665 réponses à ce sujet

[Any0day]

And then you should ask yourself, "Leliana's already voiced her disapproval once, very strongly even. Do I really want to run the risk of jeopardizing her offer to help me by bringing her with me when I defile this? No, not really. I'm a warrior and Zevran sucks at picking locks/she's my only rogue capable of picking locks." Even if she didn't fight you if you failed to persuade her, there's still the risk, so you wouldn't want to risk it. It only makes sense that you would tell her to wait at camp, which you're able to do once you reach the mountain summit, because again you don't want to risk it.

I really get the feeling you're looking at it from a player perspective and not a roleplaying one. If I hate Leliana, why would I care?

[TEWR]

really off topic, but I wish there was a way for me to view every post I've made on this thread without having to read 30 pages. Bioware people have it easy, they just click the tag and can see all they posted on any thread. I have to go digging just to make sure I don't say something contradictory to something I've already said.

[TEWR]

Any0day wrote...

And then you should ask yourself, "Leliana's already voiced her disapproval once, very strongly even. Do I really want to run the risk of jeopardizing her offer to help me by bringing her with me when I defile this? No, not really. I'm a warrior and Zevran sucks at picking locks/she's my only rogue capable of picking locks." Even if she didn't fight you if you failed to persuade her, there's still the risk, so you wouldn't want to risk it. It only makes sense that you would tell her to wait at camp, which you're able to do once you reach the mountain summit, because again you don't want to risk it.

I really get the feeling you're looking at it from a player perspective and not a roleplaying one. If I hate Leliana, why would I care?

If you hated her so much, why'd you accept her offer of help? If she was that pushy, you'd hate her right from the get go. And no I'm looking at it from a roleplaying one. If I am roleplaying my Warden, whose primary concerns I have to feel as my own, that question is going to be one I will ask.

edit: just an addendum, I'm not trying to say you should've known you'd end up hating her.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 avril 2011 - 03:10 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

didymos1120 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
I agree that it's a randomised part of battle, but I have to debate your definition of canon. If it happened in that game, it's canon for that game. It *happened*, random or not, in that game. So I'm sorry, I disagree that the argument of "I beheaded her!" is a poor one--I think it's quite valid for people who had that happen in their playthroughs. *shrug* So we will leave it there I guess.

But it is not something the game itself actually pays any attention to once that moment has passed.  The only thing it recognizes, via a plot flag, is that she died.  [snip rest] All they can do, and it apparently is what they will do if Gaider's posts are anything to go by, is acknowledge that she was indeed dead.  At least for a little while, anyway.

Ok, let me explain myself since it looks like several conversations/meanings were getting crossed.

1 - Leliana could be killed. HOW she was killed doesn't matter, she was just dead.
2 - She is coming back. We don't know how yet.
3 - If the explanation is 'she was just unconscious' like it seemed to have been with Oghren, I will consider it a poor 'plot twist' since you'd *think* the PC would know if someone was dead or just unconscious (otherwise Zevran would never have joined the party--the PC realised he was unconscious).
4 - I have no problem with Leliana coming back, though I am waiting to see if her Plot Armour is any good. Oghren's Plot Armour, in my opinion, sucked.

In summary: The 'unconscious' explanation is jarring, especially to those who got a very obvious 'kill' animation with whoever it was they killed. Dead is dead. Unconscious is a handwave. Brought back to life by the Maker/Ashes/Power of Lyrium I will be much happier with than 'unconscious'.

[TEWR]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
I agree that it's a randomised part of battle, but I have to debate your definition of canon. If it happened in that game, it's canon for that game. It *happened*, random or not, in that game. So I'm sorry, I disagree that the argument of "I beheaded her!" is a poor one--I think it's quite valid for people who had that happen in their playthroughs. *shrug* So we will leave it there I guess.

But it is not something the game itself actually pays any attention to once that moment has passed.  The only thing it recognizes, via a plot flag, is that she died.  [snip rest] All they can do, and it apparently is what they will do if Gaider's posts are anything to go by, is acknowledge that she was indeed dead.  At least for a little while, anyway.

Ok, let me explain myself since it looks like several conversations/meanings were getting crossed.

1 - Leliana could be killed. HOW she was killed doesn't matter, she was just dead.
2 - She is coming back. We don't know how yet.
3 - If the explanation is 'she was just unconscious' like it seemed to have been with Oghren, I will consider it a poor 'plot twist' since you'd *think* the PC would know if someone was dead or just unconscious (otherwise Zevran would never have joined the party--the PC realised he was unconscious).
4 - I have no problem with Leliana coming back, though I am waiting to see if her Plot Armour is any good. Oghren's Plot Armour, in my opinion, sucked.

In summary: The 'unconscious' explanation is jarring, especially to those who got a very obvious 'kill' animation with whoever it was they killed. Dead is dead. Unconscious is a handwave. Brought back to life by the Maker/Ashes/Power of Lyrium I will be much happier with than 'unconscious'.

WAIT.... does Oghren have a different view of the Warden in Awakening if you fought him in Origins?

[chris1110022]

You do realize that just because you killed Leilana that doesn't mean as far as the game universe goes she's dead, right? I think when the devs went to write DA:2 they had sort of a default storyline going for which Leilana isn't dead because I'm sure the vast majority of us didn't help that insane dragon cult thus resulting in the death of her. Some of these were just nuggets and possibilities but weren't canon. I'm pretty sure if your male Warden wandered into the portal with Morrigan at the end of Witch Hunt, you should probably expect should Morrigan resurface, the Warden will have gone to Amaranthine and done Awakening, instead. I don't know if that's a retcon so much as a continuity issue that maybe Bioware shouldn't have indulged but they wanted us to I'm sure feel like we're guiding the adventure as much as possible. I mean, you could kill Zevran in Origins when he betrays you...but he's alive and well in 2. I think the only real issue addressed was the plot of Alistair...since you can kick him out...but if you look, they have three default stories about the Warden and in one of them Alistair has been kicked out of the Gray Wardens...Leilana, however is not dead in any of them. I'm sure that even if you didn't go for Morrigan's offer that Dragon Age 3 (and 2 as well) treats it as if you did...so, at the end of the day, we get a lot of say in how it goes, but they also want to preserve continuity.

[TEWR]

chris1110022 wrote...

You do realize that just because you killed Leilana that doesn't mean as far as the game universe goes she's dead, right? I think when the devs went to write DA:2 they had sort of a default storyline going for which Leilana isn't dead because I'm sure the vast majority of us didn't help that insane dragon cult thus resulting in the death of her. Some of these were just nuggets and possibilities but weren't canon. I'm pretty sure if your male Warden wandered into the portal with Morrigan at the end of Witch Hunt, you should probably expect should Morrigan resurface, the Warden will have gone to Amaranthine and done Awakening, instead. I don't know if that's a retcon so much as a continuity issue that maybe Bioware shouldn't have indulged but they wanted us to I'm sure feel like we're guiding the adventure as much as possible. I mean, you could kill Zevran in Origins when he betrays you...but he's alive and well in 2. I think the only real issue addressed was the plot of Alistair...since you can kick him out...but if you look, they have three default stories about the Warden and in one of them Alistair has been kicked out of the Gray Wardens...Leilana, however is not dead in any of them. I'm sure that even if you didn't go for Morrigan's offer that Dragon Age 3 (and 2 as well) treats it as if you did...so, at the end of the day, we get a lot of say in how it goes, but they also want to preserve continuity.

• Witch Hunt takes place AFTER Awakening
• Zevran appearing in DA2 if you killed him in Origins is a bug.

[chris1110022]

Ethereal...that's a damn good question, actually. Here's the thing: for story continuity it's assumed you didn't kill Leilana even though you can and that you didn't kill Ogrhen, either. As for plot armor, there again since the canon assumes neither happened and again referring to the default Warden plots you can select if you didn't finish or play Origins neither Leilana nor Oghren is dead. I think it's because Origins was created quite differently than Mass Effect so that even though Mass Effect 1, 2, and 3 has continuity depended upon what you chose in the preceding game, Dragon Age doesn't. Since Dragon Age 2 has been given the proverbial Mass Effect treatment, it will be fascinating to see just what carryover exists between 2 and 3. It would be nice if such an issue didn't exist...but since Origins and Mass Effect were developed completely seperate from each other you can see Bioware's now signature carryover idea (as brilliant as it is...sad ME is ending at 3) I think maybe Dragon Age 3 will be in-line much more with 2 than 2 was with Origins...which is mostly just backstory for 2, has a few tie-ins but nothing like if a party member buys the farm in Mass Effect 2 they'll still be dead in 3. My only question is, if your Warden made the ultimate sacrifice at the end of Origins, are they still dead in 2? Neither of my Wardens did...my female made Alistair sleep with Morrigan and my male gave her personal attention. But since Morrigan's child could wind up being crucial in 3...I assume for continuity the Warden or Alistair did the deed. Either way, 2 lined up with my Origins playthroughs just fine in regards to who returns...it was awesome how they worked Flemeth back in....that did get a geek moment of awesome from me.

I'm not sure, but I think either Origins was probably originally created to be standalone but it's popularity forced a sequel which was supposed to have little tie-in (unlike Mass Effect where you literally have the same Shepard game in and out) so therefore I think that explains the continuity and "plot armor" issues...if your Warden returned in DA 2 I'd completely agree with carryover plot holes from Origins...maybe 3 will allow either the return of the Hero or Hawke? Both? I think since Hawke is much more realized than the Warden (voice, personality, etc. like Shepard makes it easier to move Hawke over to part 3), who didn't even have a conversation voice (old system) unless they make some big revamps to the Warden...our Origins Wardens exist only as part of Thedas myth now. Get used to your Hawke people...I actually grew to rather like mine...saucy, sarcastic wench with a big sword.

Modifié par chris1110022, 06 avril 2011 - 03:52 .

[TEWR]

I think the OGB is going to be considered strictly canon, since it seems to have a heavy influence on the plot. whether you did the Dark Ritual or were in a romance with Morrigan and boinked her.

and which question that I asked is a damn good one? I've asked a few questions.

[chris1110022]

Ethereal the one about Oghren and the Warden from Origins to Awakening. I completely forgot you could stomp a mudhole in his drunken arse...since I took pity on him and didn't...it wasn't an issue in Awakening for me. But since Awakening could hardly NOT have been canon with Origins...I'm just wondering if maybe you made up? If Oghren left in Origins I meant. Yeah...Dragon Age is just a different animal from Mass Effect...even though 2 is a lot more like ME 2 than Origins was, since you begin an entirely new character with very limited influence from Origins...it just seems like a lot of the plotholes people are noticing between the two just speaks to an established "this is canon" story which didn't matter what we did aside from Alistair being kicked out of the Grey Wardens...Maybe our decisions in part 2 will have more of an effect on customizing part 3, especially if your jerkass anti-mage people abandoned you like what happened to me. Now plotholes between 2 and 3 (if Hawke returns as the PC) will be MUCH more interesting than Origins and 2....because 2 is so much different than Origins (I don't mean that in a bad way, I like where they're going with series direction and was pleasantly surprised by how good 2 is after reading all the criticism), anyway.

[chris1110022]

Alright...so Witch Hunt occurs after Awakening...I'll still wager dollars to donuts even though you CAN go through the portal with the right dialog...it didn't happen. Since I didn't kill Zevran, I'll just take your word for the bug. Leilana I think is different and might play a role in 3...considering her place in 2. Maybe Zevran could be killed with no effect to continuity but Leilana couldn't? If so..it's because she has a role in 3 and if not, that's a definite plothole for those who killed her (I just couldn't side with those nutters in the dragon cult...but if she wasn't there when you taint the ashes, you don't fight her, either).

Modifié par chris1110022, 06 avril 2011 - 04:37 .

[TEWR]

If you didn't disappear with Morrigan through the Eluvian, then how does the Warden mysteriously vanish? Honestly though, I'm unsure of how the Female Wardens will be explained for that since WH never let the Female Wardens go through. They really should've done that.

I bet going with Morrigan is going to be considered canon.

As for the anti-mage people, get them to 100% friendship or rivalry and they'll stand by you, save for Sebastian if you let Anders live. I'm also willing to bet that Anders' fate is going to be considered canon depending on what you do. Let him live, it'll be canon. You kill him, it'll be canon. It'll be one of those choices that do have an impact.

[wikkedjoker]

Okay David a bit of a suggestion for future writings/DLC and game content in general. Bioware games have been about meaningful choice, and now with the ability to import that choice it's made the world feel like our own. Than we started noticing things that we chose to do that didn’t carry over. Now you shoehorn this into justification by saying “Not every choice is going to have an impact--” and “ It affected the game it occurred within, and that's all it was ever meant to do.” and “The world is shaped by your choices, as much as we are able to accommodate them.”

My suggestion stop writing BS choices, or better yet, think about what choices you want to effect the greater world. By allowing choice import you can no longer hand-wave our choices with “your” continuity. As your writing DLC and Dragon Age 3, thinking about the choices that will be made not just the big ones, but all of them, and if you think something may or may not be important [Like Leliana ] don’t give the player the ability to do something [like kill them/or not do it.] and than tell them [in actions] it wasn’t important.

Now time to note some issues I have with what you’ve said:

I'll just kindly point out that your assumption of how much time passed in Awakening, when there's nothing in the game that suggests anything more than the 6 months between Origin's end and Awakening's start, does not constitute a plot hole. Merely an erroneous
assumption on your part.

But feel free to prove my point. 

As for whether or not you or anyone else thinks that good storytelling is involved, I simply said that I understood the origin of the complaints even if not the conclusion drawn. I'm not passing judgement on someone's opinion. If you don't like something, I'm sure the technicality of whether or not it's a cliffhanger or plot hole is unimportant-- but as someone who uses words for a living I feel compelled to point out when they're abused. That said, any reasonable feedback is welcome.

David I think its fair to assume that more than a year passed in Awakening look at the events.
I re-stabilize an entire City States economy, rebuild the Keep, find and train new Wardens, spend Maker knows how much time in the care of The Architect, mine ore and my single Blacksmith is able to outfit, assumingly a few hundred solders. Unfold a plot of talking Darkspawn, and oh yeah fight a small war, and that’s just what I can remember, form Awakening, and your telling me this happened in less than a year??? Really? Your asking a lot when you ask me to hold my suspension of disbelief, that much.

And that’s not including Anders dying at the end of Dragon Age Awakening. Just sayin’

Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're talking about, here. Who said anything about a free pass? And who are these other people I told the story to? What?

And I do believe continuity in important, incidentally. That doesn't mean I'm not going to occasionally arrange events to happen the way I want them to (or need them to). If that means I don't consider some things sacred cows the way you do-- then I guess we're at an impasse. Sorry about that.

Again taking away the choice the player made is worse than never giving them that choice. I’ll agree some events need to be set in stone. However don’t decide that after the fact, lay out the major choices thinking forward, and go from that point.

It is, however, our perogative... and that is "our" and not just mine. I am the Lead Writer but I do not dictate everything about what a story will be--

Last time I checked isn’t that’s the Lead Writers job? Sorry that just seems kind of lax. However that’s just my view on it, but Dragon Age’s plot wouldn’t hurt form focus.

 

The story is only one element of a game and must work hand-in-hand with, and sometimes subservient to, the needs of other departments and their available resources.

And thus what is wrong with the gaming industry as a whole, the reason we are given 5 hour champagne games, with a lack luster story that only serves and an impromptu tutorial for multiplayer.

And since you brought up the subject of department resources. There must have not been much room for proper story mapping across both games, because you needed room for the same 5 level designs? I’m sorry with all that is perceived as wrong and reused in Dragon Age 2 the story should have been the best part, I think people could have overlooked A LOT for a compelling story, but in DA2 the events would have played out with out Hawk.

I mean Anders is really the focal point of the plot, Hawk seems more like the party member to Anders. Without Hawk how long till Anders went ape **** anyways? He was still possessed, he still believed there can be no piece, and even if you turn down his quest he still gets the items he needs. Anders than blows up the Chantry starting the war. Nothing Hawk does adds to this or stops it, and unless something happens between the end of Dragon Age 2 and Varric telling the story [3 years later if I’m not mistaken] And the thing is there were multiple ways you could have brought about the end of the game, with out the character assassination of Anders [making his end game decision a choice based on friendship rivalry/ conversations etc], and made Hawk the focal point, but like the rest of the game it felt very rushed and unnatural.

And the thing is it didn’t need to be. Dragon Age 2 could have been a very epic game, but I have a feeling you and your team wrote yourself into a corner with Dragon Age Origins, with just how much free choice you gave players.

[chris1110022]

Actually, I don't really mind that Hawke doesn't have control over what Anders ultimately does..If I'm not mistaken though, can't you opt out of the "Justice" quest? I didn't...and what happened didn't bother me, either. Sometimes even if you're an influencer, other pieces move on their own...it was kind of refreshing to be reacting to something incredible an ally did (oh and you don't get to decide whether or not Isabella triggers the quanari war, either...just FYI). In fact, you don't get to decide in Origins if Cailan is betrayed come to think of it...it just sort of happens and you react to the world caused by it...same thing with Anders blowing up the chantry. It's not character assassination, either...Anders clearly carries a good deal of antipathy toward the Templars and eliminates the Holy Mother (as wrong as it is since she's the voice of reason) in order to force change...he's an agent of chaos. There's a lot you as the player don't have control over aside from your own characters actions...such as with life. As far as "unnatural" or "rushed" goes..I don't know what you're talking about, this games combat system is much more refined than Origins was; want proof? Play FF XIII...like or dislike the linear play it's much more fluid and fun than Origins clunky delivery was with combat. When I played Origins, I was constantly hitting the x-button during combat to attack because even though it didn't matter, it felt more natural to me to do so..gave the illusion of engagement whereas auto-combat is letting the machine do it for you. Now, I get to control when I swing my sword, etc...sorry to people who thought Origins was perfect and 2 isn't good because it's different but I beg to differ. Origins was good, I bought it day 1 and still have my original copy...in fact when I changed PS3's somehow my original Warden ended up getting nixed so I beat Origins again before playing 2 for synergy. It also gave me a fresh perspective and there are a lot of things Origins does well...but combat isn't one of them. I much prefer an active style of combat (I like tri-ace games too) over one where I sit and watch passively, occassionally pausing combat to make sure Alistair heals himself before he dies (as per usual). With the tactics system, you could have rendered your own active contribution nil...and that sucks as far as I'm concerned, it's why I hated Final Fantasy XII. As for storyline...you're being overly critical...I agree the writers painted themselves into a proverbial corner by giving us choices and decisions they didn't intend to honor (unlike Mass Effect) but that doesn't diminish the quality of this game, either as it covers all the big ones nicely. You do kill Flemeth in Origins, Alistair is either a king or a drunk and I assume Morrigan still gives birth to whatever it is she gave birth to, most everything else (excepting Leilana) is most vestigial and isolated to Fereldan, anyway. Bioware is still exploring this continuity plan of theirs from release to release and they do it like no other series I've seen. Mass Effect because of it being a simpler plan to execute was probably a lot easier to keep continiuty than this game is...even so, for the PS3 version there are apparently continuity issues since we didn't get ME, but they're nothing major. It's the same thing here...as for this game which is being treated in and of itself as an entry point into a series, instead of dwelling on Origins which appears aside from giving us players who played it a knowing smile or two...it's ancient history because it's SO different. My advice is, learn to like this game (I can't imagine why you don't, but I'm not you) because this style of game...Dragon Age 2, is here to stay. Oh and DA 2 is epic...it's just a different kind of epic altogether...it's dark, and political in its subtext, concerns rights and security...the delicate balance between the two and also a less the fulfilling rise for Hawke. Because actions have consequences, it's refreshing to see Dragon Age 2 try to emulate political realities rather than just throw a giant dragon at us and say "kill it or the world ends".

[TEWR]

one tip chris. Please separate your paragraphs occasionally, it makes it not only easier to read, but easier to quote. I'm not trying to be a dick, but there are a lot of points I agree with in your post and I'm like "Wait where was it? ****!!"

Chris wrote....

this games combat system is much more refined than Origins was; want proof? Play FF XIII...like or dislike the linear play it's much more fluid and fun than Origins clunky delivery was with combat. When I played Origins, I was constantly hitting the x-button during combat to attack because even though it didn't matter, it felt more natural to me to do so..gave the illusion of engagement whereas auto-combat is letting the machine do it for you. Now, I get to control when I swing my sword, etc...sorry to people who thought Origins was perfect and 2 isn't good because it's different but I beg to differ

I feel the same way about combat in DA2. I also bashed the attack button in Origins, just because their swinging looked wrong. If you're in combat in real life, you want to hit fast and heavy. You're not going to just slowly drag your sword. Honestly, people wouldn't have hated combat so bad if the enemies in DA2 didn't use the Origins style of combat, because then the battling field would've been evened out. Hell even some allies did! By that I mean Nathaniel and Charade. I would've finished FFXIII if there were some damn side quests prior to landing on Gran Pulse (or was it just Pulse?). It had a great story, but the lack of side quests made it not a FF game. Still it's a great game, and I may just finish it someday soon.

in fact when I changed PS3's somehow my original Warden ended up getting nixed so I beat Origins again before playing 2 for synergy.

If you played on a different PS3 that's why your DA:O files were nixed. It's because the memory is inside the PS3 you played it on, not the disc itself.

it's why I hated Final Fantasy XII

Personally I loved FFXII. It was more of a political Final Fantasy then a "save the world from this evil force that's explained lorewise very well"

(I like tri-ace games too)

Ever play Star Ocean:Till the End of Time? If you haven't, you should do so.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 avril 2011 - 05:29 .

[Alamar2078]

@Joker: I tend to agree with your points.

If I had advice to give the next time a new Bioware series is started where you are allowed to import your choices whoever is in charge of the main story / plot / etc. needs to map out what choices will be allowed and exactly what impacts they have [or don't have] on the series as a whole.

This way you give the players the illusion that their choices matter while still being able to have a framework that you can tell the story that you want to tell within.