665 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord_Valandil]

Talogrungi wrote...

If you're replaying the game because you enjoy the game and want to play through it again in a different way, then you're wasting nothing because you're playing a game that you enjoy. .. this was never a problem when (re)playing games like KOTOR.

Import-to-sequel is a pretty new thing, and yes .. it's kinda weak at the moment. It will improve.

I really enjoy DA: Origins, it's one of my all-time favorite games.
I don't know if I'm in the minority, but I really want my choices to make an effect.

[ejoslin]

My theory on why they brought Leliana back (*grin* I don't care if it's considered a retcon -- they're obviously not respecting that particular choice as is their right). She was probably THE most often romanced character according to uploaded data. So bring her back because obviously she is well loved.

The fact that she had a bug that turned on her romance inappropriately (someone forgot to put a condition on a line which meant a nice dialog choice ALWAYS started the romance) probably wasn't taken into consideration.

But, you know, at the end of the day, it's their story. Though I often kill Leliana, I'm curious how their story will unfold anyway.

Anyway, my theory may be wrong, but I'm sticking with it anyway.

[Aradace]

ejoslin wrote...

My theory on why they brought Leliana back (*grin* I don't care if it's considered a retcon -- they're obviously not respecting that particular choice as is their right). She was probably THE most often romanced character according to uploaded data. So bring her back because obviously she is well loved.

The fact that she had a bug that turned on her romance inappropriately (someone forgot to put a condition on a line which meant a nice dialog choice ALWAYS started the romance) probably wasn't taken into consideration.

which is precisely what I say, why even give us choice at all if all theyr'e going to do is take the popular choice and apply it.

[Talogrungi]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

I really enjoy DA: Origins, it's one of my all-time favorite games.
I don't know if I'm in the minority, but I really want my choices to make an effect.

Mass Effect is one of mine, and it also suffers from the lack of impact of player choices, but as I said above, it's a relatively new game mechanic for game choices to import into sequels, so any impact is an improvement upon what we had before (i.e. zero impact).

Improvement is, of course, welcome .. and I expect to see it in future games.

[Herr Uhl]

ejoslin wrote...

Anyway, my theory may be wrong, but I'm sticking with it anyway.

I think it is wrong. She has however had more exposure than other companions, through Leliana's song. She is rather well-liked and her beliefs could be akin to that of the new divine.

Well, most aside from Oghren and Anders anyways.

[ejoslin]

Herr Uhl wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Anyway, my theory may be wrong, but I'm sticking with it anyway.

I think it is wrong. She has however had more exposure than other companions, through Leliana's song. She is rather well-liked and her beliefs could be akin to that of the new divine.

Well, most aside from Oghren and Anders anyways.

But that's also my theory as to why Leliana got her own DLC :innocent:  Even Morrigan's didn't feature her so much as just give her story a bit more of an ending, especially for Wardens who loved her.

[Herr Uhl]

ejoslin wrote...

But that's also my theory as to why Leliana got her own DLC :innocent:  Even Morrigan's didn't feature her so much as just give her story a bit more of an ending, especially for Wardens who loved her.

Leliana was the one who had the most obvious setup for a prequel. You're seemingly saying that she got it all because of a bug rather than her character. I disagree, the developers may happen to like her regardless of telemetry, and despite the bug most liked her as a character overall.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...
She is rather well-liked and her beliefs could be akin to that of the new divine.

Yes, I thik she'd agree with the new divine.

[ejoslin]

Herr Uhl, I'm trying to be playful here! I guess it doesn't work too well with text...

[Curlain]

ejoslin wrote...

My theory on why they brought Leliana back (*grin* I don't care if it's considered a retcon -- they're obviously not respecting that particular choice as is their right). She was probably THE most often romanced character according to uploaded data. So bring her back because obviously she is well loved.

The fact that she had a bug that turned on her romance inappropriately (someone forgot to put a condition on a line which meant a nice dialog choice ALWAYS started the romance) probably wasn't taken into consideration.

But, you know, at the end of the day, it's their story. Though I often kill Leliana, I'm curious how their story will unfold anyway.

Anyway, my theory may be wrong, but I'm sticking with it anyway.

Oh it's not just that, Leliana's death in the Sacred Ashes is a well known bug, that's why it never happened.  Their are hoping to get around to fix it soon 

Modifié par Curlain, 05 avril 2011 - 03:18 .

[Volourn]

"However, since Wynne is just a small cameo and has nothing to do with the main story, and it is an expansion pack, it is not as bad compared to Lelianna been a major important character for DA2 and probably DA3, and this is the sequal not an expansion. "

You funny and silly.

Anyways, it should not be that big deal that lelianna is alive. It's nto the end of world even if it is a recon, a plot twist, or whatever. Get over it.

Besdies, the DA2 npcs are betetr than the DA1 npcs so bah to lelianna. What a loser she is.

[Noatz]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...
Well, that one's easy. Replay factor.

Even if player choice is merely an illusion, it's a strong enough one to galvanise players to replay the game again in order to see what happens when they make different ones.

Replay factor would be vastly improved if the choices actually mattered.
To know that they don't do ****, even though they promise and advertise an actual CHANGE, doesn't really makes me want to waste another 40+ hours.

Your logic is so asinine. My choice to kill Leliana didn't affect the evolution of the story therefore NONE of my choices affect the evolution of the story.

Great, lets all use your reasoning. My builders didn't show up on time. Therefore NONE will ever show up on time. My German mechanic proved incompetent. Therefore NO German mechanics are competent. It's nothing but stupid generalisation that for some reason people on the internet feel is a viable method of arguing a point.

Secondly what exactly are you expecting? For them to write a new character just for you? For them to cut Leliana out of the story altogether ignoring all the people who like her character (as evidenced by the DLC) because you're butthurt over it? Be realistic. They wrote a character that proved mostly popular and they felt had potential to help tell their story, so they used her. The main thing to take away from David Gaider's comments here is that they will most likely explain why she is still alive for those who killed her in future content.

[Lord_Valandil]

Noatz wrote...

Secondly what exactly are you expecting? For them to write a new character just for you? For them to cut Leliana out of the story altogether ignoring all the people who like her character (as evidenced by the DLC) because you're butthurt over it? Be realistic. They wrote a character that proved mostly popular and they felt had potential to help tell their story, so they used her. The main thing to take away from David Gaider's comments here is that they will most likely explain why she is still alive for those who killed her in future content.

Hahahaha, thanks for understanding my point, buddy.
Yeah, I wanted them to write a character for me, that's the point. Uh huh.

At least you made me laugh. That's something.

[AlexXIV]

Matter-of-factly most people did either like Leliana or at least not kill her. In their 'canon' playthrough anyway. I only once almost killed her when I defiled the ashes to unlock the reaver spec and she wasn't really happy about that. So I did it again the 'nice' way and killed all the cultists and the dragon. And I am not a Leliana fan or anything, I liked Morrigan much more. So I wonder how many people will really hold it against David that Leliana gets an important role in DA3? I don't think many really. And Anders ... oh well. He only really dies in the epilogue. And only if the player fails to upgrade the keep properly. It really only needs a small patch to fix the epilogue saying that Anders and Justice disappeared instead of saying they died.

[didymos1120]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
I agree that it's a randomised part of battle, but I have to debate your definition of canon. If it happened in that game, it's canon for that game. It *happened*, random or not, in that game. So I'm sorry, I disagree that the argument of "I beheaded her!" is a poor one--I think it's quite valid for people who had that happen in their playthroughs. *shrug* So we will leave it there I guess.

But it is not something the game itself actually pays any attention to once that moment has passed.  The only thing it recognizes, via a plot flag, is that she died.  You can argue that the game should have cared about the manner of death (I mean, I've never tried, but you could probably shatter Leliana too.  Rather like the goldfish of urban legend, the game will still just forget you did so about five seconds after it happens), but that won't change the fact that it doesn't.  There's simply no way for the devs to do anything about that, because the information is never recorded anywhere (OK, well they could release a special patch for all platforms to do just that, but....).  All they can do, and it apparently is what they will do if Gaider's posts are anything to go by, is acknowledge that she was indeed dead.  At least for a little while, anyway.

Modifié par didymos1120, 05 avril 2011 - 04:15 .

[didymos1120]

Wulfram wrote...

Leliana not being dead if killed in Origins is not a retcon if the Devs always intended her not to be dead

No, intent at the time has nothing to do with it.  It's only a retcon if they say that the death never actually happened.  Then they've retroactively changed the continuity.  Whether or not her death was originally intended to be permanent, or assumed to be by those players who killed her, such was never actually stated.  She's just out of the story from then on.  Retcons always and only apply to what has been definitively established.

[didymos1120]

Lord_Valandil wrote...
But seriously, though. It's not the decapitation, is the fact that she is dead. Not unconscious or sleeping.
So, if Bioware comes with an explanation like "Oh she was just unconscious, then woke up and joined the seekers"...well, that would be really lame.

Yeah, no argument there: that would be lame (and lazy writing too).

[Wulfram]

didymos1120 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Leliana not being dead if killed in Origins is not a retcon if the Devs always intended her not to be dead

No, intent at the time has nothing to do with it.  It's only a retcon if they say that the death never actually happened.  Then they've retroactively changed the continuity.  Whether or not her death was originally intended to be permanent, or assumed to be by those players who killed her, such was never actually stated.  She's just out of the story from then on.  Retcons always and only apply to what has been definitively established.

I concluded that sentence with "or if they're allowing actual resurrection into the setting, which I strongly doubt", so yes I agree that if her death was temporary it wouldn't be a retcon.  Its if they start claiming she was only injured where it starts being a retcon.

[Noatz]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Noatz wrote...

Secondly what exactly are you expecting? For them to write a new character just for you? For them to cut Leliana out of the story altogether ignoring all the people who like her character (as evidenced by the DLC) because you're butthurt over it? Be realistic. They wrote a character that proved mostly popular and they felt had potential to help tell their story, so they used her. The main thing to take away from David Gaider's comments here is that they will most likely explain why she is still alive for those who killed her in future content.

Hahahaha, thanks for understanding my point, buddy.
Yeah, I wanted them to write a character for me, that's the point. Uh huh.

At least you made me laugh. That's something.

Considering your demonstrated proclivity for deficient argumentation I suppose I should find your inability to understand the potential consequences of your alleged point unsurprising.

Just think, for a second, about what you expect to happen when you attempt to indicate (via aforementioned stupid generalisation) that "player choices don't matter AT ALL WAAAGH". What will Bioware have to do to accomodate all your myriad choices in their ongoing PLOT?

As a side observation I feel it is worth noting that people who select the illogical options in game such as defiling the urn are apparently also the ones who come to the forum and argue illogically.

[Lord_Valandil]

Noatz wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Noatz wrote...

Secondly what exactly are you expecting? For them to write a new character just for you? For them to cut Leliana out of the story altogether ignoring all the people who like her character (as evidenced by the DLC) because you're butthurt over it? Be realistic. They wrote a character that proved mostly popular and they felt had potential to help tell their story, so they used her. The main thing to take away from David Gaider's comments here is that they will most likely explain why she is still alive for those who killed her in future content.

Hahahaha, thanks for understanding my point, buddy.
Yeah, I wanted them to write a character for me, that's the point. Uh huh.

At least you made me laugh. That's something.

Considering your demonstrated proclivity for deficient argumentation I suppose I should find your inability to understand the potential consequences of your alleged point unsurprising.

Just think, for a second, about what you expect to happen when you attempt to indicate (via aforementioned stupid generalisation) that "player choices don't matter AT ALL WAAAGH". What will Bioware have to do to accomodate all your myriad choices in their ongoing PLOT?

As a side observation I feel it is worth noting that people who select the illogical options in game such as defiling the urn are apparently also the ones who come to the forum and argue illogically.

You're the one who came here calling me butthurt and that my logic is flawed, so don't tell me about "deficient argumentation".
Take the time to read the thread. Illogical options, whatever. They're there.
Is it more logical to spare Leliana's life?

[Noatz]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Noatz wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Noatz wrote...

Secondly what exactly are you expecting? For them to write a new character just for you? For them to cut Leliana out of the story altogether ignoring all the people who like her character (as evidenced by the DLC) because you're butthurt over it? Be realistic. They wrote a character that proved mostly popular and they felt had potential to help tell their story, so they used her. The main thing to take away from David Gaider's comments here is that they will most likely explain why she is still alive for those who killed her in future content.

Hahahaha, thanks for understanding my point, buddy.
Yeah, I wanted them to write a character for me, that's the point. Uh huh.

At least you made me laugh. That's something.

Considering your demonstrated proclivity for deficient argumentation I suppose I should find your inability to understand the potential consequences of your alleged point unsurprising.

Just think, for a second, about what you expect to happen when you attempt to indicate (via aforementioned stupid generalisation) that "player choices don't matter AT ALL WAAAGH". What will Bioware have to do to accomodate all your myriad choices in their ongoing PLOT?

As a side observation I feel it is worth noting that people who select the illogical options in game such as defiling the urn are apparently also the ones who come to the forum and argue illogically.

You're the one who came here calling me butthurt and that my logic is flawed, so don't tell me about "deficient argumentation".
Take the time to read the thread. Illogical options, whatever. They're there.
Is it more logical to spare Leliana's life?

And you're the one spouting useless generalisations so don't tell me to not tell you about deficient argumentation.

And of course the options are there, they have every right to be. I just find it amusing that its the people who do the stupid things in game are also the ones saying stupid things on the forum.

I need to heal this Arl to unite Ferelden against the blight. This urn of Sacred Ashes of Sacred Ashes should do it. NO I HAVE A BETTER IDEA! LETS DEFILE IT! Oh the devout Andrastian companion I brought along is going to fight me over it. Who knew?

Modifié par Noatz, 05 avril 2011 - 05:05 .

[Xanfaus]

Talogrungi wrote...


...it's a relatively new game mechanic for game choices to import into sequels, so any impact is an improvement upon what we had before (i.e. zero impact).

Improvement is, of course, welcome .. and I expect to see it in future games.

I think that this is about the best that can be expected.

Hopefully a happy medium can be established so that more major choices can be carried over (whether its a companion's death or who ends up supporting who) without requiring virtually infinite amount of development time to account for all the possibilities. The bigger issue is that outside of this thread (and Mr. Gaider's response), I was not aware that that was the Dragon Age team's position, if not Bioware as a whole. I figured it would be exceedingly difficult to allow player choice to carry over between games, but I'll be lying if I said that I thought events like character deaths would be on the list of outcomes that might be changed.

Regardless, here's hoping that the mechanic is refined in the future.

edit:need to proofread better.

Modifié par Xanfaus, 05 avril 2011 - 05:09 .

[bigSarg]

I found a couple problems with the storyline,

First, if you play a mage how is it that you can run around the city casting spells (even in front of Templars) and no one questions it until around the end of act 2 and when you meet Meredith?

Second:  Aveline mentions that she was at Ostagar, but according to the DA:O storyline everyone at Ostagar died except Alistair and the main character, plus she mentions that she was going to meet Wesley at Ostagar but when you first meet her she is with him, even though none of the templars were at Ostagar?

I'm not trying to say that either of these are game breaking issues but it makes the storyline less believable.

There are a couple other problems I have with some of the characters from DA:O in DA2, meeting Alistair in DA2 didn't have any impact on the game what so ever, why he was even there makes no sense to me.  Merrill is totally different than she was in DA:O, if you played the Dalish starter area, she was confident and had an air of authority, but in DA2 she is nothing more than a mouse.  Isabel, Zevran and Nathaniel had the same personalities but looked a little different  (which is fine).  If your going to reuse characters please keep their personalities the same, even Anders seemed to be the same (albiet more annoying than before). 

[Avissel]

bigSarg wrote...

I found a couple problems with the storyline,

First, if you play a mage how is it that you can run around the city casting spells (even in front of Templars) and no one questions it until around the end of act 2 and when you meet Meredith?

Second:  Aveline mentions that she was at Ostagar, but according to the DA:O storyline everyone at Ostagar died except Alistair and the main character, plus she mentions that she was going to meet Wesley at Ostagar but when you first meet her she is with him, even though none of the templars were at Ostagar?

Nobodoy mention it for the simple reason that it would be a headache to have to constantly deal with the Templar's chaseing you around the city.



Actually Alistair and the PC are the only WARDENS to survive. There are atleast two characters in Origins that were at Ostigar and fled the battle when it started going poorly, or were just not at the main battlefield.

Aveline was at Ostigar and retreated back to Lothering. Wesley was nearby on buisness for the Order, but when he heard that Ostigar had fallen he headed for Lothering to try and find his wife, they meet there probably around the time the attack on Lothering began.

[Wulfram]

Wynne was at Ostagar and survived and mentions healing wounded so others survived.