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Plot holes, retcons and poor storytelling- Sorry David Gaider


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#526
Zeevico

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Frankly, I've succumbed to the overreaction bug in past posts.

At the end of the day, DA2 is an enjoyable game. It has its flaws, and I think they're more numerous than DAO. The lack of dialogue in side quests and minor characters was, in my respectful view, disappointing; so too, the lack of a thorough "origin" for hawke. The dialogue options felt more constrained, and Hawke's choices don't seem to affect much (or don't give that impression, at any rate). Otherwise a great game, with great companions, great dialogue (such as there is) and great storytelling. It's the lack of it in the sidequests (and other mood killers like recycling maps) which I find less than enjoyable.

As for Twilight: I think it perfectly captures the writing style of a 13 year old teenage girl. I think the romance is too slow. Is there a sponge effect? Do I think I can stand in for the main character? Plainly many people do think so; I personally don't have that experience.

And lastly, David Gaider isn't wholly (or even largely) responsible for the flaws in this game. I'm pretty sure Bioware isn't responsible for a 1.5 year time frame. They had what they were given.

Modifié par Zeevico, 05 avril 2011 - 11:33 .


#527
KLUME777

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Lithuasil wrote...

I've heard this a few times now, but where is actually detailed how long the first blight took? Because I've only read *less then a year*, and if it was a whole year, do we count from when Cailan started fighting the things, or from Ostagar? If we count from Ostagar, why did the archdemon camp in Lothering for at least ten month?


Gaider said DAO takes place over a 1-2 years. I guess now that DA2 is out, the maximum it took is 1 year, and that feels about right anyway.


Origins takes 1yr >>>>Awakening takes place 6 months later >>>>Witch Hunt occurs 2 and a half years after the Archdemon is slayed.

This means from Origin story to Eluvian mirror with Morrigan, it takes 3 and a half years.


If you want proof, check the wiki Here and Here. Just check the plot overview.

#528
Aradace

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hanoobken wrote...

Aradace wrote...

hanoobken wrote...

Today I on my 5th playthrough I decided to completely be a jerk to Merill at every turn. Funny thing is, after I denied giving her the item that Marethari entrusted to me, Merill still slept with me and moved into my mansion even though rivalry was maxed.

She then went back to her hut and smashed the mirror saying that she should have done it years ago sometime in Act 2. That excited me a bit, a different outcome in the story which i did not expect.

But then in Act 3, with the mirror smashed and all... she starts the same story over, The mirror doesn't work and she needs my help to fix it by going to the demon in Sundermount.

I mean... WTF Bioware? I understand that importing saves can be hard but Merill is a product of DA 2. Couldn't you at least have changed that outcome? How the heck is my absolute rival my lover? How does she fix the mirror when she herself smashed it to pieces? Come on.... you can do better than that can't you? Why give us a choice on how to do things when the outcome doesn't change at all? I feel kinda cheated...


This is likely one of the bugs being fixed with the upcoming patch.  Im hoping anyway seeing as how over 100 "fixes" are being implemented lol.

Yeah let's hope so, I actually thought after Merill smashed the mirror that I wouldn't have to kill the keeper anymore just to fulfill Merill's wishes.  And then there's another issue.  At Sundermount after I defeat the Demon inside the keeper, Marethari says it's over and that we defeated the demon.  You then have a choice of either saying something like "It's over let's go home" and "Didn't you say we had to kill you?"

So I chose the "let's go home" option this time, Merill hugs the keeper and the keeper stabs Merill in the gut!  Then you have to fight the demon once more at 1/4 health.

So I kind of expected Merill to die after getting stabbed.  Surprisingly... nothing changed!!!

Again WTF Bioware???


Merril not dying after being stabbed isnt a bug believe it or not.  If you look at her health when the fight begins, she's merely in "Injured" status.  Which, a stab to the gut isnt going to kill you strait away if you treat the injury.  And it's assumed that an "injury kit" has all the tools etc need to treat just about any kind of non fatal wound.  So that part, I wasnt annoyed with.  What I was annoyed with, was like you said inyour previous post because the same damn thing happened to me and I was like "Lulz wut?"

#529
KLUME777

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Except it is not a retcon. Gaider has clearly stated, that even if we did "kill" her, there is a reason she is back. A retcon would just be Gaider saying: "Yeah, you didn't kill her. Period."


It is a retcon. There is no way around it, no matter what the creater says. The creator can bring her back to life, but that is a retcon. Fact.

In DAO, you kill her. If she was supposed to survive, or was meant to be alive in DA2 when they were making Origins, they would either have not let you kill her, or they would have written her death sequence so that it is implied that she survived, or maybe she escapes before you can kill her. The fact they did not means they did not know or think to permanetely include her in DA2. If they did know she was going to be in DA2 no matter what, then it is just terrible writing killing her like that and bringing her back. They retconed her, which is really annoying, because they could have easily replaced her with someoe else if you kill her in Origins. Which points even more to the fact that the game is rushed.

#530
Shadow of Light Dragon

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KLUME777 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Except it is not a retcon. Gaider has clearly stated, that even if we did "kill" her, there is a reason she is back. A retcon would just be Gaider saying: "Yeah, you didn't kill her. Period."


It is a retcon. There is no way around it, no matter what the creater says. The creator can bring her back to life, but that is a retcon. Fact.


So is Flemeth coming back to life a retcon as well?

Or will the answer be no, just because Morrigan said 'I doubt she will truly be dead.'? The creators are still bringing her back to life, or whatever.

Wynne was brought back to life by her Spirit of Faith. Is that a retcon?

Someone remind me what the explanation for Oghren's return in DA:A was, though? Were we given a good one?

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 05 avril 2011 - 11:48 .


#531
Shadow of Light Dragon

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Aradace wrote...

hanoobken wrote...

So I chose the "let's go home" option this time, Merill hugs the keeper and the keeper stabs Merill in the gut!  Then you have to fight the demon once more at 1/4 health.

So I kind of expected Merill to die after getting stabbed.  Surprisingly... nothing changed!!!

Again WTF Bioware???


Merril not dying after being stabbed isnt a bug believe it or not.  If you look at her health when the fight begins, she's merely in "Injured" status.  Which, a stab to the gut isnt going to kill you strait away if you treat the injury.  And it's assumed that an "injury kit" has all the tools etc need to treat just about any kind of non fatal wound.  So that part, I wasnt annoyed with.


Considering the Pride Demon wanted to possess Merrill, I didn't find it surprising that it didn't stab to kill. It drew blood to heal itself, presumably in the hopes it could still win the fight, but it would have been counterproductive to its diabolical plan to kill Merrill after all the effort it had gone to to help her with the eluvian.

That's my reasoning, at least.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 05 avril 2011 - 11:29 .


#532
AlexXIV

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Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Except it is not a retcon. Gaider has clearly stated, that even if we did "kill" her, there is a reason she is back. A retcon would just be Gaider saying: "Yeah, you didn't kill her. Period."


It is a retcon. There is no way around it, no matter what the creater says. The creator can bring her back to life, but that is a retcon. Fact.


So is Flemeth coming back to life a retcon as well?

Or will the answer be no, just because Morrigan said 'I doubt she will truly be dead.'? The creators are still bringing her back to life, or whatever.

Wynne was brought back to life by her Spirit of Faith. Is that a retcon?

Someone remind me what the explanation for Oghren's return in DA2 was, though? Were we given a good one?


Flemeth is not human. Humans usually stay dead if they die. Outside of Bioware games anyway.

You mean Oghren in DA:A I assume? Far as I have seen it was: 'He wasn't dead, just knocked out.'

#533
Talogrungi

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KLUME777 wrote...

It is a retcon. There is no way around it, no matter what the creater says. The creator can bring her back to life, but that is a retcon. Fact.


*sigh* .. no.

Ever watch Stargate SG-1? .. Doctor Daniel Jackson. He "dies" tons of times. Is every one of those a retcon? .. of course not, because the writer(s) intend for him to die and come back. That's the difference between a plot-twist and a retcon.

Such as it is with Leliana and the warden's ability to "kill" her.

#534
Aradace

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Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Aradace wrote...

hanoobken wrote...

So I chose the "let's go home" option this time, Merill hugs the keeper and the keeper stabs Merill in the gut!  Then you have to fight the demon once more at 1/4 health.

So I kind of expected Merill to die after getting stabbed.  Surprisingly... nothing changed!!!

Again WTF Bioware???


Merril not dying after being stabbed isnt a bug believe it or not.  If you look at her health when the fight begins, she's merely in "Injured" status.  Which, a stab to the gut isnt going to kill you strait away if you treat the injury.  And it's assumed that an "injury kit" has all the tools etc need to treat just about any kind of non fatal wound.  So that part, I wasnt annoyed with.


Considering the Pride Demon wanted to possess Merrill, I didn't find it surprising that it didn't stab to kill. It drew blood to heal itself, presumably in the hopes it could still win the fight, but it would have been counterproductive to its diabolical plan to kill Merrill after all the effort it had gone to to help her with the eluvian.

That's my reasoning, at least.


Which is also a good point and why Im not annoyed by it.  It's simply the actual "bug" involved in her quest that annoyed me lol.

#535
Any0day

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Talogrungi wrote...

Ever watch Stargate SG-1? .. 


Are you seriously justifying what's considered a retcon by quoting an entirely different universe, did that just happen?

Modifié par Any0day, 05 avril 2011 - 11:40 .


#536
TEWR

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ForeignPatriot wrote...

What I think is silly is the way this all comes across.

I doubt many people would have an issue with it if the devs said something like "We totally forgot/overlooked the fact that Leliana could be dead. However, we have come up with a cool solution which will be revealed in DA: 3 (or in the "future") and we think you will like it"

Instead they come off as making a mistake and then trying to cover it/justify it by implying there IS a reason they're not going to reveal.

If you ask me, its a little far fetched to think they "meant" for this to happen. And if they did, it was done in a terrible way as I don't think anyone got the sense that there was more to Leliana's death than met the eye (unlike Morrigan's).

.


so it's implausible for them to have had a grander role for Leliana in their heads right from the get-go as Origins was completed and they were beginning work on DA2? But it's entirely plausible that this was some random ****-up they did.

Good to know you know the minds of the developers and how they made/make their games.Image IPB

NOTE: not being a dick here. People, you will KNOW when I'm being a dick.

#537
Shadow of Light Dragon

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AlexXIV wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

So is Flemeth coming back to life a retcon as well?

Or will the answer be no, just because Morrigan said 'I doubt she will truly be dead.'? The creators are still bringing her back to life, or whatever.

Wynne was brought back to life by her Spirit of Faith. Is that a retcon?

Someone remind me what the explanation for Oghren's return in DA2 was, though? Were we given a good one?


Flemeth is not human. Humans usually stay dead if they die. Outside of Bioware games anyway.

You mean Oghren in DA:A I assume? Far as I have seen it was: 'He wasn't dead, just knocked out.'


Yes, Oghren in DA:A >.< *fixed original post* Just knocked out? Now *that* I would consider a poor excuse. Especially if the fight showed you cutting his head off. :/

Just because Flemeth isn't human doesn't give her a free pass of invulnerability ;) But since we don't know what she is, she could well be invulnerable. I was just making the argument that death need not be permanent in the fantasy genre, so bringing people back to life isn't always a horrendous 'retcon'. Depends on the reasoning.

Leliana's might be good. Oghren's, if that was the official word, definitely wasn't (in my books).

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 05 avril 2011 - 11:55 .


#538
Jmaru7

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reading through this, am I the only person whos seen/heard the talkative man's rant in the hanged man about the blight being a lie?
Not that hes right and it didn't happen but his main reason for the theory is that it only lasted 2 years....
So though that adds to the huge plotholyness....... I don't reqally care tbh, I like how it is and can get over those little holes, besides Anders is back because people loved him, and sandel should always be everywhere... so you can't have it both ways

#539
Shadow of Light Dragon

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Any0day wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

Ever watch Stargate SG-1? .. 


Are you seriously justifying what's considered a retcon by quoting an entirely different universe, did that just happen?


Talogrungi is explaining the difference between a plot twist and retroactive continuity.

#540
KLUME777

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Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Except it is not a retcon. Gaider has clearly stated, that even if we did "kill" her, there is a reason she is back. A retcon would just be Gaider saying: "Yeah, you didn't kill her. Period."


It is a retcon. There is no way around it, no matter what the creater says. The creator can bring her back to life, but that is a retcon. Fact.


So is Flemeth coming back to life a retcon as well?

Or will the answer be no, just because Morrigan said 'I doubt she will truly be dead.'? The creators are still bringing her back to life, or whatever.

Wynne was brought back to life by her Spirit of Faith. Is that a retcon?

Someone remind me what the explanation for Oghren's return in DA2 was, though? Were we given a good one?


No, Flemeth is not a retcon, it was expained very clearly in Origins and made sense in the lore that she didn't truly die. Thats obvious. Same goes for Wynne, and she never even died, she was near death and then a spirit joined with her. And how can that be a retcon when it happened before you get her? Theres nothing too retcon with Wynne.

With Leliana though, you kill her. End of story. If she is brought back to life, that is a retcon. What annoys me is they could easily have avoided it by replacing her character if you killed her.

Modifié par KLUME777, 05 avril 2011 - 11:56 .


#541
Wulfram

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KLUME777 wrote...

With Leliana though, you kill her. End of story. If she is brought back to life, that is a retcon. What annoys me is they could easily have avoided it by replacing her character if you killed her.


For DA2, they could easily have replaced her.  But they've clearly got bigger plans for her in the future.

#542
KLUME777

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Talogrungi wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

It is a retcon. There is no way around it, no matter what the creater says. The creator can bring her back to life, but that is a retcon. Fact.


*sigh* .. no.

Ever watch Stargate SG-1? .. Doctor Daniel Jackson. He "dies" tons of times. Is every one of those a retcon? .. of course not, because the writer(s) intend for him to die and come back. That's the difference between a plot-twist and a retcon.

Such as it is with Leliana and the warden's ability to "kill" her.


IF Leliana being brought back to life is a plot-twist, then Bioware are terrible writers, especially considering that the majority of players had her alive at the end of DAO, so this "Plot-twist" is only for a small minority that doesnt even get a hint at in DA2, she just simply is there.

No, Leliana being revived is not a plot twist, it is a retcon and you need to stop blindly defending DA2 and accept that.

#543
Jmaru7

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KLUME777 is right.

Flemeth also was in the amulet, she can do that since she is a goddess......

Wynne and the spirit is also explained in Origins if you don't kill her, so same thing applies if you do surely? However, if you do she doesn't appear in awakening..... must be a good reason though :D

Leliana was cloned by the chantry btw

#544
Aradace

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Jmaru7 wrote...

KLUME777 is right.

Flemeth also was in the amulet, she can do that since she is a goddess......

Wynne and the spirit is also explained in Origins if you don't kill her, so same thing applies if you do surely? However, if you do she doesn't appear in awakening..... must be a good reason though :D

Leliana was cloned by the chantry btw


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#545
Shadow of Light Dragon

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KLUME777 wrote...

No, Flemeth is not a retcon, it was expained very clearly in Origins and made sense in the lore that she didn't truly die. Thats obvious. Same goes for Wynne, and she never even died, she was near death and then a spirit joined with her. And how can that be a retcon when it happened before you get her? Theres nothing too retcon with Wynne.


Are you sure? ;) Are you forgetting you can kill Wynne at the Urn of Sacred Ashes, the very same place you can kill Leliana? And then Wynne reappears in DA:A.

With Leliana though, you kill her. End of story. If she is brought back to life, that is a retcon. What annoys me is they could easily have avoided it by replacing her character if you killed her.


It is not a retcon. A retcon would be never acknowledging if she was killed. If something brought her back to life, and this is incorporated into the plot, then it is a PLOT TWIST (albeit one that has not been fully explained yet), not a retcon.

You don't have to like the reasons for Leliana's return, or the fact that she returns at all, but by definition it is not a retcon if there is a reason behind it--and according to Gaider a reason exists (good or bad we will have to wait and see).

#546
KLUME777

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

ForeignPatriot wrote...

What I think is silly is the way this all comes across.

I doubt many people would have an issue with it if the devs said something like "We totally forgot/overlooked the fact that Leliana could be dead. However, we have come up with a cool solution which will be revealed in DA: 3 (or in the "future") and we think you will like it"

Instead they come off as making a mistake and then trying to cover it/justify it by implying there IS a reason they're not going to reveal.

If you ask me, its a little far fetched to think they "meant" for this to happen. And if they did, it was done in a terrible way as I don't think anyone got the sense that there was more to Leliana's death than met the eye (unlike Morrigan's).

.


so it's implausible for them to have had a grander role for Leliana in their heads right from the get-go as Origins was completed and they were beginning work on DA2? But it's entirely plausible that this was some random ****-up they did.

Good to know you know the minds of the developers and how they made/make their games.Image IPB

NOTE: not being a dick here. People, you will KNOW when I'm being a dick.


If Leliana being revived was some "grand" plan, they would have made it where she had to die in Origins, so everyone experiences this plot twist in DA2, not just for a small minority of players who don't even get a hint in DA2 that its a "grand plan", just that she is there when she should be a rotting corpse in the sacred ashes chamber.

#547
TEWR

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Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

So is Flemeth coming back to life a retcon as well?

Or will the answer be no, just because Morrigan said 'I doubt she will truly be dead.'? The creators are still bringing her back to life, or whatever.

Wynne was brought back to life by her Spirit of Faith. Is that a retcon?

Someone remind me what the explanation for Oghren's return in DA2 was, though? Were we given a good one?


Flemeth is not human. Humans usually stay dead if they die. Outside of Bioware games anyway.

You mean Oghren in DA:A I assume? Far as I have seen it was: 'He wasn't dead, just knocked out.'


Yes, Oghren in DA:A >.< *fixed original post* Just knocked out? Now *that* I would consider a poor excuse. Especially if the fight showed you cutting his head off. :/

Just because Flemeth isn't human doesn't give her a free pass of invulnerability ;) But since we don't know what she is, she could well be invulnerable. I was just making the argument that death need not be permanent in the fantasy genre, so bringing people back to life isn't always a horrendous 'retcon'. Depends on the reasoning.

Leliana's might be good. Oghren's, if that was the official word, definitely wasn't (in my books).


 that is a poor excuse, as this thread has stated many times over. Flashy game mechanics do not constitute game canon. Only if it shows a beheading in a cutscene can it be considered canon, because that's shown to happen outside of flashy game mechanics.

#548
KLUME777

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Wulfram wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

With Leliana though, you kill her. End of story. If she is brought back to life, that is a retcon. What annoys me is they could easily have avoided it by replacing her character if you killed her.


For DA2, they could easily have replaced her.  But they've clearly got bigger plans for her in the future.


Which means they retconed her, which is very disjointing for someone that killed her and brings you out of the experiance.

It also means that your decisions in DAO do not matter.

#549
DanteCousland

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Some people are taking this way too seriously haha. I made this thread to ask a question to DG, he answered, I didnt think it was satisfactory but its an answer and I thank him for that. Stop b******* Writer reduxe, this is just getting ridiculous now hahha

#550
TEWR

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KLUME777 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

ForeignPatriot wrote...

What I think is silly is the way this all comes across.

I doubt many people would have an issue with it if the devs said something like "We totally forgot/overlooked the fact that Leliana could be dead. However, we have come up with a cool solution which will be revealed in DA: 3 (or in the "future") and we think you will like it"

Instead they come off as making a mistake and then trying to cover it/justify it by implying there IS a reason they're not going to reveal.

If you ask me, its a little far fetched to think they "meant" for this to happen. And if they did, it was done in a terrible way as I don't think anyone got the sense that there was more to Leliana's death than met the eye (unlike Morrigan's).

.


so it's implausible for them to have had a grander role for Leliana in their heads right from the get-go as Origins was completed and they were beginning work on DA2? But it's entirely plausible that this was some random ****-up they did.

Good to know you know the minds of the developers and how they made/make their games.Image IPB

NOTE: not being a dick here. People, you will KNOW when I'm being a dick.


If Leliana being revived was some "grand" plan, they would have made it where she had to die in Origins, so everyone experiences this plot twist in DA2, not just for a small minority of players who don't even get a hint in DA2 that its a "grand plan", just that she is there when she should be a rotting corpse in the sacred ashes chamber.


you misunderstood me. I said grander role for Leliana, meaning she would have a more profound impact on the story of Thedas outside of DA:O. I didn't say there would be a grander role for her if she was killed.