665 réponses à ce sujet

[Conduit0]

Xanfaus wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

So I'm guessing no one plays the DA games just to have fun? Its just an exercise devoid of entertainment for the sole purpose of seeing how your choices effect the game world from one game to the next?

Part of the fun is seeing how your actions might affect the game world in the future. If the choices do not matter in the end or the middle (whatever DA2 is), then are the choices really worth having as part of the game? That time and effort on the developer's part might as well be spent on some other aspect of the game instead of providing choices that might be overwritten in the future.

Honestly, after all this, all I can say is, if you're really so bloody hung up over the fact that one minor possible choice didn't get counted, than maybe the DA series just isn't right for you. Bioware has made it pretty clear that they have a story to tell and they are going to tell it their way, even if it means they occasionally have to take an official canon stance on some issues to do it.

Killing a companion because you made a decision is not what I would call a "minor" choice. You have quite possibly fought and bled with that person, traded stories, or became friends or more by that point in the game. Choosing to do something that they disagree with enough to fight you to the death, having the game (and the developer) suggest that the outcome might affect further games set in the same world, and then deciding without bothering to inform the player until pretty much the end of this game that some or all of those events "did not really happen" makes all of the talk about save game importing seem rather disingenuous.

Again, Bioware, and any other developers for that matter, are more than welcome to write and sculpt their worlds as they see fit, but do not pretend or give the impression that the choices that the player may make are actually important.

So basicly you're saying its a no win situation.  People want a good story, because thats what Bioware is known for, however they also want lots of choices like DA:O had, but you can't tell a consistant story with that many factors to contend with, so some toes are stepped on in the process and people whine about it. So if they offer fewer choices like in DA2, so you can write consistant story without stepping on peoples toes, they instead complain that there aren't enough choices.
Having your cake and eat it too strangely comes to mind.

[Xanfaus]

Conduit0 wrote...

So basicly you're saying its a no win situation.

No.

What I am saying is that if Bioware is going to make decisions invalid then they might as well just make their stories linear and remove any vestigial suggestions that the player's actions can affect events that occur in this or other games.

I have enjoyed quite a few games with linear stories. In fact some of them (Red Dead Redemption minus Mexico and Bioshock up to the big twist), are games that I hold in high regard. I would be fine if Bioware came out and said that Dragon Age X will be more or perhaps completely linear as far as player choice is concerned. I just do not like feeling like the game is giving me options and then ignoring them later depending on which option I take.

[lorvincent]

JakePT wrote...
Picture you're reading a book, say, since I know you've read it, A Game of Thrones. Now say a major character who dies shows up in A Clash of Kings, perfectly OK. It appears the death didn't happen, their head is on their shoulders and none of the other characters seem to think anything is up. Now, I don't know about you, but that's just downright stupid. How would that be acceptable storytelling in any medium?

Just a funny thought... didn't that exact thing happen in the epilogue of A Storm of Swords?

Catelyn was alive, with absolutely no explanation. It was the end of the book, and the next one was on its way... so tell me... was that a cliff hanger, or a plot hole?  Sure, you could have drawn a conclusion on what happened since she was hanging with Tom Seven Strings, but you wouldn't want to ASSUME something, would you?(sarcasm)

Seriously, I still don't get the point of this thread other than unmitigated complaining.

Modifié par lorvincent, 05 avril 2011 - 05:42 .

[TEWR]

you're gone for 1 day and 6 pages pop up to be read! Oh come on!

[Torax]

Pretty sure that is their intent Iorvincent. It just helps them probably feel even more justified cause Gaider replied.

Not meaning to deter you from responding in threads in the future David G. You input is very appreciated. Any time you feel you have something to add. Feel free. I'm sure more are ready to listen than to argue.

[TEWR]

DanteCousland wrote...

i hate how people are like Its a fantasy game yo so anything can happen...no within that universe certain things can happen such as dragons and spiders. People coming back from the dead- no because wev'e seen that when you kill people they don't come back.

Also in Holmes its ambiguous they only make it seem like he's dead but as said before a body isn't found .

to you I say this: WYNNE.

She's already died once in battle with a demon, as the Circle Tower tells us, and was brought back to life by the Spirit of Faith. So no. You can die in Thedas and be brought back to life.

And like it or not people, the argument of "I decapitated her derp. She should be dead!" is a poor argument at best. Actually, no it's not even an argument. Flash game mechanic does not constitute canon anything.

[Conduit0]

Torax wrote...

Pretty sure that is their intent Iorvincent. It just helps them probably feel even more justified cause Gaider replied.

Not meaning to deter you from responding in threads in the future David G. You input is very appreciated. Any time you feel you have something to add. Feel free. I'm sure more are ready to listen than to argue.

Thats the problem with the internet, you can't see people listening, or well, more acurately, reading, but you sure as heck can see them arguing and complaining.

[TEWR]

Xanfaus wrote...


Killing a companion because you made a decision is not what I would call a "minor" choice. You have quite possibly fought and bled with that person, traded stories, or became friends or more by that point in the game. Choosing to do something that they disagree with enough to fight you to the death, having the game (and the developer) suggest that the outcome might affect further games set in the same world, and then deciding without bothering to inform the player until pretty much the end of this game that some or all of those events "did not really happen" makes all of the talk about save game importing seem rather disingenuous.

Again, Bioware, and any other developers for that matter, are more than welcome to write and sculpt their worlds as they see fit, but do not pretend or give the impression that the choices that the player may make are actually important.

So, because Leliana is alive, that clearly makes the act of defiling the Urn of Sacred Ashes an event that never happened? For one thing, we don't even know if the Urn was actually defiled and rendered useless. All you did was pour dragon's blood in it, and we don't even know if Dragon's blood has any magical properties anyway. You can't say because Kolgrim drank it and became a reaver then Dragon's Blood does in fact have some sort of magical properties. It doesn't. A reaver is, as far as DA is concerned, someone who revels in death and drinks blood. Drinks being the operative word. They're vampires, to an extent, with the blood doing nothing magical. It's basically their choice of whiskey. Potent, salty, and red. Very very red.

For all we know, pouring dragon's blood did absolutely nothing to the ashes. Know why? You're taking advice and information seriously from a man who is not only clearly insane, but knows absolutely nothing about magic other than "The Guardian is from the past, knows us, and won't let us in."

Also, why would any person bring a devout woman of faith to a holy temple where you're planning on defiling the Ashes, when you are friends or possibly more? That's just stupid, especially since she'll try to kill you. I'm not calling the people who did that stupid, but there is absolutely no logic behind that course of action. She's obviously going to disagree immensely.

And as I recall, can't you order her to stand down with high enough persuasion/coercion?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 avril 2011 - 06:13 .

[lorvincent]

Torax wrote...

Pretty sure that is their intent Iorvincent. It just helps them probably feel even more justified cause Gaider replied.

Not meaning to deter you from responding in threads in the future David G. You input is very appreciated. Any time you feel you have something to add. Feel free. I'm sure more are ready to listen than to argue.

I'm sure we will see another one(hundred) of these threads for DA:3.  In the meantime, i'll just keep posting my random speculative ideas to help people generate thoughts and ideas (while the devs laugh at how offbase I am).

Personally, I am impatient, and would like to buy a time machine so I can start playing DA:3 already!  I loved the story in DA:2, and the feeling of inevitability the game has is brilliant.  Great commentary, and very "Wager"-ish.  The idea that no matter what you do, your fate, and the fate of the realm, was predetermined by the seemingly unrelated actions of your character.  The entire game does really remind me of the Nibelung.

[Xanfaus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So, because Leliana is alive, that clearly makes the act of defiling the Urn of Sacred Ashes an event that never happened? 

I said absolutely nothing about whether or not the defiling actually happened. I was merely using the example of Leliana apparently being killed by the player either due to their "stupidity" or their carelessness to examine the weight of player choice.

Also, look, I know that there are differences of opinion on this matter, but there's no reason whatsoever to resort to insults over a disagreement.

[TEWR]

Xanfaus wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So, because Leliana is alive, that clearly makes the act of defiling the Urn of Sacred Ashes an event that never happened? 

I said absolutely nothing about whether or not the defiling actually happened. I was merely using the example of Leliana apparently being killed by the player either due to their "stupidity" or their carelessness to examine the weight of player choice.

Also, look, I know that there are differences of opinion on this matter, but there's no reason whatsoever to resort to insults over a disagreement.

I never insulted anyone...





EDIT: In general comment for this thread. I don't understand how one, ONE, option is such big deal regarding choices that matter when you have 30 other options that you've made that actually do matter. If they took away every choice you made, sure then these threads could be rightly allowed to have a serious case of ragebies. But one, when people knew a story was going to be told, boggles my mind.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 avril 2011 - 06:27 .

[Torax]

Sorry you lost me on which Nibelung you are referencing. The stories. The Sci Fi movie. The Staff from WoW that had me wishing it proc'ed as much as it did for so many others on world of logs.

[Ymladdych]

Xanfaus wrote...
No.

What I am saying is that if Bioware is going to make decisions invalid then they might as well just make their stories linear and remove any vestigial suggestions that the player's actions can affect events that occur in this or other games.

I have enjoyed quite a few games with linear stories. In fact some of them (Red Dead Redemption minus Mexico and Bioshock up to the big twist), are games that I hold in high regard. I would be fine if Bioware came out and said that Dragon Age X will be more or perhaps completely linear as far as player choice is concerned. I just do not like feeling like the game is giving me options and then ignoring them later depending on which option I take.

So it's all or nothing?  Leliana's cameo bothers you so much that you'd rather force strict canon on every other player's game?

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you.  And I say that as someone who had a *MAJOR* decision overlooked with Awakening...the US ending.  I could either take a default world state with an Orlesian Warden or retcon my ending from Origins; not just any choice, either...The Big Choice.

But guess what?  I decided that I loved the franchise more than *my* ending, and I was willing to compromise because I could see the logistical complications of supporting every permutation while trying to maintain a cohesive narrative.  So I replayed Origins and went with the Redeemer ending.  Was I disappointed?  Sure.  But I never felt for one instant that I would've been happier with strict canon.  (And I say that as someone who also loves static games like RDR, Bioshock, and GoW.)

[TEWR]

Ymladdych wrote...

(And I say that as someone who also loves static games like RDR, Bioshock, and GoW.)

GoW as in Gears of War or God of War? When I see GoW nowadays, I never know which it is people mean.

[Any0day]

Conduit0 wrote...

So basicly you're saying its a no win situation.  People want a good story, because thats what Bioware is known for, however they also want lots of choices like DA:O had, but you can't tell a consistant story with that many factors to contend with, so some toes are stepped on in the process and people whine about it. So if they offer fewer choices like in DA2, so you can write consistant story without stepping on peoples toes, they instead complain that there aren't enough choices.
Having your cake and eat it too strangely comes to mind.

See, I'm not quite sure I agree with this at all. Why are you stating "but you can't tell a consistant story with that many factors to contend with" as a fact when really that's just an opinion, and a wrong one at that. It's quite possible to make a good consistent story and still have all the options in the world using plot 'hubs' or sections of the game that are relatively unchanging while still taking into account the story options the player has triggered.

Literally, all you have to do is have a variable in the game saying "$NPC_IS_DEAD= 0 or 1;" and write a story contingency for it  at a major plot hub. In fact, in fact they did this with all the other major NPCs, why is Leliana different? You're actually arguing an invalid argument because your half/most of the premises are false. The only logical conclusion is A) they made a mistake, or they haven't explained why they brought her back.

I just want an answer, neither is right or wrong. They brought back Sarevok in BG2ToB, they brought back Ammon Jerro in NWN2MotB, and each time the reasoning was believable and accepted. Here, they gave us ABSOLUTELY NO EXPLANATION. I really don't get how that's hard to understand. If you're going to break the rules, give a reason for doing it or immersion goes out the window. I think that's why people are screaming and yelling, at least that's why I am.

Modifié par Any0day, 05 avril 2011 - 06:53 .

[TEWR]

Any0day wrote...

Here, they gave us ABSOLUTELY NO EXPLANATION. I really don't get how that's hard to understand. If you're going to break the rules, give a reason for doing it or immersion goes out the window. I think that's why people are screaming and yelling, at least that's why I am.

Except David Gaider (or some other dev. I can't recall which one exactly) said that they have an explanation and we will be told what it is. We just have to be patient.

And people can't be patient because they cry "MOAR" and "GIMME". Even with all the fanciful wording, the civil presentation, underneath it all this is really what they are saying.

Take that as an insult or just a plain statement people, it is what it is and even I don't know the intent behind those words. Whether I mean to be a dick or am just speaking anyway.

[DanteCousland]

To the all the people going "Yo you complain and then you feel justified because DG replies" all I can say to that is yes, yes I do. Seriously what really bugs me is the level of sycophantism on this board, can't we just have disagreeing opinions without people calling us a troll or whatever. If you don't like this thread so much leave and stop complaining, it's done fine without you so far .

[Any0day]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Except David Gaider (or some other dev. I can't recall which one exactly) said that they have an explanation and we will be told what it is. We just have to be patient.

If that's the case, no offense taken. Except for the fact it kinda feels like that ship sailed already... I mean unless they're going to have you import your DA2 save containing all your info from your DA1 save, I'm kinda unsure how they're going to go about explaining something that may or may not have happened. If they are going to explain it, I'm perfectly content.

[Raygereio]

DanteCousland wrote...
Seriously what really bugs me is the level of sycophantism on this board, can't we just have disagreeing opinions without people calling us a troll or whatever.).

Welcome to fanboyism; it's not the worst, but it probably is the most annoying type of trolling.

Anyway; more on topic.

I do find the blatant handwaving in certain areas annoying and disappointing; especially in light of previous statements from (I believe mister Gaider) that there is no canon in the DA games. That actually made me more interested in DA2; could it be that BioWare would give us – the player – that much power over the stories of future games? Heck no! That would be impossible to write for, but at the very least BioWare can give the player the illusion that his or her choices matter. BioWare is good at fooling the player in thinking he or she has freedom and choice, after all. Whelp, here we are. Well, to be honest; there were some decent nods to the player’s continuity. But then there’s Leliana, oh how to solve a problem like Leliana?
 
The weird thing is that the writer team could have easily avoided problems like this. Don’t want to have to deal with Leliana either being alive or dead? Don’t want the headache of having to defend on the forums “a wizard err… a bunch of ashes did it”? Then don’t put her in the game. It’s not like her appearance had any significance to it in DA2; the warning in Sebastian’s last mission and the lines in the epilogue could have been delivered by anyone and it wouldn’t have made any difference, all her cameo was good for was making the world of DA2 feel small and confined.
 
At least things like this can be excused (somewhat… I guess) as exchanging a story with no holes and no weird disconnects in logic for some old fashioned fan boy pandering. Well, I hope it’s that at least; the other possibility of the writers being in love with their characters to the point where they have to be put in somewhere, regardless of whether or not it makes sense is slightly more depressing.
And besides, when compared to the myriad of other issues one can have with DA2’s naretive without comparing it to what went before; I feel that problems like this are rather minor and insignificant in comparison.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Except David Gaider (or some other dev. I can't recall which one exactly) said that they have an explanation and we will be told what it is. We just have to be patient.
And people can't be patient because they cry "MOAR" and "GIMME". Even with all the fanciful wording, the civil presentation, underneath it all this is really what they are saying.

First of all; yes, that did sound dickish. But don’t worry, I didn’t take it as an insult.
Secondly, no. That's not what I'm saying for one. Sure, a writer can easily create a steaming pile of a mess and then in a later instalment handwave until his arms are sore and everything has the semblance of making sense.
We can argue back and forth on this and never come to an agreement because there is no right answer to this; but I don’t find that good storytelling. A good writer could have avoided issues like this to begin with.
And as a sidenote if DA is going the ME route of explaining headache inducing plot screw ups in books then I cry foul. That’s just bad no matter how you look at it.

Now, I am saying “MOAR!” though, but that’s me saying “Hey, DA2’s story is a steaming pile of a mess, but underneath there you had some neat and – for BioWare – new ideas. Why don’t you try again and hopefully it will work out next time.”

Modifié par Raygereio, 05 avril 2011 - 08:10 .

[TEWR]

Raygereio wrote...

DanteCousland wrote...
Seriously what really bugs me is the level of sycophantism on this board, can't we just have disagreeing opinions without people calling us a troll or whatever.).

Welcome to fanboyism; it's not the worst, but it probably is the most annoying type of trolling.

Anyway; more on topic.

I do find the blatant handwaving in certain areas annoying and disappointing; especially in light of previous statements from (I believe mister Gaider) that there is no canon in the DA games. That actually made me more interested in DA2; could it be that BioWare would give us – the player – that much power over the stories of future games? Heck no! That would be impossible to write for, but at the very least BioWare can give the player the illusion that his or her choices matter. BioWare is good at fooling the player in thinking he or she has freedom and choice, after all. Whelp, here we are. Well, to be honest; there were some decent nods to the player’s continuity. But then there’s Leliana, oh how to solve a problem like Leliana?
 
The weird thing is that the writer team could have easily avoided problems like this. Don’t want to have to deal with Leliana either being alive or dead? Don’t want the headache of having to defend on the forums “a wizard err… a bunch of ashes did it”? Then don’t put her in the game. It’s not like her appearance had any significance to it in DA2; the warning in Sebastian’s last mission and the lines in the epilogue could have been delivered by anyone and it wouldn’t have made any difference, all her cameo was good for was making the world of DA2 feel small and confined.
 
At least things like this can be excused (somewhat… I guess) as exchanging a story with no holes and no weird disconnects in logic for some old fashioned fan boy pandering. Well, I hope it’s that at least; the other possibility of the writers being in love with their characters to the point where they have to be put in somewhere, regardless of whether or not it makes sense is slightly more depressing.
And besides, when compared to the myriad of other issues one can have with DA2’s naretive without comparing it to what went before; I feel that problems like this are rather minor and insignificant in comparison.

wasn't there a way though in DA:O that if you talked to her at the ceremony she says she would be working for the Chantry? I'm almost 100% positive that was one of her various ending lines, so her being the left hand of the Divine makes absolute sense.

I think you had to not romance her and, obviously, not kill her at the Urn of Sacred Ashes.

[AtreiyaN7]

From what I've seen/heard in game, it appears that the events of DA:O take place over a year approximately. I'm assuming that the Hawkes stuck with their plan and traveled to Gwaren to take a ship to Kirkwall after meeting Flemeth. How long that part of their journey took wasn't specified as far as I can recall, but I would guess that it took a fair amount of time. And once you actually make it to Kirkwall, there seems to be some period of waiting just to find Gamlen (don't think it was that long, but I'm not sure). Afterward, Hawke ends up as an indentured servant for a whole year. I'm not really seeing that much of a problem if one factors in the time it took to get to Gwaren and then to Kirkwall.

[TEWR]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

From what I've seen/heard in game, it appears that the events of DA:O take place over a year approximately. I'm assuming that the Hawkes stuck with their plan and traveled to Gwaren to take a ship to Kirkwall after meeting Flemeth. How long that part of their journey took wasn't specified as far as I can recall, but I would guess that it took a fair amount of time. And once you actually make it to Kirkwall, there seems to be some period of waiting just to find Gamlen (don't think it was that long, but I'm not sure). Afterward, Hawke ends up as an indentured servant for a whole year. I'm not really seeing that much of a problem if one factors in the time it took to get to Gwaren and then to Kirkwall.

let's see,

• DA:O - roughly a year is what we fans believe, if not longer.
• Hawke's journey to Gwaren - Shouldn't have taken too long with Flemeth alongside them.
• 3 days waiting for Gamlen, Aveline says this.
• a year of servitude
• Meet Anders who knows when, because game time and real time are not equivalent. For all we know, Hawke is doing all these quests over a course of months and then Anders comes in, despite these quests only being maybe a few hours for us to complete.

You're right, it shouldn't be a problem really.

[Ski Mask Wei]

I hope they have a good explanation for this because I didn't even get Leliana on my one first DA:O game (didn't go to the inn) and here she is in DA2 telling she adventured with the Hero of Ferelden. Lying b*%@#!

As far as retcons and things go: Bioware can do what they want with their stories and games but if they don't care about the integrity of the plot and settings why should I? I am way too anal about that stuff to give Bioware a pass when I've quit watching better things for less. I don't mind the laming out on the backgrounds, items, crafting and whatnot but if this is the direction y'all are going with future game stories it's time for me to move on.

[Raygereio]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
wasn't there a way though in DA:O that if you talked to her at the ceremony she says she would be working for the Chantry? I'm almost 100% positive that was one of her various ending lines, so her being the left hand of the Divine makes absolute sense.

No, it said something to the effect of Leliana being invited by grand poobah of the chantry.
But I didn't say her apearance didn't make sense (well, it does if she's dead); read again what I said.

[TEWR]

Raygereio wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
wasn't there a way though in DA:O that if you talked to her at the ceremony she says she would be working for the Chantry? I'm almost 100% positive that was one of her various ending lines, so her being the left hand of the Divine makes absolute sense.

No, it said something to the effect of Leliana being invited by grand poobah of the chantry.
But I didn't say her apearance didn't make sense (well, it does if she's dead); read again what I said.

Oh I'm not saying you said anything of the sort. I just remembered an ending where she was doing some work for the Chantry. I could be wrong, but wasn't it investigating the Deep Roads for them (why I don't know, she ain't no Grey Warden)? I just want to make sure that she was working for the Chantry, so her promotion to the left hand of the Divine should make sense to people, especially if she was working for the Chantry at the end of DA:O. Bah curse me and my use of the Golden Mirror Exploit to get back into a romance with Morrigan after I've broken up with her because of the confrontation of simultaneously boinking Morrigan and Leliana.