665 réponses à ce sujet

[Drew_Weidner]

Why even bother killing companions? The camp is so lonely without the whole gang. In all my Bioware dealings the only character I have ever wanted killed is Mission from KOTOR, but you lost Zaalbar so I stayed my lightsaber.

I understand people want their game to reflect their decisions, but I can't imagine killing off any DA companions (except Loghain, i guess) especially Leliana.

Modifié par Drew_Weidner, 01 avril 2011 - 05:18 .

[RosaAquafire]

Thalorin1919 wrote...
Or you know, you can try developing your Dalish Elf as a character rather then being a two-pieced cereal box that "loves his bro's and hates humans".

>.>

Racism automatically makes someone a poorly developed character? Good to know. I'd go on at length about my dalish elf's authority figure issues, his story arc as he comes to realize that his very slowly developping friendship with Morrigan is more important than racial loyalty in the end, and his tragic love for Tamlen who was straight and never reciprocated and he lost in the end, anyway, but I'm sure you were just trying to make a point on a message board and don't actually care.

Fact is: Origins was great at connecting you to the world. It was not great at connecting you to the Blight or to Ferelden, which is the plot. The Dalish Origin is an especially good example of this. It's amazing at immediately plugging you in ... to the plight of the Dalish. Who have less than 10% to do with the plotline. In the first few HOURS of the game, your only exposure to the things that end up mattering later is Duncan, who basically swoops in, is remarkably unsympathetic to your horrible plight, takes you away from the plot that you actually care about, and then murders the only other dude who didn't want to give his life to an organization that the Dalish Warden has even LESS reason to care about than he did.

My bottom line is that Hawke is at least as connected to the plight of Kirkwall (through living there, through being drawn into it, through relationships with companions, through numerous entanglements with mages/templars, through being a mage/having a mage sister) as the Warden is to the Blight and the politics of Ferelden, and in the case of some Wardens, moreso.

Modifié par RosaAquafire, 01 avril 2011 - 05:55 .

[Admiral Awsome]

The retcons that were most obvious to me were the character retcons.

Leliana, as previously mentioned;

Zevran came back in a side quest despite me killing him (this may just be a bug);

and last, but not least, Anders. In Awakening you had the choice of conscripting him into the Grey Wardens or handing him over to the Templars. If he is handed over then he is not a Grey Warden and should not have access to any Grey Warden maps of the Deep Roads.

Modifié par Admiral Awsome, 01 avril 2011 - 06:16 .

[Darth Krytie]

Admiral Awsome wrote...

The retcons that were most obvious to me were the character retcons.

Leliana, as previously mentioned;

Zevran came back in a side quest despite me killing him (this may just be a bug);

and last, but not least, Anders. In Awakening you had the joice of conscripting him into the Grey Wardens or handing him over to the Templars. If he is handed over then he is not a Grey Warden and should not have access to any Grey Warden maps of the Deep Roads.

Actually, the Anders issue isn't so much that he's a Grey Warden even if you hand him over to the Templars. He could have escaped the Templars (again) and found his way to the Orlesian Warden (or any other Warden) and got himself conscripted. The issue is, if you don't make him a Warden, how does he meet Justice?

[Rifneno]

Admiral Awsome wrote...

The retcons that were most obvious to me were the character retcons.

Leliana, as previously mentioned;

Zevran came back in a side quest despite me killing him (this may just be a bug);

and last, but not least, Anders. In Awakening you had the joice of conscripting him into the Grey Wardens or handing him over to the Templars. If he is handed over then he is not a Grey Warden and should not have access to any Grey Warden maps of the Deep Roads.

And, Justice will attack the Warden unless you pass a very high coercion check should you choose to spare the Architect.  There's no way Justice is just "playing dead."  It'd be more out of character for him than Morrigan shacking up with a templar and starting a kitten orphanage.  If Justice did indeed survive that however, it proves he doesn't need a body to live and thus no need of Anders.

[Raiil]

Admiral Awsome wrote...

The retcons that were most obvious to me were the character retcons.

Leliana, as previously mentioned;

Zevran came back in a side quest despite me killing him (this may just be a bug);

and last, but not least, Anders. In Awakening you had the joice of conscripting him into the Grey Wardens or handing him over to the Templars. If he is handed over then he is not a Grey Warden and should not have access to any Grey Warden maps of the Deep Roads.

I believe one of the writers stated that Anders becomes a Grey Warden regardless, just not necessarily with you. The same can be said for Justice; you can turn him away, but at some juncture, Anders and Justice will meet. It might just be off screen.


And the Zevran thing is a bug, IIRC. That whole quest has a lot of plot flag issues, like not recognising romances.

[Raiil]

Rifneno wrote...

Admiral Awsome wrote...

The retcons that were most obvious to me were the character retcons.

Leliana, as previously mentioned;

Zevran came back in a side quest despite me killing him (this may just be a bug);

and last, but not least, Anders. In Awakening you had the joice of conscripting him into the Grey Wardens or handing him over to the Templars. If he is handed over then he is not a Grey Warden and should not have access to any Grey Warden maps of the Deep Roads.

And, Justice will attack the Warden unless you pass a very high coercion check should you choose to spare the Architect.  There's no way Justice is just "playing dead."  It'd be more out of character for him than Morrigan shacking up with a templar and starting a kitten orphanage.  If Justice did indeed survive that however, it proves he doesn't need a body to live and thus no need of Anders.

There's nothing to say that Justice needs a whole body to live. It's just as plausible that he laid low for a while until he found someone else to inhabit.

[Admiral Awsome]

Valentia X wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Admiral Awsome wrote...

The retcons that were most obvious to me were the character retcons.

Leliana, as previously mentioned;

Zevran came back in a side quest despite me killing him (this may just be a bug);

and last, but not least, Anders. In Awakening you had the joice of conscripting him into the Grey Wardens or handing him over to the Templars. If he is handed over then he is not a Grey Warden and should not have access to any Grey Warden maps of the Deep Roads.

And, Justice will attack the Warden unless you pass a very high coercion check should you choose to spare the Architect.  There's no way Justice is just "playing dead."  It'd be more out of character for him than Morrigan shacking up with a templar and starting a kitten orphanage.  If Justice did indeed survive that however, it proves he doesn't need a body to live and thus no need of Anders.

There's nothing to say that Justice needs a whole body to live. It's just as plausible that he laid low for a while until he found someone else to inhabit.

Justice is a spirit from the Fade. He only needs a body when he crosses the Veil.

[Admiral Awsome]

Valentia X wrote...

I believe one of the writers stated that Anders becomes a Grey Warden regardless, just not necessarily with you. The same can be said for Justice; you can turn him away, but at some juncture, Anders and Justice will meet. It might just be off screen.


And the Zevran thing is a bug, IIRC. That whole quest has a lot of plot flag issues, like not recognising romances.

Was Anders becoming a Warden somewhere else mentioned in game?

[Demx]

Admiral Awsome wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

I believe one of the writers stated that Anders becomes a Grey Warden regardless, just not necessarily with you. The same can be said for Justice; you can turn him away, but at some juncture, Anders and Justice will meet. It might just be off screen.


And the Zevran thing is a bug, IIRC. That whole quest has a lot of plot flag issues, like not recognising romances.

Was Anders becoming a Warden somewhere else mentioned in game?

No it wasn't and there really isn't an explanation as to why Orsino would all of a sudden resort to blood magic when you were winning the battle against the templars.

[Foolsfolly]

I'm trying to actually think of a plot hole in DA2.

....I can't think of one.

This is a good side effect of not having much of a plot to begin with.

Retcons? I made my peace with that. I played games back in the day where there were no imports. So there was a canon ending and you lived with it. I'm fine with people I may have killed off showing up again. It doesn't bother me at all. They're good characters and if there's a future for them then I want to see it.

[The Angry One]

Siradix wrote...

No it wasn't and there really isn't an explanation as to why Orsino would all of a sudden resort to blood magic when you were winning the battle against the templars.

The implication is he was a blood mage all along and every single thing he said was a lie.
Yay for pointlessness!

[RosaAquafire]

Siradix wrote...
No it wasn't and there really isn't an explanation as to why Orsino would all of a sudden resort to blood magic when you were winning the battle against the templars.

Because he'd been strongly hinted from Act 2 as being a crazy mf hiding beneath a mild-mannered exetiour?

The Angry One wrote...
The implication is he was a blood mage all along and every single thing he said was a lie.
Yay for pointlessness!

Angry mage supporters make me smile

You so rarely see templar supporters getting mad when Meredith turned against you and repaid your loyalty and devotion to order by calling you a lying sneak. Mage supporters, on the other hand.

Come on, if you didn't immediately realzie that "O" was "Orsino ..."

Modifié par RosaAquafire, 01 avril 2011 - 06:32 .

[Foolsfolly]

The Angry One wrote...

Siradix wrote...

No it wasn't and there really isn't an explanation as to why Orsino would all of a sudden resort to blood magic when you were winning the battle against the templars.

The implication is he was a blood mage all along and every single thing he said was a lie.
Yay for pointlessness!

It's a heavy handed implication too since he helped the GUY WHO KILLED YOUR MOTHER and seemed to be friends with him if that note we find means anything. And you side with the Templar and he knows enough about blood magic and necromancy to prepare the rite to turn himself into a Harvester.

And previously the only Harvester we've seen was one a Tevinter magister made out of casteless bodies and a Fade spirit. So...it can't be easy to do what he did.

No way he glanced at some research notes and pulled that off. Man was a blood mage for years. Otherwise he wouldn't keep the notes either, it'd be a death sentence if a Templar found them.

[Raiil]

Admiral Awsome wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

I believe one of the writers stated that Anders becomes a Grey Warden regardless, just not necessarily with you. The same can be said for Justice; you can turn him away, but at some juncture, Anders and Justice will meet. It might just be off screen.


And the Zevran thing is a bug, IIRC. That whole quest has a lot of plot flag issues, like not recognising romances.

Was Anders becoming a Warden somewhere else mentioned in game?

No, just in the forums, but from what I can tell, Anders tends to be rather vague about his time spent with the Wardens. There are holes regardless, unless he never mentions Pounce in a playthrough where the Warden doesn't recruit him.

We'd need someone to import a playthrough with someone who didn't recruit him to be sure, though, unless someone wants to wade through his talk table.

[The Angry One]

Foolsfolly wrote...

No way he glanced at some research notes and pulled that off. Man was a blood mage for years. Otherwise he wouldn't keep the notes either, it'd be a death sentence if a Templar found them.

Exactly. I don't get how some people claim he became a blood mage on the spot out of desperation.
Even in DA2 where people pull demons and abominations out of their asses nobody's just going to make a Harvester their first time.

[Demx]

But we were winning the battle.

[Admiral Awsome]

Siradix wrote...

No it wasn't and there really isn't an explanation as to why Orsino would all of a sudden resort to blood magic when you were winning the battle against the templars.

And become a recycled monster to boot. He becomes a harvester from Golems of Amgarrak, which has a different story behind its creation.

Modifié par Admiral Awsome, 01 avril 2011 - 06:34 .

[RosaAquafire]

Siradix wrote...

But we were winning the battle.

And Orsino was unhinged. What's your point?

[Parrk]

It seems that the save import option has brought Bio nothing but grief with this game. They probably should have excluded it, but then again, the screaming may have been worse. I think they delivered as much has they could in the way of continuity, but it never could have been perfect.

If you consider the larger picture, you may realize that this issue is being presented in the wrong scope of view. There are any number of game-related types of content that particular groups of fans expect out of a fantasy series video game.

There are those who read the books and enjoy them. I would think that those books are more enjoyable when they recount unknown stories of familiar character before of after their time with the warden/champion.

There are those who really enjoy cameos by characters from previous games for no other reason than it reminds them of the fun they had with that installment, and it is like seeing an old friend.

There are those who get deeply into the lore and may consume all available resources. They want character fiction pieces by Bio writers and pretty much everything else they can get their hands on to enable them to further explore the world.

Lastly, there are those whose bull-headed insistence on contrived continuity mixes with their own over-inflated sense of self-importance to create a perfect storm of "me me me".

In the end, you must realize that in order for Bio to offer Cameos, and character add-on fiction pieces, and allow for the use of known characters in books and other media, then they alone must be allowed to write the "official" accounts of what became of those characters.

Perhaps you could come to see the choices in the games as a "what would you have done" journey through a similar space-time variant.

However you choose to handle your own issues, please try to understand that these characters are on loan to you. What ultimately becomes of them will be exactly what the writers at Bio choose to be so. Would it be fair for all DA fans to be denied a neat little story about one of the companions written in a fit of boredom and posted to the boards by one of the writers whose work we all appreciate so much simply so that you can feel that your arbitrary choice to not use that character in ONE of your runs has been respected?

I played DAO enough times to have made nearly ever combination of choices available. I will do the same here. The devs chose to insert people you may have killed a few times as key players in sometimes-important aspects of this games story.

Given all the things that might have been more finely-tuned given a longer dev time, pandering to some choice I both made, and declined to make on 30 occasions 2 years ago is pretty low on the list.

Lastly, that is not retconning anyway. Retcon is when they revise their story to fit new circumstances. They never killed those toons, but simply provided you with the option to have done so within your own other-dimensional, WW I D pontification software.

tl:dr; you actually didn't kill them, because they were never yours to kill.......and not everything is about you.

[Demx]

RosaAquafire wrote...

Siradix wrote...

But we were winning the battle.

And Orsino was unhinged. What's your point?

The top of my head apparently, even if he was demented, why wait until that point? Hawke kills all the templars in his path and then he decides to jump off what little pier he has?

[RosaAquafire]

Siradix wrote...

RosaAquafire wrote...

Siradix wrote...

But we were winning the battle.

And Orsino was unhinged. What's your point?

The top of my head apparently, even if he was demented, why wait until that point? Hawke kills all the templars in his path and then he decides to jump off what little pier he has?

Hawke has killed the Templars. The Circle is practically safe. Orsino can now choose to hand authority over to him/her, or he can kill him and take control of the Circle for himself -- or, if he's smart enough to know there's no coming back from becoming a flesh golem, at least give control of the circle to someone else within it, one of his own seniour enchanters. Orsino is a liar, and crazy, and power-hungry, all established if you're paying attention. Use Hawke and then kill him, for the good of evil mages everywhere.

Where's the plot hole, exactly?

[Raiil]

Siradix wrote...

RosaAquafire wrote...

Siradix wrote...

But we were winning the battle.

And Orsino was unhinged. What's your point?

The top of my head apparently, even if he was demented, why wait until that point? Hawke kills all the templars in his path and then he decides to jump off what little pier he has?

Because he was pushed to it. We don't exactly know Orsino's motivation in learning about blood magic- surely all First Enchanters have a decent amount of knowledge, but Orsino's reason for pursuing it remains something of a mystery. He could have been a really careful blood mage all along. He may have simply been interested in it academically and in a crap situation, took his own leap into the abyss. Maybe he thought he could control himself, maybe he folded in his despair, maybe he was so hellbent on revenge that he didn't care or, or what, got in path of total destruction.

[The Angry One]

RosaAquafire wrote...

Hawke has killed the Templars. The Circle is practically safe. Orsino can now choose to hand authority over to him/her, or he can kill him and take control of the Circle for himself -- or, if he's smart enough to know there's no coming back from becoming a flesh golem, at least give control of the circle to someone else within it, one of his own seniour enchanters. Orsino is a liar, and crazy, and power-hungry, all established if you're paying attention. Use Hawke and then kill him, for the good of evil mages everywhere.

Where's the plot hole, exactly?

That makes no sense.

[Demx]

RosaAquafire wrote...

Hawke has killed the Templars. The Circle is practically safe. Orsino can now choose to hand authority over to him/her, or he can kill him and take control of the Circle for himself -- or, if he's smart enough to know there's no coming back from becoming a flesh golem, at least give control of the circle to someone else within it, one of his own seniour enchanters. Orsino is a liar, and crazy, and power-hungry, all established if you're paying attention. Use Hawke and then kill him, for the good of evil mages everywhere.

Where's the plot hole, exactly?

The part where I said I was going to take over the circle.  My Hawke wanted the mages to be free, not to assume direct control over the circle.

Valentia X wrote...

Because he was pushed to it. We don't
exactly know Orsino's motivation in learning about blood magic- surely
all First Enchanters have a decent amount of knowledge, but Orsino's
reason for pursuing it remains something of a mystery. He could have
been a really careful blood mage all along. He may have simply been
interested in it academically and in a crap situation, took his own leap
into the abyss. Maybe he thought he could control himself, maybe he
folded in his despair, maybe he was so hellbent on revenge that he
didn't care or, or what, got in path of total destruction.

How was he pushed to it after the templars were all dead? Sure I could believe that if he turned into a Harvester when the templars first stormed in killing all those mages, but not after.

Modifié par Siradix, 01 avril 2011 - 06:48 .