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[Talogrungi]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Any0day wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

Ever watch Stargate SG-1? .. 

Are you seriously justifying what's considered a retcon by quoting an entirely different universe, did that just happen?

Talogrungi is explaining the difference between a plot twist and retroactive continuity.

Yup, if a resurrection is written into a story then it is not a retcon; the universe is irrelevant.

[Wulfram]

KLUME777 wrote...

Which means they retconed her, which is very disjointing for someone that killed her and brings you out of the experiance.

It also means that your decisions in DAO do not matter.

It means that that specific decision in Origins didn't matter.  Though since it's only her death which has been retconned, other consequences of that decision will still hopefully persist - there should still be a dragon cult in the frostbacks, and Leliana's opinion of the Warden should be different.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Yes, Oghren in DA:A >.< *fixed original post* Just knocked out? Now *that* I would consider a poor excuse. Especially if the fight showed you cutting his head off. :/

 that is a poor excuse, as this thread has stated many times over. Flashy game mechanics do not constitute game canon. Only if it shows a beheading in a cutscene can it be considered canon, because that's shown to happen outside of flashy game mechanics.

Excusing an NPC's 'death' because the killing blow wasn't REALLY a killing blow is a poor excuse in my books.

If the party can overcome Zevran in his first appearance and then have the PC recognise he's unconscious rather than dead, they could have done the same for Oghren. Not doing so was a plot convenience for DA:A, 'flashy graphics' be damned.

Gaider has said himself we don't have to like it, and I don't--in that case. But I'm not going to lose any sleep over it (and I doubt he will either ).

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 05 avril 2011 - 12:15 .

[TEWR]

KLUME777 wrote...

Which means they retconed her, which is very disjointing for someone that killed her and brings you out of the experiance.

It also means that your decisions in DAO do not matter.

and this is what makes me laugh (now my dicky self is starting to show people. Not completely, just starting to). One, ONE, choice out of fifty is seemingly rendered pointless and that means that the whole entire game's choices had no effect whatsoever.

By that logic, the following things out of many I can list are true.

• letting Avernus live? Nope doesn't matter even though you can find notes of his research
• letting Sophia live? Nope doesn't matter. There's just some other demon possessed corpse of a Warden Commander from a few centuries ago
• Siding with the Dalish? Nope doesn't matter, those Dalish Assassins (one of whom is the daughter of Danyla) aren't from that clan, even though they say so.
• Alistair becoming king? nope doesn't matter. It's just some other Fereldan Grey Warden with a love for cheese (he better revert to his old appearance)

And it's just as the other poster said (Wulfram was it? Idk). There should still be consequences from that choice. The Urn has been defiled, the cult of Andraste is still culting hard, and Leliana should have a different opinion of the Warden. At the very least she should only severely dislike that choice of his, but realize that it was for a greater purpose, however misguided his/her choice was.

[TEWR]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Yes, Oghren in DA:A >.< *fixed original post* Just knocked out? Now *that* I would consider a poor excuse. Especially if the fight showed you cutting his head off. :/

 that is a poor excuse, as this thread has stated many times over. Flashy game mechanics do not constitute game canon. Only if it shows a beheading in a cutscene can it be considered canon, because that's shown to happen outside of flashy game mechanics.

Excusing an NPC's 'death' because the killing blow wasn't REALLY a killing blow is a poor excuse in my books.

If the party can overcome Zevran in his first appearance and then have the PC recognise he's unconscious rather than dead, they could have done the same for Oghren. Not doing so was a plot convenience for DA:A, 'flashy graphics' be damned.

Gaider has said himself we don't have to like it, and I don't--in that case. But I'm not going to lose any sleep over it (and I doubt he will either ).

I am not 'excusing' an NPC's death. But the game deciding "You can end this battle with a flashy beheading" at a random moment is NOT canon. It's a randomized part of battle.

She can be killed yes. David Gaider has said "If you killed her, we have an explanation to that too." But saying that a beheading animation outside of a cutscene is canon is a poor excuse, like it or not. I am not saying she didn't die. Let me repeat: I am not saying she couldn't die, depending on how you play the game. I'm saying the argument of "I beheaded her!" is a poor argument.

edit: I've also never killed Oghren, so I don't know if it's equivalent to a random battle with hurlocks where no cutscene afterwards happens or if it is like Zevran.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 avril 2011 - 12:30 .

[KLUME777]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

No, Flemeth is not a retcon, it was expained very clearly in Origins and made sense in the lore that she didn't truly die. Thats obvious. Same goes for Wynne, and she never even died, she was near death and then a spirit joined with her. And how can that be a retcon when it happened before you get her? Theres nothing too retcon with Wynne.

Are you sure? Are you forgetting you can kill Wynne at the Urn of Sacred Ashes, the very same place you can kill Leliana? And then Wynne reappears in DA:A.

Im not excusing Awakening either, it suffers just as much. I did not play Awakening for my Warden save that died killing the Archdemon because it retcons that ending (i did play Awakening for my main cannon save where my Warden took the dark ritual).

However, since Wynne is just a small cameo and has nothing to do with the main story, and it is an expansion pack, it is not as bad compared to Lelianna been a major important character for DA2 and probably DA3, and this is the sequal not an expansion.

Awakening is not excused, but DA2 does it worse.

[KLUME777]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Which means they retconed her, which is very disjointing for someone that killed her and brings you out of the experiance.

It also means that your decisions in DAO do not matter.

and this is what makes me laugh (now my dicky self is starting to show people. Not completely, just starting to). One, ONE, choice out of fifty is seemingly rendered pointless and that means that the whole entire game's choices had no effect whatsoever.

By that logic, the following things out of many I can list are true.

• letting Avernus live? Nope doesn't matter even though you can find notes of his research
• letting Sophia live? Nope doesn't matter. There's just some other demon possessed corpse of a Warden Commander from a few centuries ago
• Siding with the Dalish? Nope doesn't matter, those Dalish Assassins (one of whom is the daughter of Danyla) aren't from that clan, even though they say so.
• Alistair becoming king? nope doesn't matter. It's just some other Fereldan Grey Warden with a love for cheese (he better revert to his old appearance)

And it's just as the other poster said (Wulfram was it? Idk). There should still be consequences from that choice. The Urn has been defiled, the cult of Andraste is still culting hard, and Leliana should have a different opinion of the Warden. At the very least she should only severely dislike that choice of his, but realize that it was for a greater purpose, however misguided his/her choice was.

It doesnt matter if i kill Ogrhen or not, hes gonna live anyway. It doesn't matter if i kill Wynne or not, shes gonna live anyway. It doesnt matter if i kill Leliana or not, shes gonna live anyway. It doesnt matter if i kill Zevran or not, hes gonna live anyway. It doesnt matter if Anders lives or not, hes gonna live anyway. It doesnt matter if i die when i kill the Archemon, im gonna live anyway. It makes it very jarring and pulls you out of the experience when this happens. Imagine if the deaths in ME2's Suicide mission didn't matter, there gonna be in ME3 anyway.

Modifié par KLUME777, 05 avril 2011 - 12:50 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Yes, Oghren in DA:A >.< *fixed original post* Just knocked out? Now *that* I would consider a poor excuse. Especially if the fight showed you cutting his head off. :/

 that is a poor excuse, as this thread has stated many times over. Flashy game mechanics do not constitute game canon. Only if it shows a beheading in a cutscene can it be considered canon, because that's shown to happen outside of flashy game mechanics.

Excusing an NPC's 'death' because the killing blow wasn't REALLY a killing blow is a poor excuse in my books.

If the party can overcome Zevran in his first appearance and then have the PC recognise he's unconscious rather than dead, they could have done the same for Oghren. Not doing so was a plot convenience for DA:A, 'flashy graphics' be damned.

Gaider has said himself we don't have to like it, and I don't--in that case. But I'm not going to lose any sleep over it (and I doubt he will either ).

I am not 'excusing' an NPC's death. But the game deciding "You can end this battle with a flashy beheading" at a random moment is NOT canon. It's a randomized part of battle.

I agree that it's a randomised part of battle, but I have to debate your definition of canon. If it happened in that game, it's canon for that game. It *happened*, random or not, in that game. So I'm sorry, I disagree that the argument of "I beheaded her!" is a poor one--I think it's quite valid for people who had that happen in their playthroughs. *shrug* So we will leave it there I guess.

Note that I am not saying that a beheaded Leliana can't come back; that all depends on the explanation we don't yet have. But a beheaded Oghren coming back because he was only 'unconscious' doesn't fly in this situation. XD

edit: I've also never killed Oghren, so I don't know if it's equivalent to a random battle with hurlocks where no cutscene afterwards happens or if it is like Zevran.

It's a simple battle scene with Oghren.

[TEWR]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote....

I agree that it's a randomised part of battle, but I have to debate your definition of canon. If it happened in that game, it's canon for that game. It *happened*, random or not, in that game. So I'm sorry, I disagree that the argument of "I beheaded her!" is a poor one--I think it's quite valid for people who had that happen in their playthroughs. *shrug* So we will leave it there I guess.

I just want to say one more thing then we'll leave it at a standstill. The problem is is that it is random. Meaning that certain people will get the beheading animation in places that other people didn't. So I could go "Man you beheaded Kolgrim?! I wanted to do that!" So for a beheading to be considered canon is asking a lot, when there are many variables at play here.

It was just in there as a way for us to revel in the combat deaths. It wasn't meant to be taken seriously.

now, let's start standstilling =)

[TEWR]

KLUME777 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Which means they retconed her, which is very disjointing for someone that killed her and brings you out of the experiance.

It also means that your decisions in DAO do not matter.

and this is what makes me laugh (now my dicky self is starting to show people. Not completely, just starting to). One, ONE, choice out of fifty is seemingly rendered pointless and that means that the whole entire game's choices had no effect whatsoever.

By that logic, the following things out of many I can list are true.

• letting Avernus live? Nope doesn't matter even though you can find notes of his research
  
• letting Sophia live? Nope doesn't matter. There's just some other demon possessed corpse of a Warden Commander from a few centuries ago
  
• Siding with the Dalish? Nope doesn't matter, those Dalish Assassins (one of whom is the daughter of Danyla) aren't from that clan, even though they say so.
  
• Alistair becoming king? nope doesn't matter. It's just some other Fereldan Grey Warden with a love for cheese (he better revert to his old appearance)

And it's just as the other poster said (Wulfram was it? Idk). There should still be consequences from that choice. The Urn has been defiled, the cult of Andraste is still culting hard, and Leliana should have a different opinion of the Warden. At the very least she should only severely dislike that choice of his, but realize that it was for a greater purpose, however misguided his/her choice was.

It doesnt matter if i kill Ogrhen or not, hes gonna live anyway. It doesn't matter if i kill Wynne or not, shes gonna live anyway. It doesnt matter if i kill Leliana or not, shes gonna live anyway. It doesnt matter if i kill Zevran or not, hes gonna live anyway. It doesnt matter if Anders lives or not, hes gonna live anyway. It doesnt matter if i die when i kill the Archemon, im gonna live anyway. It makes it very jarring and pulls you out of the experience when this happens. Imagine if the deaths in ME2's Suicide mission didn't matter, there gonna be in ME3 anyway.

• Zevran appearing in a DA2 playthrough when he was killed in DA:O is a bug, nothing more.
• Leliana has a grander role for Thedas that could've been decided anywhere between Origins' completion by the devs to the final days of DA2.
• Oghren I can't explain.
• Wynne has a spirit of faith keeping her alive, but even that should go only so far. Take it only as a bug like Zevran.
• How do you know your Warden's death is the same Warden that Leliana and Cassandra were referring to? Granted it's stretching it to think of it as anyone else, even the OWC. But still, how do you know that's who it was?

Also, I have to play the ME series. I've only played a tiny portion of it.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

KLUME777 wrote...

Im not excusing Awakening either, it suffers just as much. I did not play Awakening for my Warden save that died killing the Archdemon because it retcons that ending (i did play Awakening for my main cannon save where my Warden took the dark ritual).

Oh Maker, really? You're seriously bringing the tired old resurrected Warden into this?

When will people get it through their heads that the retcon is for their CONVENIENCE so they don't have to play through the entire damned Denerim siege again in order to retcon their own game the long way? >.< If Bioware hadn't provided that option and ONLY allowed people to create a new Orlesian Warden, people would have whined they couldn't import their dead PC!

ARGH. I'm sorry, but this argument just riles me up. Because it's STUPID. I don't consider it a valid retcon situation.

However, since Wynne is just a small cameo and has nothing to do with the main story, and it is an expansion pack, it is not as bad compared to Lelianna been a major important character for DA2 and probably DA3, and this is the sequal not an expansion.

Minor or major, it doesn't change the fact that Leliana reappearing is not a retcon if there is a reason behind it. You just don't know what it is yet.

Yes, I understand it's frustrating to have NPCs drop left right and centre only to come back to life (Zevran isn't supposed to return in DA2 if you killed him, FWIW. If he did in your game, it's a bug). Personally I feel it's a little cheap to turn something as major as death into a minor inconvenience, but if that's the way the devs want to do it then they can and will, and we can b!tch about it forever.

[Wulfram]

Leliana not being dead if killed in Origins is not a retcon if the Devs always intended her not to be dead - in which case the writing in Origins was pretty rubbish, and they should have stopped the death animations from playing for her - or if they're allowing actual resurrection into the setting, which I strongly doubt.

But if Leliana was written as dead in Origins and then is made not to have died, then that's a retcon, even if they give a justification for it.

[Lord_Valandil]

didymos1120 wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Urgh. Again the excuse of "The decapitation is only for show".

It's not an "excuse".  It's a plain fact: your save file does not include plot flags for any decapitation, shattering, immolation, or whatever, be they perpetrated against former friendlies or not.  To the game, things are either "dead" or "not dead", and that is it. The only beheading I know of, in the entire game, that "truly" happened was Loghain's, and that's not due to there actually being a "Loghain was beheaded" plot flag, but because it was in the script (though not actually shown, amusingly enough.  Just heavily implied by the cutscene).

I am pleased to see, however, that my "amazing" prediction that people would not stop bringing this up was fulfilled. Fear me!  I has powers!

I'm afraid of the Crocochicken now.
But seriously, though. It's not the decapitation, is the fact that she is dead. Not unconscious or sleeping.
So, if Bioware comes with an explanation like "Oh she was just unconscious, then woke up and joined the seekers"...well, that would be really lame.

Wulfram wrote...

they
should have stopped the death animations from playing for her

Exactly.

Modifié par Lord_Valandil, 05 avril 2011 - 01:32 .

[Lord_Valandil]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Im not excusing Awakening either, it suffers just as much. I did not play Awakening for my Warden save that died killing the Archdemon because it retcons that ending (i did play Awakening for my main cannon save where my Warden took the dark ritual).

Oh Maker, really? You're seriously bringing the tired old resurrected Warden into this?

When will people get it through their heads that the retcon is for their CONVENIENCE so they don't have to play through the entire damned Denerim siege again in order to retcon their own game the long way? >.< If Bioware hadn't provided that option and ONLY allowed people to create a new Orlesian Warden, people would have whined they couldn't import their dead PC!

ARGH. I'm sorry, but this argument just riles me up. Because it's STUPID. I don't consider it a valid retcon situation.

It's still kind of an stupid situation, as you can import an Awakening file where your Warden is *dead*.
A better solution would have been to import the choices and let you play as an Orlesian Warden.

[Maria Caliban]

As we're arguing semantics, Leliana being alive isn't a retcon because player actions aren't canon. If I play a dalish female who killed herself to stop the archdemon and BioWare later says that the Warden was a human noble who did the dark ritual, that's not a retcon, it's canon.

For Leliana being alive to be a retcon, BioWare, not your specific playthrough, would have to say that the Warden killed her during at the Urn of Sacred Ashes.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 05 avril 2011 - 01:41 .

[Noatz]

Wulfram wrote...

Leliana not being dead if killed in Origins is not a retcon if the Devs always intended her not to be dead - in which case the writing in Origins was pretty rubbish, and they should have stopped the death animations from playing for her - or if they're allowing actual resurrection into the setting, which I strongly doubt.

But if Leliana was written as dead in Origins and then is made not to have died, then that's a retcon, even if they give a justification for it.

I don't think the devs intended any specific outcome for Leliana at the time of writing her potential demise in Origins. If they knew then that they would want her for a larger role in an ongoing plot they probably would not have included you killing her (she would have merely left your party rather than turn on you if you defiled the urn).

However an explained retcon is a significantly different animal to a "pure" retcon. You could call Flemeth's return an explained retcon and people don't whine about that, in fact depending on the explanation they end up giving for Leliana it could turn out to be something extremely similar. It's all a far cry from Blizzard Entertainment turning round to their community and saying "yeah so, you know all that stuff about Sargeras being affected by the evil nature of the Eredar race? Well, never happened:whistle:. Because we want space goats in this expansion."

People are being so imcredibly pedantic about this one tiny (explained) retcon it beggars belief.

Modifié par Noatz, 05 avril 2011 - 01:44 .

[Wulfram]

Flemeth not being actually dead was strongly suggested in the original game - IIRC Morrigan pretty much says she won't stay dead when you tell her about it - so it's really not the same as this case.

[foam]

To be quite honest, I don't care about the lasting significance of my choices. I just want to roleplay. Choices let me do that, and while it's nice to have a bunch of different outcomes, it's not all that important to me. If a character comes back to life, I'm going to assume that it isn't without reason.

[Lord_Valandil]

Maria Caliban wrote...

As we're arguing semantics, Leliana being alive isn't a retcon because player actions aren't canon.

Riiiiiight.
Which leads me to the point...yet again.
If player actions don't matter, then what's the freaking point of making them?

Just drop 'em already.

[Wulfram]

The players actions are canon within their own continuity

[Talogrungi]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

As we're arguing semantics, Leliana being alive isn't a retcon because player actions aren't canon.

Riiiiiight.
Which leads me to the point...yet again.
If player actions don't matter, then what's the freaking point of making them?

Just drop 'em already.

Well, that one's easy. Replay factor.

Even if player choice is merely an illusion, it's a strong enough one to galvanise players to replay the game again in order to see what happens when they make different ones.

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

foam wrote...

To be quite honest, I don't care about the lasting significance of my choices. I just want to roleplay. Choices let me do that, and while it's nice to have a bunch of different outcomes, it's not all that important to me. If a character comes back to life, I'm going to assume that it isn't without reason.

Exactly.  I remember early on in Baldur's Gate 2 when I encountered Xar and Montaron and immediately asked "Aren't you DEAD?"  to which I got the response "Possibly."  When Bioware first announced that choices in ME1 would carry on to the sequels I thought they were asking for trouble, and oh look, they've found some.

[Ymladdych]

Wulfram wrote...
Flemeth not being actually dead was strongly suggested in the original game - IIRC Morrigan pretty much says she won't stay dead when you tell her about it - so it's really not the same as this case.

Okay.  And there are several hints that your Warden might be in the Fade during the Urn quest.  As everyone who knows their lore knows...everything in the Fade is a lie.

Mage PC: "You're not Jowan."
Jowan Phantasm:  "I knew I couldn't fool you.  But are you really here?  Are you in the Fade, perhaps?"

Plus, even though not everyone plays a mage, I believe you still encounter a fake doppelganger from your past, do you not?  You also encounter other doppelganger phantasms of your own party and historical figures.  Why is it hard to believe that the party you *thought* was real, wasn't real?

I was writing tongue in cheek when I called it a lyrium acid trip before, but it really is a valid explanation for Leliana and Wynne...one that's been right in front of our faces since DAO.  (At least for people willing to accept that there *is* a valid explanation.)

Modifié par Ymladdych, 05 avril 2011 - 02:04 .

[Lord_Valandil]

Talogrungi wrote...
Well, that one's easy. Replay factor.

Even if player choice is merely an illusion, it's a strong enough one to galvanise players to replay the game again in order to see what happens when they make different ones.

Replay factor would be vastly improved if the choices actually mattered.
To know that they don't do ****, even though they promise and advertise an actual CHANGE, doesn't really makes me want to waste another 40+ hours.

[Talogrungi]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...
Well, that one's easy. Replay factor.

Even if player choice is merely an illusion, it's a strong enough one to galvanise players to replay the game again in order to see what happens when they make different ones.

Replay factor would be vastly improved if the choices actually mattered.
To know that they don't do ****, even though they promise and advertise an actual CHANGE, doesn't really makes me want to waste another 40+ hours.

Kinda depends on your motivations, doesn't it?

If you're replaying the game because you enjoy the game and want to play through it again in a different way, then you're wasting nothing because you're playing a game that you enjoy. .. this was never a problem when (re)playing games like KOTOR.

Import-to-sequel is a pretty new thing, and yes .. it's kinda weak at the moment. It will improve.