665 réponses à ce sujet

[Alamar2078]

In the end when you're having a discussion / arguement / trying to convince someone ultimately at some level it DOES come down to "I'm right .. you're wrong ... how can you not see that"

[Icy Magebane]

@TheEthereal: Hm... fair enough. If I sound annoyed, it's because everyone seems to only look at things from their POV... saying what's logical and what isn't, etc... I'm not even interested in this topic anymore, but for some reason I felt I needed to say something about that. Maybe I shouldn't have singled you out though.

[Alamar2078]

The bad thing about logic is that you usually base your logic from a set of assumptions that you hold to be true without having to prove them. What is "logical" with one set of base assumptions is truely garbage with an opposed set of assumptions.

Either way I still feel like my role in the series has been diminished ...

[TEWR]

Any0day wrote...

Valid yes, but it's the stupid type of validity. One that has no logic to back up its reasoning, no matter how cleverly a person words their arguments. No one better take this as an attack on the writers and devs, because it's not. They put that choice in the game, and it's there.

I suppose the choice itself might be considered ''stupid'' by some within the context of say... a lawful good human; but is that same valid choice considered ''stupid'' by an evil dwarf who cares only for fortune and riches?

An evil dwarf who only cared about money would get more fortune and riches from killing Kolgrim and looting his corpse than defiling an urn/wastebin* and becoming a maniac who revels in death, receiving no reward whatsoever.


*tribute to Sten

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you mean by stupid, because ''stupid'' depends on context? A dwarf might think speaking to the Maker in visions and hearing voices in your head is pretty stupid; and tell Leliana she's freakin nuts - whereas an elf mage might understand more - and not consider it stupid at all.

I'm trying to figure out what to say in response to this. I have a rough idea, but I want to piece it together perfectly. I'll give my rough version right now, but no promises on it being perfect

Just the same, does that mean a human can consider dwarven religion stupid because they venerate their ancestors? Maybe so. But that's opinion, which shouldn't interfere in an action that many people will have varying opinions of. I just find it stupid to take advice from a man (Kolgrim) who is clearly insane, whose ancestors have murdered people for having differing opinions on what is happening, and who drinks blood. Not human blood, though that is bad in and of itself, but dragon's blood. Not to mention he acts like he knows what he's talking about when he doesn't know jack ****. He isn't a mage, nor has he studied magic in any way, shape or form, yet he professes to know how to undo magical things?

[TEWR]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@TheEthereal: Hm... fair enough. If I sound annoyed, it's because everyone seems to only look at things from their POV... saying what's logical and what isn't, etc... I'm not even interested in this topic anymore, but for some reason I felt I needed to say something about that. Maybe I shouldn't have singled you out though.

meh don't worry about it. In retrospect some of the stuff I said may have come off that way, but I try my best not to generalize. If I do, then mea maxima culpa. If I felt you had singled me out, believe me I would've shown it

Alamar bunch of numbers wrote...

The bad thing about logic is that you usually base your logic from a set of assumptions that you hold to be true without having to prove them. What is "logical" with one set of base assumptions is truely garbage with an opposed set of assumptions.

true enough.

Either way I still feel like my role in the series has been diminished...

I can understand that feeling right now, but the point that I try to stress is that people have been asked by the devs to be patient because an explanation will be given. They have one ready and will gladly show us. Maybe that means they're thinking it up right now and lied to us or they have it ready and are just making some sort of DLC for it. who knows. But people have shown, at least on this thread, that they can't be patient and already refute an explanation they haven't seen as just a "retcon" and "my choices no longer matter", despite us being told that if we killed her, there will be a suitable explanation for that scenario.

I guess all I want is for people to come together, agree to be patient, join hands, and sing Kumbayah.

or Why Can't We Be Friends. I'm not picky.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 avril 2011 - 11:56 .

[TJPags]

Meh, you know what?

The Maker did it.

I've read this thread since my last post here. Apparently, those of us bothered by this are wrong. They clearly intended her to be alive all along, they just gave us the option to kill her for ****s and giggles. And they clearly hinted that she wasn't dead, because . . .well, hell, we saw spirits in a place designed to show us spirits. After all, they have a reason - a reason created for just those people who made the choice to kill her.

Yup, she's the new chosen of the Maker. The Maker did it.

The Maker also brings Zev back if you killed him. And the Maker brought Ohgren back in DAA if you killed him. The Maker puts Wynne into DAA, not a bug. The Maker made the Architect alive too, in the Nathaniel quiz.

I've been convinced. How? By the power of the Maker, of course.

Congrats. You have a convert.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...

Meh, you know what?

The Maker did it.

I've read this thread since my last post here. Apparently, those of us bothered by this are wrong. They clearly intended her to be alive all along, they just gave us the option to kill her for ****s and giggles. And they clearly hinted that she wasn't dead, because . . .well, hell, we saw spirits in a place designed to show us spirits. After all, they have a reason - a reason created for just those people who made the choice to kill her.

Yup, she's the new chosen of the Maker. The Maker did it.

The Maker also brings Zev back if you killed him. And the Maker brought Ohgren back in DAA if you killed him. The Maker puts Wynne into DAA, not a bug. The Maker made the Architect alive too, in the Nathaniel quiz.

I've been convinced. How? By the power of the Maker, of course.

Congrats. You have a convert.

You know those two mages in Lake Calenhad that talk about omniscient and omnipresent beings that manipulate their world? I think they have the right idea.

[TEWR]

TJPags wrote...



The Maker also brings Zev back if you killed him. And the Maker brought Ohgren back in DAA if you killed him. The Maker puts Wynne into DAA, not a bug. The Maker made the Architect alive too, in the Nathaniel quiz.

Zev is a bug.
Oghren is..... I don't even know. Can't explain that one.
Wynne is a bug from a very buggy expansion pack.
The Architect is a bug as well.

So Oghren is the only one that's really deserving of a WTF in that list you just named. Kudos on the sarcasm though in your entire post. At least that's what it read like

[TJPags]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

TJPags wrote...



The Maker also brings Zev back if you killed him. And the Maker brought Ohgren back in DAA if you killed him. The Maker puts Wynne into DAA, not a bug. The Maker made the Architect alive too, in the Nathaniel quiz.

Zev is a bug.
Oghren is..... I don't even know. Can't explain that one.
Wynne is a bug from a very buggy expansion pack.
The Architect is a bug as well.

So Oghren is the only one that's really deserving of a WTF in that list you just named. Kudos on the sarcasm though in your entire post. At least that's what it read like

Complete sarcasm.

Guess Zev just didn't find the Maker's good side.  Sucks for him.

[Noatz]

Any0day wrote...

I suppose you don't know what an anology or example is?

Oh so now its an analogy eh? Well fine, Captain Backpeddle, but that was not how it was worded:?

You want to know what's pretty stupid? Someone who tries to define what ''stupid'' is in in the context of a video game. If it doesn't kill you, if it doesn't end the adventure, if it works, then it's not stupid. If the writer wrote the choice or option into the game, then it's valid. Stop saying it's not valid because it fits some arbitrary description of what you happen to define as stupid; it's so closeminded it's not even funny.  I suppose you don't understand what ''roleplaying'' is either, where my character might choose something that I myself wouldn't.

Why do you bring up validity, as if I actually argued it was wrong (from the context of canon) to choose to defile the ashes? That's not what I said AT ALL. A decision being logical does not equate to it being canon, because people do stupid things all the time - like accusing others of somehow not understanding roleplaying when if you had actually read their reply you would see that wasn't the case. And on that note people ostensibly role playing usually incorporate their own tendencies into their character since divorcing yourself entirely from your own personality is not something people commonly do (it's called acting, and believe it or not there is skill in it). This is the logical base for the observation I made, but you seem intent on missing the point one way or another so lets just forget it.

...And you weren't?

I was only pointing out the generalisations, so no, I wasn't.

Oh, you are just too cute. So, the voice acting for Merril in DAO must've been a huge waste because the only time you saw it is if you happened to roll the Dalish Elf Origin story - please... Have you even coded anything outside scripting, once the code works, VO work is a walk in the park. Yes, its costs money - that's why I'm buying the game though - I'm paying money for a unique experience.

Who cares about coding? It's irrelevant to this discussion, you (erroneously) brought it up in the first place.

You say VA work is a walk in the park? Well that sounds like an uneducated opinion, it may be technically simple but there are things like the VA's availability and yes, their fee. And while you try and use the injured customer argument here you have apparantly forgotten that Bioware are a business and that hiring a VA to record lines purely to accomodate the minority that killed Leliana in DA:O is never going to be cost effective. And if you won't see reason on that front then consider that the money they would spend hiring that VA could be better spent elsewhere on your unique experience.

I don't see myself convincing you to change your mind on how obtuse and remiss you're being trying to argue points that are not only not valid (because Bioware themselves have done them in the past) or are your personal opinion, and sorry - the universe doesn't revolve around you. I'm responding just to point out to others how ridiculous your argument is.

You can't just say someones argument is ridiculous without adequately displaying why. If everyone thought like you dialogue would consist of:

Person 1: You're stupid
Person 2: You're stupid
Person 1: You're stupid
Person 2: You're stupid
...

You aren't even arguing the correct things here, so do yourself a favour and either properly begin understanding what is typed or cease replying.

Modifié par Noatz, 06 avril 2011 - 12:25 .

[TEWR]

TJPags wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

TJPags wrote...



The Maker also brings Zev back if you killed him. And the Maker brought Ohgren back in DAA if you killed him. The Maker puts Wynne into DAA, not a bug. The Maker made the Architect alive too, in the Nathaniel quiz.

Zev is a bug.
Oghren is..... I don't even know. Can't explain that one.
Wynne is a bug from a very buggy expansion pack.
The Architect is a bug as well.

So Oghren is the only one that's really deserving of a WTF in that list you just named. Kudos on the sarcasm though in your entire post. At least that's what it read like

Complete sarcasm.

Guess Zev just didn't find the Maker's good side.  Sucks for him.

The Maker must be a ruthless, horny b*stard, only showing his favor for the ladies.

[Any0day]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


I can understand that feeling right now, but the point that I try to stress is that people have been asked by the devs to be patient because an explanation will be given. They have one ready and will gladly show us. Maybe that means they're thinking it up right now and lied to us or they have it ready and are just making some sort of DLC for it.
...
I guess all I want is for people to come together, agree to be patient, join hands, and sing Kumbayah.

or Why Can't We Be Friends. I'm not picky.

I'm totally fine if they have an explanation lined up; all I've said from the beginning is that I'd feel really cheapened if they just basically give no explanation at all - I'm certainly not arguing that I get an entirely different game because I chose to do something very few chose to do. I don't even know why I'm still reading this thread to be honest with you, I just end up getting pissed off when people tell me I played the game wrong and that whatever they say is correct canon. (previous comment not directed at you)

[TEWR]

Any0day wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


I can understand that feeling right now, but the point that I try to stress is that people have been asked by the devs to be patient because an explanation will be given. They have one ready and will gladly show us. Maybe that means they're thinking it up right now and lied to us or they have it ready and are just making some sort of DLC for it.
...
I guess all I want is for people to come together, agree to be patient, join hands, and sing Kumbayah.

or Why Can't We Be Friends. I'm not picky.

I'm totally fine if they have an explanation lined up; all I've said from the beginning is that I'd feel really cheapened if they just basically give no explanation at all - I'm certainly not arguing that I get an entirely different game because I chose to do something very few chose to do. I don't even know why I'm still reading this thread to be honest with you, I just end up getting pissed off when people tell me I played the game wrong and that whatever they say is correct canon. (previous comment not directed at you)

I don't think anyone has actually said you played the game wrong. I think all that's been said is that there is no justifiable logic to killing Leliana in the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest. You played the game your way, and that's cool. Your way is the right way. That's why there were so many choices.

But look at it from if you were your Warden, if the events of Origins were real. Would you really bring a friend or the woman you're in love with, a devout Andrastian (whom prior to you agreeing to Kolgrim's proposal told you she didn't like the idea) to a holy temple where you are now defiling the Ashes, kill her, and say you weren't at fault for making a stupid choice by bringing her along?

The only reason I'm still reading this thread myself is that I have yet to find another one to pounce upon. I'm a thread playa. When I'm done with one thread, I jump to the next, leaving all the other threads crying because they miss me.

[TJPags]

Actually, keep in mind, you go there to FIND the ashes . . not defile them. The option to defile them comes up once you get to Haven . . just before the Temple, actually.

Conceivably, and actually, you would have brought Leliana with you to FIND the Ashes - which makes sense.

[Any0day]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But look at it from if you were your Warden, if the events of Origins were real. Would you really bring a friend or the woman you're in love with, a devout Andrastian (whom prior to you agreeing to Kolgrim's proposal told you she didn't like the idea) to a holy temple where you are now defiling the Ashes, kill her, and say you weren't at fault for making a stupid choice by bringing her along?

Just to be clear, my first playthrough was an evil dwarf who any cared for power. I wanted to unlock reaver and being a hardcore rpg'er, I wasn't going to cheap out by reloading.

edit: by the way, she turns on you if she's with you or not. 

Modifié par Any0day, 06 avril 2011 - 01:37 .

[TEWR]

Any0day wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But look at it from if you were your Warden, if the events of Origins were real. Would you really bring a friend or the woman you're in love with, a devout Andrastian (whom prior to you agreeing to Kolgrim's proposal told you she didn't like the idea) to a holy temple where you are now defiling the Ashes, kill her, and say you weren't at fault for making a stupid choice by bringing her along?

Just to be clear, my first playthrough was an evil dwarf who any cared for power. I wanted to unlock reaver and being a hardcore rpg'er, I wasn't going to cheap out by reloading.

edit: by the way, she turns on you if she's with you or not. 

no, she only turns on you if A) you bring her there and fail to intimidate her to stand down. or fail to persuade her to stay when you're at camp, at which point she just leaves. Basically it has to do with you not having a silver tongue.

Why didn't you just reload, head to the mountain summit where the High Dragon is, remove Leliana, defile the Urn, then persuade her to stay? You get your power hungry dwarf, Leliana lives and if you persuade her to stay, she stays, and everyone's..... well not happy, but they aren't depressed

@TJPags: Bringing Leliana isn't as conceivable as you might think. Why would she have knowledge of where the Urn of Sacred Ashes is kept when no-one else does, save for Genitivi and the Cultists? And you're presented the option to defile the Urn by Kolgrim, where Leliana voices her disgust (maybe not the right word, but she didn't like it) at the very notion of pouring blood into the Urn. She doesn't turn yet, but knowing she disapproves heavily of this course of action, a person would still bring her along?

EDIT: Granted, I always bring her along anyway for that quest just so she can see them. But bringing her isn't conceivable as one might think. It's merely, for me anyway, a nicety.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 avril 2011 - 01:49 .

[Denizen89]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Always nice when someone pointing out the obvious. It's all just sad though. I loved DAO and expansions...
@Beerfish: It's commonly assumed that David Gaider is responsible for everything in Dragon Age. Now if you excuse me I need to find my pitchfork and tinfoil hat.

Uh no he wasn't it was his predecessor that started the Dragon Age franchise. I have to say that these writers did not really consider much of timeframe from Origins DLC to DA2

Awakening was 6 months after Origins

Golems was about another 6 months or so after Awakening

Witch Hunt was a full 2 and a Half Years after Origins (when you read the codex's about dog and such.)

Anders being in Kirkwall a year after the blight give or take how long it took to flee ferelden and sail to kirkwall. That does seem plausible but it is never explained how he got there after awakening which was six months after the blight ended. Anders being there is in question some depending on the ending of awakening. His merging with Justice makes very little sense when you look at the character in awakening, he was raised in the circle and despite how much he hated them he still would not have merged with Justice because of becoming a abomination. Now Leliana also depends on if you tainted the ashes, which I agree they should have done something about that. They did not however. The whole transfer of Origins files to DA2 was bugged and flawed and I still haven't seen much in the way of fixing it. Choices from Origins and its DLC should have had a much bigger effect on the world.

[Any0day]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Why didn't you just reload, head to the mountain summit where the High Dragon is, remove Leliana, defile the Urn, then persuade her to stay? You get your power hungry dwarf, Leliana lives and if you persuade her to stay, she stays, and everyone's..... well not happy, but they aren't depressed

Because If I make a decision - I'll accept the consequences. This was my first play through, I hated Leliana (roleplay wise); I knew going into it she'd probably throw a fit - my character simply didn't care, or maybe he enjoyed watching her get pissed off - with all that mumbo jumbo about how I'm going to save the world from darkness, having her turn on me was ironically funny to me. My character had no persuasion, he was all about "screw you, I'll do what I want" mentality.

Same thing with Bethany in DA2. She died, (I was actually more pissed off about how poorly executed that was) and I wasn't going to reload. I accepted that consequence; in fact I kinda knew when mother ran up complaining about it she was probably dead (varric confirms it like 5 seconds later lol). I don't know yet what happens if you leave her behind, but I can't work the energy up to do another playthrough honestly.

[MrHotter2]

If you look at the details of your transfered saved game from DA1 you will see the info that it copies over. It does not remember every detail. If it's not listed, then the 'default' is assumed.

My DA1 ended with Lelain heading off into the sunset with my Warden. I'm not going to come here and complain that she did not mention that at the end. It did not even bother me when she was not with me in Witch Hunt.

[TJPags]

No, I'm not suggesting she knows where they are . . . I'm simply suggesting that, if one were to go looking for the Ashes, it seems logical one would bring a believer with you. I mean, your choices are, after all, a apostate who doesn't seem to believe in the Maker or Andraste, a Qunari, a Dwarf, an Elf, a Golem, a Dog . . . or a former Templar who seems somewhat relgious, a devout Andrastian who thinks the Maker tells her bedtime stories, and a Mage who seems religious as well.

Seems logical to take Leli with you to search.

[TEWR]

Any0day wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Why didn't you just reload, head to the mountain summit where the High Dragon is, remove Leliana, defile the Urn, then persuade her to stay? You get your power hungry dwarf, Leliana lives and if you persuade her to stay, she stays, and everyone's..... well not happy, but they aren't depressed

Because If I make a decision - I'll accept the consequences. This was my first play through, I hated Leliana (roleplay wise); I knew going into it she'd probably throw a fit - my character simply didn't care, or maybe he enjoyed watching her get pissed off - with all that mumbo jumbo about how I'm going to save the world from darkness, having her turn on me was ironically funny to me. My character had no persuasion, he was all about "screw you, I'll do what I want" mentality.

Same thing with Bethany in DA2. She died, (I was actually more pissed off about how poorly executed that was) and I wasn't going to reload. I accepted that consequence; in fact I kinda knew when mother ran up complaining about it she was probably dead (varric confirms it like 5 seconds later lol). I don't know yet what happens if you leave her behind, but I can't work the energy up to do another playthrough honestly.

well at least if you played DA:O again you could do what I suggested.

As for Bethany, one of many things can happen.

A) she dies in the Deep Roads
she becomes a Grey Warden, but only if you bring Anders along
C) She is put into the Circle of Magi if you leave her at home

[TEWR]

TJPags wrote...

No, I'm not suggesting she knows where they are . . . I'm simply suggesting that, if one were to go looking for the Ashes, it seems logical one would bring a believer with you. I mean, your choices are, after all, a apostate who doesn't seem to believe in the Maker or Andraste, a Qunari, a Dwarf, an Elf, a Golem, a Dog . . . or a former Templar who seems somewhat relgious, a devout Andrastian who thinks the Maker tells her bedtime stories, and a Mage who seems religious as well.

Seems logical to take Leli with you to search.

maybe so. but it isn't logical to bring her with you if you have the intention of defiling the ashes.

And it should be logical to bring a Dog along with you to search for ashes. I actually did that my first playthrough hoping the Guardian would ask the dog something about his past lol.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 avril 2011 - 02:19 .

[TJPags]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

TJPags wrote...

No, I'm not suggesting she knows where they are . . . I'm simply suggesting that, if one were to go looking for the Ashes, it seems logical one would bring a believer with you. I mean, your choices are, after all, a apostate who doesn't seem to believe in the Maker or Andraste, a Qunari, a Dwarf, an Elf, a Golem, a Dog . . . or a former Templar who seems somewhat relgious, a devout Andrastian who thinks the Maker tells her bedtime stories, and a Mage who seems religious as well.

Seems logical to take Leli with you to search.

maybe so. but it isn't logical to bring her with you if you have the intention of defiling the ashes.

And it is indeed logical to bring a Dog along with you. I actually did that my first playthrough hoping the Guardian would ask the dog something about his past lol.

lol @ dog.

See, I'm looking at it from a first run/non-metagame perspective.  You don't know, when you leave camp to go to Haven, that the Ashes are there.  You certainly don't know you're going to get the option to defile them, so you can't have that intention at that point.

Obviously, on subsequent playthroughs, you the player know your options, and can plan accordingly - don't bring her if you plan to defile and want to keep her, etc.  But on your first game, you don't.

[TEWR]

TJPags wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

TJPags wrote...

No, I'm not suggesting she knows where they are . . . I'm simply suggesting that, if one were to go looking for the Ashes, it seems logical one would bring a believer with you. I mean, your choices are, after all, a apostate who doesn't seem to believe in the Maker or Andraste, a Qunari, a Dwarf, an Elf, a Golem, a Dog . . . or a former Templar who seems somewhat relgious, a devout Andrastian who thinks the Maker tells her bedtime stories, and a Mage who seems religious as well.

Seems logical to take Leli with you to search.

maybe so. but it isn't logical to bring her with you if you have the intention of defiling the ashes.

And it is indeed logical to bring a Dog along with you. I actually did that my first playthrough hoping the Guardian would ask the dog something about his past lol.

lol @ dog.

See, I'm looking at it from a first run/non-metagame perspective.  You don't know, when you leave camp to go to Haven, that the Ashes are there.  You certainly don't know you're going to get the option to defile them, so you can't have that intention at that point.

Obviously, on subsequent playthroughs, you the player know your options, and can plan accordingly - don't bring her if you plan to defile and want to keep her, etc.  But on your first game, you don't.

But as soon as Kolgrim offers it to you and you accept it, you then have the intention of defiling them. And then you should ask yourself, "Leliana's already voiced her disapproval once, very strongly even. Do I really want to run the risk of jeopardizing her offer to help me by bringing her with me when I defile this? No, not really. I'm a warrior and Zevran sucks at picking locks/she's my only rogue capable of picking locks." Even if she didn't fight you if you failed to persuade her, there's still the risk, so you wouldn't want to risk it. It only makes sense that you would tell her to wait at camp, which you're able to do once you reach the mountain summit, because again you don't want to risk it.

Unless you're like Oghren and you ****** on risk

[Any0day]

TJPags wrote...

Obviously, on subsequent playthroughs, you the player know your options, and can plan accordingly - don't bring her if you plan to defile and want to keep her, etc.  But on your first game, you don't.

Exactly.