665 réponses à ce sujet

[DanteCousland]

Aaaah Jurrasic Park and harry potter, two classic examples of a great story........

[CarlSpackler]

David Gaider wrote...

Miashi wrote...
I just have 1 question for David Gaider (if he still reads this topic): Will you be releasing a book between DA:2 and DA:3?

Possibly.

Since you're in such a giving mood, will we see what happened to Morrigan - with and without the dark ritual, what Flemeth really is, what happened to Marric, see the Tevinter Emprium, find out the truth about the blights, and visit the black city? 

Modifié par CarlSpackler, 04 avril 2011 - 06:07 .

[Curlain]

Well with Holmes Conan Doyle made sure in the Final Problem to make sure a body was never recovered (and even commented on this being deliberate) as without a body being found he had an out to resume writing Homes if he choose.

Even if it was all then put down to a judo style move on Moriarty and then the fact Holmes felt he then had to go into hiding from Moriarty's henchmen until the opportunity presented itself to arrest them. Still it wasn't the worst 'I actually never really died' explanation I ever read

Modifié par Curlain, 04 avril 2011 - 06:13 .

[DanteCousland]

i really think the writers shot themselves in the foot with giving us so much choice, you cant encorporate it all and keep a consistent overarching plot without screwing a few people up. For example the OGB should easily be one of the biggest plot points in a dragon age universe however Bioware can only use it in a much smaller role (Side quest form) to not have to end up with making two seperate stories revolving around if there was the OGB or not. I really do think a canon should be established from now on because although I love having choice in games I'd much prefer a consistent story and this thing with Leliana despite DG insisting that it is consistent lets face it....it really isn't.

[NedPepper]

DanteCousland wrote...

Aaaah Jurrasic Park and harry potter, two classic examples of a great story........

And yet the point remains solid.  And what about Doyle's Holmes?  Is that just another "classic" example of bad writing? 

You know, we ARE talking about a dark fantasy game with dragons, witches, elves, and magic.  Suspension of belief?  Maybe? No?

Okay, rage away.

[Ryzaki]

Harry Potter was fine until the last two books. Ugh.

[DanteCousland]

i hate how people are like Its a fantasy game yo so anything can happen...no within that universe certain things can happen such as dragons and spiders. People coming back from the dead- no because wev'e seen that when you kill people they don't come back.

Also in Holmes its ambiguous they only make it seem like he's dead but as said before a body isn't found .

[22nd MadJack]

Avissel wrote...
Not really. As he pointed out earlier, just because they brought her back doesn't mean the death never happened.
Your Warden still choose to kill her, she still died. Your choice still happened, but something brought her back.

The death wasn't invalidated and is still part of the story, doesn't mean she must absolutely totally stay dead forever.

As I said, she got better.  Admittedly on the scale of 'annoying choice removals', this ranks pretty low.  I suppose it wouldn't be out of the question if Duncan showed up, since we didn't actually see him die.  Whereas I do vividly  remember shortening Leliana by a head.

Modifié par 22nd MadJack, 04 avril 2011 - 06:21 .

[Curlain]

nedpepper wrote...

DanteCousland wrote...

Aaaah Jurrasic Park and harry potter, two classic examples of a great story........

And yet the point remains solid.  And what about Doyle's Holmes?  Is that just another "classic" example of bad writing? 

You know, we ARE talking about a dark fantasy game with dragons, witches, elves, and magic.  Suspension of belief?  Maybe? No?

Okay, rage away.

Well to be fair with Holmes no one ever actually saw the fight with Moriarty (apart from Holmes himself of course ) all Watson found was a note left by Holmes prior to starting his fight with the Professor, so unlike Leliana (in which people saw he die) this wasn't the case with Holmes.  Not saying a good reason won't be provided, just saying it has more problems to be taken seriously

[Miashi]

DanteCousland wrote...

Aaaah Jurrasic Park and harry potter, two classic examples of a great story........

Yeah, of course, anything that anyone would come up with would be brushed down by your quick and witty backhand.

DanteCousland wrote...

i really think the writers shot themselves in the foot with giving us so much choice, you cant encorporate it all and keep a consistent overarching plot without screwing a few people up. For example the OGB should easily be one of the biggest plot points in a dragon age universe however Bioware can only use it in a much smaller role (Side quest form) to not have to end up with making two seperate stories revolving around if there was the OGB or not. I really do think a canon should be established from now on because although I love having choice in games I'd much prefer a consistent story and this thing with Leliana despite DG insisting that it is consistent lets face it....it really isn't.

No, no, no, no no.
If the fact that Leliana is the only major plot confusion in DA:2, then please give me more choices. I love Mass Effect, but I do not wish to play Dragon Effect 3. Thank you but no thank you.

[Maria Caliban]

DanteCousland wrote...

Aaaah Jurrasic Park and harry potter, two classic examples of a great story........

How is Jurassic Park not a great story?

[DanteCousland]

My backhand is certainly witty maybe if you got my backhand more often youd know when to pipe down. .

[22nd MadJack]

Miashi wrote...

No, no, no, no no.
If the fact that Leliana is the only major plot confusion in DA:2, then please give me more choices. I love Mass Effect, but I do not wish to play Dragon Effect 3. Thank you but no thank you.

Comparitively speaking ... mass effect, one or two, had more choices available to the player.  They even had origins in their own very basic way.  In these two games I found myself entirely able to create a character, rather than suffering the distinct feeling I was ordering around a 'set in stone' protagonist (as Brent Knowles would say).

Modifié par 22nd MadJack, 04 avril 2011 - 06:25 .

[DanteCousland]

Maria Caliban are you being serious please tell me your not.

[DanteCousland]

You do realise the majority of the hcoices in DA2 led to the same linear path anyway.

[LobselVith8]

nedpepper wrote...

And yet the point remains solid.  And what about Doyle's Holmes?  Is that just another "classic" example of bad writing? 

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle originally intended to kill Sherlock Holmes. His popularity with fans lead to his revival. I guess you can make the argument that the same is true for Leliana (for fans who ended up killing her).

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria Caliban wrote...

DanteCousland wrote...

Aaaah Jurrasic Park and harry potter, two classic examples of a great story........

How is Jurassic Park not a great story?

Other than the T-rex, that's the one scene I remember the most.

[Miashi]

Thing with Mass Effect is that it started and will end with Shepard, and the Dragon Age saga did not. There's a whole world of difference between the 2 games.

As far as choices go, I do not disagree with you that DA:2 needed more choice. I'm trying to say that I DON'T want DA:3 to have less choice, it already had so few, or they felt inconsequential. Please no.

[DanteCousland]

Cool

Modifié par DanteCousland, 04 avril 2011 - 06:31 .

[22nd MadJack]

Miashi wrote...

Thing with Mass Effect is that it started and will end with Shepard, and the Dragon Age saga did not. There's a whole world of difference between the 2 games.

As far as choices go, I do not disagree with you that DA:2 needed more choice. I'm trying to say that I DON'T want DA:3 to have less choice, it already had so few, or they felt inconsequential. Please no.

Quite frankly, I wouldn't bleat half so much on these forums if I was simply given the option to play a dwarf.

[Maria Caliban]

DanteCousland wrote...

Maria Caliban are you being serious please tell me your not.

I am serious.

Please tell me how Jurassic Park was not a great story.

Michael Crichton was a respected science fiction author when he died. I've read The Andromeda Strain, Sphere, and Congo, as well as Jurassic Park and they all strike me as excellent novels.

[Volourn]

JP is a fantastic story. Just because it is an action adventure doesn't mean it isn't. The characters are well realzied, the action is believeable in the world creatored, the moral aspects of the plot can be thoguht provoking, etc., etc.


"Really?

*picks 2h Hawke* 5 minutes later...

Leandra: Carver I think we have too much melee in the party, don't you? *wink, wink*

Carver: *sigh* Fine... *Ogre proceeds to curbstomp Carver*

5 minutes later, again...

Leandra: Oh, my poor dear boy who i've known practically since the intro of the game.

No offense to Mr. Gaider, but he can obviously do WAYYY better than this.I've read both The Calling and The Stolen Throne, which were excellent."

L0L "And, run he did." I didn't read either of the novels, but DA2 stands up in terms of writing as good or better than other BIO/Gaider games. This is fact. Some of his (their) best work is found in DA2. Just deal with it.

[Paeyne]

Retconing is an interesting subject that I am usually of two minds about.

In certain cases I think it is just fine. As an example, it is commonly thought that there is no cure for the Tranquil mages. If, at some point, we find out that there is, that only means that common thinking was mistaken. The credibility people give to something is often proportionate to the number of people who believe it to be true. Truth by majority if you like. In actuality it only means that more people could be wrong. (The world, last time I checked, is not flat and the fact that everyone at one point believed it was flat did not make it any more flat.)

Much of the 'cannon' we have from the DA world comes from codex in which the writer may have been mistaken/crazy/deluded/working on an agenda etc.

Where I have problems with retconing is when established facts are:

1. Re-written without any explanation at all: This is often found in comic books and graphic novels. The writer simply re-writes past history to suit him. Its kind of like a bad magic trick where you see everything he is doing but are supposed to pretend otherwise.

2. Tissue paper explanation of a retcon: You see soap operas do this all the time. It wasn't Mary who died it was her long lost twin sister... I mean triplet... I mean second cousin twice removed who just happened to look exactly like her. I would rather have the previous retcon. At least it doesn't insult my intelligence.

3. Have your cake and eat it too retcons: You see these mainly in science fiction novels. This is the alternate time lines, alternate dimensions, far into the future/past story-lines. I don't really have a problem with these except that they start getting really confusing and silly when taken too far. The history of the character Wolverine is just one example of retcons gone horribly wrong.

As to the subject of plot holes: A plot hole is an event that is inconsistent to the logic of world portrayed. A character having lunch in Washington and dinner in Japan is a plot hole as there would be no way for him to travel that distance in the allotted time (unless the story features teleportation, time folding or something similar.)

Liliana coming back is not a plot hole as we do not know the mechanism for her return. I can think of half a dozen different ways she could come back that would be perfectly consistent with the game world and I am not nearly as familiar with that world as Mr. Gaider. I would remind everyone that Wynne died (however briefly). That could mean that the mage who wrote the codex on the Laws of Magic was mistaken or it could mean there are exceptions to the rule he was unaware of.

Perhaps the Maker sent his devoted servant back to the mortal world to perform a task for him. I think we can all agree that if anyone has the power to return the dead to life, he does.

In a world saturated in magic it should be no surprise to anyone that miracles happen.

[Torax]

Maria Caliban wrote...

DanteCousland wrote...

Maria Caliban are you being serious please tell me your not.

I am serious.

Please tell me how Jurassic Park was not a great story.

Michael Crichton was a respected science fiction author when he died. I've read The Andromeda Strain, Sphere, and Congo, as well as Jurassic Park and they all strike me as excellent novels.

I still wish Hammond died like he did in the book. Instead he lives happily every after. Well also that Ian wasn't fat and balding but still dressed like a biker.

[NedPepper]

LobselVith8 wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

And yet the point remains solid.  And what about Doyle's Holmes?  Is that just another "classic" example of bad writing? 

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle originally intended to kill Sherlock Holmes. His popularity with fans lead to his revival. I guess you can make the argument that the same is true for Leliana (for fans who ended up killing her).

That's pretty much the point I was making.  Except in Dragon Age, not everyone's canon involves a dead Leliana.  To me, that doesn't make it an official death.

It's like killing Wrex in Mass Effect.  I'm glad I let him live, because it enrichens the story by having him leading his Clan in the second.  It also means Wrex can hang around for the third game.  Of course, if you used...I dunno...a "canon" save not imported, Wrex is dead.

It's a slippery slope by giving you choices, and like the writers of Mass Effect have said, it makes writing the next installment so much more complicated. 

I think instead of all of this whining, people should be grateful Bioware tries to let you have the RPG experience while trying to tell a great story that isn't sacrificed by allowing the player to roam free and do whatever they want, story be damned...I like story.  Bioware tells great stories.  Period.