665 réponses à ce sujet

[renegadeV8]

Psycoman2 wrote...
They cant possibly account for all the things you could have done in origins. Get over it.

Origins was very open ended but whether the Warden lives or not was possibly the biggest choice you make and it's an option even if you have no Origins save (The Martyr) so you'd think the game would keep track of it.
Also 'gone like the warden' is a line that gets a lot of emphasis in a major scene so you wouldn't really expect it to be there of all places if it's an oversight rather than a glitch. 

Modifié par renegadeV8, 31 mars 2011 - 10:21 .

[Lithuasil]

There's a mod replacing the summoned marbari with a desire demon

[GamiSB]

DanteCousland wrote....

Lelianas Miraculous revival. Yes you can do it, it's your game but for those who killed her it makes no sense and before yoyu go "But you was in a room full of magic dust L0L" let me mention she only turns on you if you DESTROY the ashes and take what you want for Eamon...Also when I killed her i did a decapitation move on her, pretty sure it's tricky to heal that.

In my game I performed a decapitations animation on a character and that character was later still alive and talked to me. Irving the first Enchanter was killed in the final battle and yet he still showed up in the epilogue. Death animations are not canon they are a purely visual thing but hold no baring on the course of the story.

As for the revival, one who's to say you destroyed it all. You have any idea how small ash is? Two the ash is not the only magical substance around, the mountain is as well. Bring Oghren with you and he comments on the amount of Lyrium within the mountain. That right there is the out. Leliana could have been healed by the huge amounts of Lyrium within the mountain. So once you add everything all up and not just stop at "Hurr I killed her, durr" there is no plot hole here.

Modifié par GamiSB, 01 avril 2011 - 02:38 .

[Lord Gremlin]

Lithuasil wrote...

There's a mod replacing the summoned marbari with a desire demon

...which is only on PC. Also, Bioware know how to make a good demon - like Ya Zhen.

[_Aine_]

renegadeV8 wrote...

It really didn't make any sense to me why Orsino transforms out of desperation when I'd sided with him, there were no templars around at that point and my party were the only ones he attacked. (weak storytelling?)
I didn't feel like I'd been shown any motive for why he'd helped Quentin research blood magic either, up until that twist he'd completely given me the impression he was doing things honestly. (just a minor issue)

You know, when this played out at first I thought it was a weird mistake, where I was seeing both sides of two optional endings depending on how you played out the game. I thought somehow I was accidentally seeing both optional endings.  I really did. I mean, it made a great deal of sense, inside my head anyway  

It is just like all of Kirkwall had gone mad.  Why did the majority of people you deal with as mages turn to blood magic?  Was it a blood magic epidemic?  Where the nugs to blame?  Qunari quooties?  Wouldn't there have been mass suicides if t was simply a matter of extreme frustration as some mages just wouldn't turn to blood magic out of principle?  Why did the templars suddenly become as prone to magical corruption?  What prompted this?   

Then you know, you see the ending, the flying people, the story turns from dramatic to quite melodramatic. Then suddenly even the Justice/Anders personality switch also seems harshly one-dimensional. You start asking yourself: " Is this all a big tale, did ANY of this really happen?  VARRIC?!?"  

It just doesn't. make. sense. logically.  you ask: is this too fantastical at times?    Was the tale concocted by Varric to illustrate Hawke surviving despite this madness or was it a writing teams decision to depict all humanity, magical or not as prone to corruption when bigotry and belief lack empathy and humanity as grounding forces? Or maybe it was just really entertaining and logic shouldn't be used as a barometer of quality/entertainment in the least.   

*boggle*  *ponder*

I mean, I got over it quickly and am enjoying the story for what it is, lots of decent/great writing in an overall story I don't quite understand 100% fully.  Perhaps I am just a doubter, a questioner of tall tales, seeker of...well.... something.  lol  

Still, that was a rather long-winded way of saying: " OMG, me too!"   especially my first playthrough.  

My takeaway thought though is this:  I just don't know everything and won't know everything.  What I don't know is part of the key to understanding it fully.  Understanding it 75% will have to do.  

Modifié par shantisands, 31 mars 2011 - 10:34 .

[Deathofhams]

It is just like all of Kirkwall had gone mad.  Why did the majority of people you deal with as mages turn to blood magic?  Was it a blood magic epidemic?  Where the nugs to blame?  Qunari quooties?  Wouldn't there have been mass suicides if t was simply a matter of extreme frustration as some mages just wouldn't turn to blood magic out of principle?  Why did the templars suddenly become as prone to magical corruption?  What prompted this?   

Aren't there a couple of hints that Kirkwall is located near to a weak spot in the Fade (perhaps something to do with its Tevinter past?) that explains why everyone's so susceptible to blood magic? It's not really spelt out that much, though.

[caradoc2000]

David Gaider wrote...

Lelianas Miraculous revival.
Yes you can do it, it's your game but for those who killed her it makes
no sense and before yoyu go "But you was in a room full of magic dust
L0L" let me mention she only turns on you if you DESTROY the ashes and
take what you want for Eamon...Also when I killed her i did a
decapitation move on her, pretty sure it's tricky to heal that.

I don't think we've offered any kind of explanation regarding Leliana yet.

Blimey, she is Andraste

[Aloradus]

David Gaider wrote...

As for whether or not you or anyone else thinks that good storytelling is involved, I simply said that I understood the origin of the complaints even if not the conclusion drawn. I'm not passing judgement on someone's opinion. If you don't like something, I'm sure the technicality of whether or not it's a cliffhanger or plot hole is unimportant-- but as someone who uses words for a living I feel compelled to point out when they're abused. That said, any reasonable feedback is welcome.

I appreciate the games you all make and I think Bioware has talented employees.... The majority of complaints I have seen are from people who feel disconnected from the game.

If the point is a mage rebellion and mages vs templars... seen through the view of a character who just wants to 'get rich, and then survive at best.'  You tricky developers had to force things onto Hawke. For me it’s hard to overlook the 'whys' I must ask about Hawke. It’s hard to capture the heart of a story when ones character is on the outside.  Please, pretty please give me a character who is a string puller next time. I want to take part by my character having a real care in the outcome (and contribution)- be it to get something, stop something or cause something.To reiterate I strongly feel Hawek’s personal purpose and focus do not relate to the games purpose – setup a world without circles.

There have been a lot of great posts breaking down story issues people have with DA:2.  I don't understand why no one from Bioware has posted on any of these.  Instead we get posts in the praise sections, or here calling out how the OP is technically wrong.  You understand story so you should be able to see what didn't connect with them, even if they cannot provide a proper breakdown.  Does everyone there feel they knocked it out of the park and the game had no flaws? This makes me worry for future games.

I know games can’t have unlimited choices, and I don't mind forced items- I don't even mind my characters aspirations being crushed at the end ...

Modifié par Aloradus, 31 mars 2011 - 10:57 .

[RosaAquafire]

shantisands wrote...
It is just like all of Kirkwall had gone mad.  Why did the majority of people you deal with as mages turn to blood magic?  Was it a blood magic epidemic?  Where the nugs to blame?  Qunari quooties?  Wouldn't there have been mass suicides if t was simply a matter of extreme frustration as some mages just wouldn't turn to blood magic out of principle?  Why did the templars suddenly become as prone to magical corruption?  What prompted this?  

Read your Codex

The secret message ones talk about the history of Kirkwall. The Veil is thin anywhere connected with a lot of death (addressed in DA:O during Nature of the Beast and other places), but Kirkwall takes the cake. Kirkwall was a meat grinder for blood magic. There were literally entire lakes of blood surrounding Tevinter fortresses.

It's all subtle and meant to be picked up on, not explained. But every mage in Kirkwall whose will was less than iron was being constantly whispered to by demons, pulled to blood magic. I'd say the Veil is probably more thin in Kirkwall than anywhere else.

Turning to blood magic isn't just a simple choice. It's not like being a vegetarian or not. You don't say "I'm anti-blood magic" and then you're good to go. It's pretty well established that the demons are a constant, burning pressure in your head, and they make you a little bit crazy as they wear down on you, and in one single moment of weakness, they can get into your head and mess you up.

That's how I read the whole situation, anyway, and was impressed at the subtlety of it.

Aloradus wrote...

I appreciate the games you all make and I think Bioware has talented  employees.... The majority of complaints I have seen are from people who feel disconnected from the game.

You have to understand you don't speak for everyone. There were lots and lots of complaints about DA:O's story, too, how all choices had a lazy cheap third happy ending option, and how all the political tension evaporated and dumped us into "kill the demon" fantasy 101, and how frontloading character interaction made the whole cast seem dead 3 hours in.

Pretty sure Bioware didn't specifically address all of that, either.

I liked my character being a third party. It suited the story. DA2 is about events that are beyond our control. It's about being helpless, but being forced into a role anyway. I like that.

Modifié par RosaAquafire, 31 mars 2011 - 10:52 .

[_Aine_]

For me, it is not that the writing is poor, or about being a third party, forced choices etc ( those are great at times!) and I do think the writing was largely fantastic! My issue with the story was less quality and more that my effect was inconsequential in terms of the take-away "finale". I like to, in video games because it certainly does NOT happen in RL, feel like ( and I have said this before ) "I touched the world, and it changed! "

My family line was magical and yet did not have any effect from this thin veil in Kirkwall. After 7 years you would have thought the problem would have cropped up, especially as I did touch the relic. Why were we immune?

[Aloradus]

RosaAquafire wrote...


I liked my character being a third party. It suited the story. DA2 is about events that are beyond our control. It's about being helpless, but being forced into a role anyway. I like that.

So you enjoyed Hawek’s personal purpose and focus not relating to the games purpose – seting up a world without circles?  If thats the case, I am not speaking about you- I am talking about those who are complaining about hawke in the game. I never said I spoke for everyone lol.

Showing a character is helpless is a lot more powerful when they want something and cannot do anything about it, or get tricked.  Where did this game do that?  Not caring, doesnt show someone is helpless...

Modifié par Aloradus, 31 mars 2011 - 11:04 .

[RosaAquafire]

shantisands wrote...

For me, it is not that the writing is poor, or about being a third party, forced choices etc ( those are great at times!) and I do think the writing was largely fantastic! My issue with the story was less quality and more that my effect was inconsequential in terms of the take-away "finale". I like to, in video games because it certainly does NOT happen in RL, feel like ( and I have said this before ) "I touched the world, and it changed! "

My family line was magical and yet did not have any effect from this thin veil in Kirkwall. After 7 years you would have thought the problem would have cropped up, especially as I did touch the relic. Why were we immune?

ALL PC mages are constantly under siege by demons, they just don't work it into the game, because ... how would they? Are they going to make demonic nightmares just for one playable class? A whole subplot?

Bethany and Hawke are used as the example of that rare, strong-willed mage who constantly resists turning. That's Bethany's entire role in the plot for a non-mage Hawke, actually, being the face of the mages who really are good and strong and can constantly fight. And Hawke CAN turn, you have the option to roleplay that out with the blood magic tree, s/he just can't go all the way abomination.

Fenris actually mentions this in a dialogue with Anders.

Aloradus wrote...
So you enjoyed Hawek’s personal purpose and focus not relating to the games purpose – seting up a world without  circles?  If thats the case, I am not speaking about you- I am talking about those who are complaining about hawke in the game. I never said I spoke for everyone lol.

You define Hawke's personal purpose. My Warden's personal purpose was never saving the blight, he was just forced into that. In fact, unlike with Hawke, the game kept telling my Warden he cared about stopping the Blight. He defintiely didn't. He just wanted to go home.

All I'm saying is -- yeah, there are people who didn't like the story. Bioware doesn't owe them a personal explanation. The same way the people who didn't like DA:O's story didn't deserve a personal explanation, either.

I hated the Redcliffe happy-ending-option so badly that I made angry posts about it for days. Never got addressed. Got over it.

Modifié par RosaAquafire, 31 mars 2011 - 11:06 .

[Bayz]

[quote]ZombiePowered wrote...

In response to Leliana's miraculous revival, don't your companions get "killed" all the time? It isn't so unbelievable that in the final resting place of Andraste's ashes--a place clearly touched by extremely powerful magic, that a faithful servant of the Maker murdered in defense of his bride's remains wouldn't survive a stabbing. And yes, she may have been decapitated in your game, but can you seriously expect Bioware to change important parts of the Dragon Age story based on whether or not your game triggered a special death animation?[/quote]

Nopez they don't get killed. They get crancked and fall unconscious, after that the enemies slit their throats before they wake up and your "Journey Ends" or you awaken them and heal them with bandages and rest...or something like that...

[quote]AlexXIV wrote...

We have not seen Bioware commenting on
Anders being in Kirkwall, which I find odd. They could just get here and
say why. Or how it was possible. All we get is silence or implications
that we don't understand something. If some people can ignore plotholes,
good for them. But some people rather have at least some integrity in
their games. What we get is rather the feeling that Bioware does not
care, and act in the fashion 'What do we care about what we said
yesterday?'. I would at least like to see a sort of timeline of what
happend and when.

As for the topic of the OP, I don't know where
to start really. It would be easier to list the things that actually
make sense without asking the player to just ignore half of the things
that happen. My main concern is that Hawke's motivation goes overboard
after Act1. Hawke got rich, lost the family, what is the point of saving
Kirkwall from the Qunari and solving the Mage-Templar conflict.
Obviously Hawke is not a Warden or Jedi Knight or even City Guard or
anything that should motivate somebody to constantly stick his/her neck
out for others.[/quote]

What bugs me from that is you would expect the Grey Wardens getting pissed to have a guy that knows about the oversecretive joining going rouge and stuff...I know their organization is quite loose but won't they expect Anders (who loved to complain about the phylacteries and other Circle semi secretive stuff) running out his mouth about people vampirizing Darkspawn? Just found it odd that Nat and others were like "ohhh you were a warden lolz"

But keeping in mind that you can be an Apostate and Maleficar and still the Knight Commander can name you champion of Kirkwall and be ok-ish with that...(let alone doing stuff for the templars etc)

[quote]AlexXIV wrote...

I think the obvious reason for the
retcons (Leliana, Oghren, Anders, Justice) is saving time and effort.
Making an Anders like character from scrap in DA2 would probably have
been too troublesome. So they used someone everyone knows already from
Awakenings. Developing a character in a game takes time, the player
needs to 'learn to know them' and get a connection. So the short way is
to use characters that are already established.[/quote]

Hmm didn't connected him with the other Anders really...they seemed to me two different guys with the same voice and the same attire. Oddly enough I made Anders go through the Joining but I killed Justice because he got anal about me sparing the Architect...so in DA2 I've had Nat telling me that the Architect was spared and Anders with Justice inside...yeah ok I know he is a spirit but then if he could just move from a mortal husk to another what stops the demons in abominations to do so as well?

[quote]AlexXIV wrote...

[quote]Lithuasil wrote...

It can
match up easily - we just usually assume the blight started with
ostagar. If the events in orgins took, say, four month, and the first
Grey warden had bad dreams and called it a blight, eight month earlier,
with a few month for the darkspawn to make it topside, and another few
of battling in the corcari wilderness, there's a year right
there.[/quote]
Well you meet Wynne at Ostagar. And she comments it
has almost been a year. Since Ostagar. So the general assumption is that
the Blight lasted a year. And I think there is official word on it too.
I'd have to search for it though since I couldn't say where I know it
from from the top of my head.[/quote]

It is stated in DA2 in the loading screens, and in the wiki...I actually thought it lasted more until I readed it.

[quote]Psycoman2 wrote...

They cant possibly account for all the
things you could have done in origins. Get over it.
While they say
there is no cannon, we all know thats not true.

This is the
general cannon for origins, like it or not.
The warden was generally
good (which means he did not kill any companions)
He did the dark
ritual with morrigan and disappeared looking for her.

If this
does not match your version of the lore, well tough luck.[/quote]

For the first point I'm ok with that, but then don't use the "you shape the history of the world importing your saves" as a selling point...which is actually the thing that draw me to the saga (the only thing in fact...). Not that I am dissapointed though, I can bare the timeline changes.

We don't know the second bit. Is there official word that the Cthulhu child is regardless of the ending? Because Witchunt actually changes depending on if you did the ritual or not...(alas in DA2 Alistair and Leliana mentions the Warden as King\\Queen if you were
mad0e...I understand wanting to get out of Anora's reach and going with
Morrigan, but being Alistair's Queen, performing the ritual with
Morrigan and going with her with her through the Eluvian would involve a
level of Self Awareness in Alistair that would be out of Character [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/devil.png[/smilie])

Honestly believe, if you are going to create a Canon, why bother giving the player choices?

[quote]caradoc2000 wrote...

[quote]David Gaider wrote...

[quote]Lelianas
Miraculous revival.
Yes you can do it, it's your game but for those
who killed her it makes
no sense and before yoyu go "But you was in
a room full of magic dust
L0L" let me mention she only turns on you
if you DESTROY the ashes and
take what you want for Eamon...Also
when I killed her i did a
decapitation move on her, pretty sure it's
tricky to heal that.[/quote]

I don't think we've offered any kind
of explanation regarding Leliana yet.
[/quote] Blimey, she is
Andraste [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/surprised.png[/smilie]
[/quote]

So Leliana is in Chronological Order:

Jesus Christ + Jeanne D'Arc + Marthin Luther+ Red head lol

And looks good at it too...so bad ass 

[quote]RosaAquafire wrote...

[quote]shantisands wrote...
It is
just like all of Kirkwall had gone mad.  Why did the majority of people
you deal with as mages turn to blood magic?  Was it a blood magic
epidemic?  Where the nugs to blame?  Qunari quooties?  Wouldn't there
have been mass suicides if t was simply a matter of extreme frustration
as some mages just wouldn't turn to blood magic out of principle?  Why
did the templars suddenly become as prone to magical corruption?  What
prompted this?  
[/quote]

Read your Codex

The
secret message ones talk about the history of Kirkwall. The Veil is thin
anywhere connected with a lot of death (addressed in DA:O during Nature
of the Beast and other places), but Kirkwall takes the cake. Kirkwall
was a meat grinder for blood magic. There were literally entire lakes
of blood surrounding Tevinter fortresses.

[/quote]

....I've just imagined a pause and Nathan from Metalocalypse saying "That's pretty Metal"

Modifié par Bayz, 31 mars 2011 - 11:23 .

[Aloradus]

RosaAquafire wrote...

You define Hawke's personal purpose. My Warden's personal purpose was never saving the blight, he was just forced into that. In fact, unlike with Hawke, the game kept telling my Warden he cared about stopping the Blight. He defintiely didn't. He just wanted to go home.

All I'm saying is -- yeah, there are people who didn't like the story. Bioware doesn't owe them a personal explanation. The same way the people who didn't like DA:O's story didn't deserve a personal explanation, either.

I hated the Redcliffe happy-ending-option so badly that I made angry posts about it for days. Never got addressed. Got over it.

"if it wasn't for my horse, i wouldn't have spent that year in college."

Regardless of you wanting to connect with the given story.. Bioware took great pains to tie the Warden into the tale, and give him a purpose. 

Lets apply that to a movie - so maybe you didnt care about the Na'Vi in avatar and you just wanted to watch **** blow up. Okay some people may have wanted that, but had Cameron not made us care it would have been poor storytelling...

Modifié par Aloradus, 31 mars 2011 - 11:23 .

[RosaAquafire]

Aloradus wrote...

"if it wasn't for my horse, i wouldn't have spent that year in college."

Regardless of you wanting to connect with the given story.. Bioware took great pains to tie the Warden into the tale, and give him a purpose. 

Lets apply that to a movie - so maybe you didnt care about the Na'Vi in avatar and you just wanted to watch **** blow up. Okay some people may have wanted that, but had Cameron not made us care it would have been poor storytelling...

Okay, so how was my Dalish Warden tied to the story? He was happy in his clan, he loved being among elves, he was prickly and racist, hated humans, DESPISED humans. All he wanted was to be a hunter for his clan forever, hanging out with Tamlen and Merrill and all his bros.

Then he gets sick and is FORCED to become a Warden to not die -- when he says he doesn't want to, he's Conscripted. Then he watches Duncan KILL the only person at the Joining who also doesn't want to become a Warden. And then he's branded a war criminal.

So here he is. He hates Alistair. He doesn't give a damn about Morrigan. Those are the only two characters he knows. He doesn't want to be a Warden. He's cured of his sickness (sort of), and his clan is still where it was. He doesn't care of humanity dies, because the Dalish mostly hate humans, and the Dalish themselves are nomadic. Plus, he thinks that Alistair can handle the Blight.

So, my friend, how has Bioware tied him to the story? He has a problem that someone else can fix and that he doesn't really care about. He has no reason to be where he is and a happy home and family waiting for him. He doesn't care about any of the people he's with because the first characters you meet are a whiner and a *****. (For the record, I love both Alistair and Morrigan.)

My Warden's motivation is to go home and to make a better life for elves. He sure doesn't care about the Blight, and he DEFINITELY doesn't care about Loghain and Ferelden politics and which human is king of a human kingdom.

How is this so different from Hawke? At least DA2 admits that Hawke is outside the conflict and forced into it by forces outside of her control?

[dantares83]

plot holes with timeline are common for a series... even JKR made some of the plot holes in timeline and had to admit she was 'not very good with Math' to get past angry fans. Anyway, since we are not the creators/writers, we, like what David had said, cannot really do anything about it.

E.g. Leliana can be revived by ashes, Sandal could have visited the tower during the 3 years of time that we 'missed playing'/Hero of Felderan was just imagining him to be there/he can create duplicates blah blah blah

even if it is stupid and cliche, we have to accept it... or we can just stop playing the game/reading the books... totally our choice...

[Oneiropolos]

I personally REALLY appreciate that the writers and devs talk on the forums with us. It means they SEE what people like or don't like. And that counts for more than people realize. Personally, I would love if we could have a timeline of DA:O, DLCS, Awakening, and DA:II, because there seems to be such conflict over this.

As far as Sandal appearing in multiple places...well, remember what Flemmeth said when you brought her back. She gave a whole speech about who says you can only be in one place at one time. If Sandal is indeed something 'more'... we can't take where we saw him and when as something with any validity.

[zyxe]

shantisands wrote...
 Then suddenly even the Justice/Anders personality switch also seems harshly one-dimensional. You start asking yourself: " Is this all a big tale, did ANY of this really happen?  VARRIC?!?"  

It just doesn't. make. sense. logically.  you ask: is this too fantastical at times?    Was the tale concocted by Varric to illustrate Hawke surviving despite this madness or was it a writing teams decision to depict all humanity, magical or not as prone to corruption when bigotry and belief lack empathy and humanity as grounding forces? Or maybe it was just really entertaining and logic shouldn't be used as a barometer of quality/entertainment in the least.   

*boggle*  *ponder*

basically, DA3 will begin with Varric saying, "OK OK, i'll tel you what REALLY happened" and the whole game will be a telling of Hawke in Kirkwall and what REALLY happened. by then they writers will have fixed everything up, what with having another year or so to work it out.

i mean, you think you were fooled when Varric first started telling Hawke's story...

[Noatz]

Oneiropolos wrote...

I personally REALLY appreciate that the writers and devs talk on the forums with us. It means they SEE what people like or don't like. And that counts for more than people realize. Personally, I would love if we could have a timeline of DA:O, DLCS, Awakening, and DA:II, because there seems to be such conflict over this.

I agree, and I also find it refreshing that they come and defend themselves and don't ****foot about like say, Blizzard do. You get the occasional veiled sarcastic barb from them when people whine idiotically, but nothing like that wonderful thread where David Gaider got into a bit of a flame war here. Keep that up do.

The only problem I have noticed is that David Gaider mostly seems to respond to overtly stupid or negative threads, which could lead to more of them once people figure out they can have a good chance of opening dialogue by posting "DAVID GAIDER YOU SUCK!" or "WHERE'S MY LEANDRA INCEST ROMANCE OPTION WTF".

[Bayz]

"Where's Sandal Romance Option?"

[Sagar DKar]

ENNN-CHANTTT-MENTTT {Growl} (Sandal blows out candle)

[inquartata02]

Varric never did say to Cassandra that he was telling the truth, did he? An unreliable narrator makes for a lot of leeway.

Personally, I'm happy about Varric not telling Cassandra about how my Hawke ran away from the Arishok while screaming like a little girl during our so-called "duel."

[Thalorin1919]

inquartata02 wrote...

Varric never did say to Cassandra that he was telling the truth, did he? An unreliable narrator makes for a lot of leeway.

Personally, I'm happy about Varric not telling Cassandra about how my Hawke ran away from the Arishok while screaming like a little girl during our so-called "duel."

That's one reason why I think they had Varric tell the story. So that for DA3, if the players did something differently then the writers wanted all they have to say is, "Well, Varric was lying!"

That's why I'm kind of worried about the continuation for the story in DA3.

[Thalorin1919]

RosaAquafire wrote...

Aloradus wrote...

"if it wasn't for my horse, i wouldn't have spent that year in college."

Regardless of you wanting to connect with the given story.. Bioware took great pains to tie the Warden into the tale, and give him a purpose. 

Lets apply that to a movie - so maybe you didnt care about the Na'Vi in avatar and you just wanted to watch **** blow up. Okay some people may have wanted that, but had Cameron not made us care it would have been poor storytelling...

Okay, so how was my Dalish Warden tied to the story? He was happy in his clan, he loved being among elves, he was prickly and racist, hated humans, DESPISED humans. All he wanted was to be a hunter for his clan forever, hanging out with Tamlen and Merrill and all his bros.

Then he gets sick and is FORCED to become a Warden to not die -- when he says he doesn't want to, he's Conscripted. Then he watches Duncan KILL the only person at the Joining who also doesn't want to become a Warden. And then he's branded a war criminal.

So here he is. He hates Alistair. He doesn't give a damn about Morrigan. Those are the only two characters he knows. He doesn't want to be a Warden. He's cured of his sickness (sort of), and his clan is still where it was. He doesn't care of humanity dies, because the Dalish mostly hate humans, and the Dalish themselves are nomadic. Plus, he thinks that Alistair can handle the Blight.

So, my friend, how has Bioware tied him to the story? He has a problem that someone else can fix and that he doesn't really care about. He has no reason to be where he is and a happy home and family waiting for him. He doesn't care about any of the people he's with because the first characters you meet are a whiner and a *****. (For the record, I love both Alistair and Morrigan.)

My Warden's motivation is to go home and to make a better life for elves. He sure doesn't care about the Blight, and he DEFINITELY doesn't care about Loghain and Ferelden politics and which human is king of a human kingdom.

How is this so different from Hawke? At least DA2 admits that Hawke is outside the conflict and forced into it by forces outside of her control?

Or you know, you can try developing your Dalish Elf as a character rather then being a two-pieced cereal box that "loves his bro's and hates humans".

>.>