But despite Mr. Gaider’s indifference we know that there are blatant continuity errors because of the time constraints imposed upon the creative staff and there are obvious plot holes in the game. Dismissing our claims by overanalyzing them won't change the truth.

One should ask himself: If I did this right why there are so many negative reactions? I know many games which are far better story wise. Baldur's Gate series and Mass Effect games are a testament to that. Gaider should look at BG Throne of Bhaal unofficial mod of his called Ascension to see how far he has fallen in quality. But he would not care about it. He is paid well by Bioware and EA (and believe me even if I don’t like DA II I wish him success in his career) and people still buy DA II copies. So he won't be compelled to do something better. He too knows this is not one of his best moments but trying to force him to admit that is pointless. Actually I think that Mr. Gaider is perfectly capable of doing much better, but as long as there is easy money to make… Well you get my point.

Of course they will find many people to sell this anachronistic medieval fantasy fiasco to replace the single sale (!) they lost because of me but I am a free man, I have my own opinion whether teenager fanboys who are policing this forum think me a jerk or not, I won't buy a game like this again. I don't want to waste my money on mediocre work.

And do you know why DA II is not half of that it should have been? This is because you would need more than 18 months to make a decent computer role playing game. It should take at least 2 years. As an insider and a professional game writer Mr. Gaider knows that very well too. If he had enough time he would excel himself. The only way to make Bioware and EA guys change their mind is to not buy such games. Do you see it happening anytime soon? Don’t think so.

Modifié par Ksandor, 04 avril 2011 - 01:32 .

[sheppard7]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Sammyjb wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

As for Leliana, we have an explanation-- whether or not you think it's a good one will be up to you.

I'll bet it's the same reason that Aveline shows up in DAII even though Leliana clearly said she had her throat slit and died.

I *think* this is sarcasm. But in case I'm wrong (I'll look like an idiot either way), Aveline was named after the chevalier Aveline from long ago.

Now I think you were joking. Dang.

I wasn't joking, insofar as I do think it's the same reason. There's a degree of irony, though, certainly, because that reason happens to be "they're not the same person."

Leliana has an evil twin, OMZ!

Not the same. There is companion dialog with her and now I forget who was the other that she said she was named after. I only heard it once so forgot who was the other but I think it was Isabela.

[LilyasAvalon]

David Gaider isn't really to blame, the dev team as a whole more or less is. Corners were cut, things were rushed and I pretty much felt like I was pointed and gone 'HA! HA! Your epilogues don't mean squat!'.

I risked my neck for Anders and he apparently ditches me as soon as Awakening is over according to DA2. =/

[rak72]

After the ashes were defiled, Andraste's spirit left them & possessed Leliana. Or, the evil twin.

[didymos1120]

I think if people take only one thing away from this topic, it should be this:  decaptitations during combat do not set  their own special, little plot flags.  No plot flag == Does. Not. Count.  There is but one thing for it: cope.

Note: this is entirely separate from the death-reversal bit.  Coping with that is optional, though recommended.*

*(also recommended: not bringing up "But, but, you guys: decaptitation!" ever again.  I don't expect this will actually happen though).

[Apollo Starflare]

lorvincent wrote...

I agree with everything you just said! 

Just to tack on, Leliana was one of the most popular characters in DA:O, being a far more detailed companion than the majority of your others (with the exception of Alastair).  It was the best choice of all the companions to revisit in DA:2.

Plus of all the ones who had the potential to return she offers a particularly large amount of potential for character development, both as an antagonist and as an ally. Her new position as Seeker means she occupies a role that could be used as the villain of future content should the writers choose to, yet with her history with the Warden (and the player) she could also be used as a returning ally or a mixture of both. Plus unlike Alistair no matter what happens at the end of Origins it isn't a HUGE stretch to imagine she ends up with the Seekers, the difference between the four fates of Alistair are quite drastic in comparison (for example).

Oh and looking at some comments in this thread I'm amused that some posters are using the fact DA2 has recieved heavy criticism in some areas to give weight to their opinion on something else entirely. The writing for DA2 is not some hideous mistep or mistake that the writers should be admitting people, if you don't like it fine but a lot of us (and critics!) loved it and felt it was the games strong suit, even when others aspects of the game were disappointing. I would hope the writers are actually very proud of what they accomplished with DA2, same goes to the cinematic team.

[dantares83]

Khaldara wrote...

It's been said several times already, but some people will just refuse any explanation that includes divine intervention or magic as a narrative advancement as being a "****ty explanation" despite the fact that magic has already been shown to allow virtually anything within the game world to occur, from the presence of demons, the undead, healing magic, possession by intangible spirits.. etc. etc. and the additional presence of a divine force that (allegedly) actually does something beyond act as a political tool really makes anything possible.

It's not so much a bad explanation as it is simply playing by the rules of the world as it exists. And essentially as a narrative, the writers will advance the story by any means necessary if a sequel is requested. Whether it involves a time traveling mabari that craps rainbows, or has a completely detailed step by step explanation is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. You might not PREFER the explanation offered, but it is what it is, and complaining about it here really isn't going to achieve anything.

You're playing a fantasy video game, a certain level of suspension of disbelief is expected by the audience from the genre at large... or are you irked at all the flying fire breathing lizards, magic swords, people throwing elements around, fictional races, and lack of archeological and evolutionary evidence for the world at large? It's a story. There's a narrative arch, climax and resolution.. I don't really understand what you're hoping to accomplish, if you don't like it, don't partake in the experience. I'm honestly not trying to be a dick, I just don't get what you're seeking.

Its like detesting a book, getting a response from the author, and then demanding that the response is inadequate.. ok then.. who are you hoping to get more information from? The person responsible for its creation REPLIED already! Not liking the answer isn't going to change anything.

I like this answer best... even Leandra (sp?) survived for at least a few hours after she was decapitated because of magic! I think she only died because Hawke killed the person sustaining the spell so I  losing a head in DA world don't mean a thing as long as you got Lyrium and magic.... 

n besides, it had been said many times that the animation don't really mean anything, they are only for show (mainly) 

[Volourn]

"He would never admit that his work in DA II is subpar."

Except, his work in DA2 isn't subpar. It's easily some of his better work.

[Miashi]

I just have 1 question for David Gaider (if he still reads this topic): Will you be releasing a book between DA:2 and DA:3?

[Lord_Valandil]

Urgh. Again the excuse of "The decapitation is only for show".

[ThePasserby]

I like Leliana and I have never killed her in any of my DAO playthroughs. But the sense I get from DG's replies is: "It's my story and I decide how it turns out, and I don't have to explain anything that appears inconsistent, even if the dead comes back to life. Don't like it? Too bad."

I'd say it's better off for us to talk among ourselves, and deride the story for the inconsistencies without inviting imput from him. He hasn't clarified anything substantive other than complaining that the average forum user isn't being as careful with words as he is, or that he has something more to say on the matter but he ain't gonna do that.

[David Gaider]

Ksandor wrote...
I am not surprised with Mr. Gaider's reaction. He says “I am the writer, this is my prerogative, go pout, I win”

Just a note that this is an unfair characterization of my response. I am not saying "go pout, I win". I am simply pointing out what I think should be obvious: that we are willing to make changes as we see fit, and that while some people may not like the idea of "retcons" (whether they are literal changes to past events or simply explanations for events that someone doesn't buy) they're going to happen. If someone wants to hold the opinion that not having every single choice carry forward as they expect ruins the credibility for all in-game reality... understood. I never claimed that reaction was invalid, or that anyone should "go pout".

It is, however, our perogative... and that is "our" and not just mine. I am the Lead Writer but I do not dictate everything about what a story will be. I know it is difficult for some to picture, but writing for a game is not like writing for a book. The story is only one element of a game and must work hand-in-hand with, and sometimes subservient to, the needs of other departments and their available resources. Pointing this out is not meant as arrogance, and I'd go so far as to suggest the only reason to suggest it's such is out of resentment... whether it's against me personally, the company or our decisions. Which is too bad.

At any rate, we're fully aware of the negative reactions, as I've already said. That does not disqualify the positive ones, nor the fact that we will move forward. If I'm going to occasionally pop in and mention when there's something that we will specifically do or not do in the future, you can either take that for what it is or ignore it. It's not meant as a personal attack, and having it responded to as such is a little disconcerting.

Take care.

Modifié par David Gaider, 04 avril 2011 - 05:39 .

[David Gaider]

Miashi wrote...
I just have 1 question for David Gaider (if he still reads this topic): Will you be releasing a book between DA:2 and DA:3?

Possibly.

[Talogrungi]

The return of a character previously considered dead is a staple of fictional literature.

Factor in a world where magic is possible, have that "death" (of a devoutly religious character) occur in THE most spiritually significant place in the presence of THE most sacred healing artifact, and what seems at first glance to be a plothole or retcon becomes eminently plausible.

The Nightingale Lives. Maybe we'll find out how/why in DA3.

[byzantine horse]

Possible solution to Leliana's "death": When the Warden destroyed the Urn the ashes within spread for the wind and some of it landed at Leliana's lifeless body and revived her. Problem solved.

Modifié par byzantine horse, 04 avril 2011 - 05:42 .

[Miashi]

David Gaider wrote...

Miashi wrote...
I just have 1 question for David Gaider (if he still reads this topic): Will you be releasing a book between DA:2 and DA:3?

Possibly.

*happy dance*
I really love how you narrate fights. Was really hoping for a glimpse of hope that another book was coming up :3

Modifié par Miashi, 04 avril 2011 - 05:42 .

[DanteCousland]

David could I ask you a question?.
Are you happy with how Dragon Age 2 turned out and the reaction it's getting. Also are you allowed to say things off the books or not?.
Thanks .

[22nd MadJack]

The explanation doesn't require any great deal of thought. She died, but she got better, the end.  

The issue is that it is another infringement upon player choice and ability to affect events in the story.  It's removing power from the player.  It is the writing team getting vexed by those irksome players warping their pristine canon with a sincere desire to roleplay.

Modifié par 22nd MadJack, 04 avril 2011 - 06:00 .

[Miashi]

I wonder if they had threads like these on Harry Potter forums when Voldemort kept coming back in every book. It took a couple of books to finally explain his "immortality". Give the guy a break; there is a reason that Leliana is alive and that should be enough for people to work on speculating *why* instead of bashing his skull open.

Also: she says right in DA:O that she had a vision. She could be a chosen, for all we know.

Modifié par Miashi, 04 avril 2011 - 06:03 .

[NedPepper]

Sherlock Holmes was killed and brought back. The great literary detective. I wonder what it would have been like if there was a social network back then....

The more (or less) current example of this was Ian Malcom dying in the original Jurasic Park only to be the "lead" in the second book. Well, he was popular in the movie, yet anyone who read the Lost World didn't get "Ian Malcom" as told by Stephen Spielberg. Instead whe got a pill-popping non-hero who spent most of the novel high and rambling with himself in a scientific/philosophical debate. I couldn't be mad at Crichton for a couple reasons:

One: the death was reported in the first book by a drunk guy who just shakes his head and mumbles something under his breath. More evidence of "if you don't see the body, the actual death, it doesn't mean they are dead." It's a literary staple.

Two: Crichton didn't sabatoge the character because of the success of Jeff Goldbloom's snarky portrayal. Malcom was still an arrogant jerk more obessed with proving his point than jumping around resucing everyone as he did in the film. In fact, Ian Malcom provided DEPTH to that story from his slow descent into madness while arguing with his former colleague through out the book.

My point: The Lost World, while not a great novel, didn't suffer from what many considered a hackish move to bring back Ian Malcom. Crichton just had to do it before Spielberg turned him into a super-hero. Go back and read "The Lost World." It's actually a lot more interesting than you remember, and part of it is because OF Ian Malcom.

Tying this into Dragon Age...Leliana is a strong, fascinating, and POPULAR character. She brings a unique perpective to the game and deciding to remove her and what she can offer to the story because of an arbitrary "choice" only SOME gamer made is taking away a writer's ability to craft his or her story. And say whatever you want, but stories tend to get linear as they keep going. They have to.

And with that,I'll stop.

[Avissel]

22nd MadJack wrote...

The explanation doesn't require any great deal of thought. She died, but she got better, the end.  

The issue is that it is another infringement upon player choice and ability to affect events in the story.  It's removing power from the player.  It is the writing team getting vexed by those irksome players warping their pristine canon with their sincere desire to roleplay.

Not really. As he pointed out earlier, just because they brought her back doesn't mean the death never happened.
Your Warden still choose to kill her, she still died. Your choice still happened, but something brought her back.

The death wasn't invalidated and is still part of the story, doesn't mean she must absolutely totally stay dead forever.