665 réponses à ce sujet

[Torax]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Siradix wrote...

No it wasn't and there really isn't an explanation as to why Orsino would all of a sudden resort to blood magic when you were winning the battle against the templars.

The implication is he was a blood mage all along and every single thing he said was a lie.
Yay for pointlessness!

It's a heavy handed implication too since he helped the GUY WHO KILLED YOUR MOTHER and seemed to be friends with him if that note we find means anything. And you side with the Templar and he knows enough about blood magic and necromancy to prepare the rite to turn himself into a Harvester.

And previously the only Harvester we've seen was one a Tevinter magister made out of casteless bodies and a Fade spirit. So...it can't be easy to do what he did.

No way he glanced at some research notes and pulled that off. Man was a blood mage for years. Otherwise he wouldn't keep the notes either, it'd be a death sentence if a Templar found them.

Yup and when he asks you to hunt down a meeting of Mages & Templars it's basically like when Mother P sends you to kill the Templar. He was just trying to get you on his side since you were already helping Meredith. He wants you as an ally. Plays nice and innocent. While Meredith is very unstable and paranoid. You can see why. While not all mages are corrupt in Kirkwall and or the Circle, there are so many of the bad ones about to just feed the gutters more blood. I knew that ending was going to be nasty once I saw that letter signed O. I just knew there was nothing I could do about.

That is the truly only dissapointing part about how the game ends. That no matter what the same bosses die. See pointless to me. The only real control the player has is their companions and if their Sibling dies. Rest is out of their hands. This doesn't make or break the game. Just doesn't help to make it compeling either.

[RosaAquafire]

The Angry One wrote...

RosaAquafire wrote...

Hawke has killed the Templars. The Circle is practically safe. Orsino can now choose to hand authority over to him/her, or he can kill him and take control of the Circle for himself -- or, if he's smart enough to know there's no coming back from becoming a flesh golem, at least give control of the circle to someone else within it, one of his own seniour enchanters. Orsino is a liar, and crazy, and power-hungry, all established if you're paying attention. Use Hawke and then kill him, for the good of evil mages everywhere.

Where's the plot hole, exactly?

That makes no sense.

Please, explain why! I'm not being smug, I legitimately want to know. I've only seen the scene in videos, as both my first Hawkes sided with the templars.

Siradix wrote...
The
part where I said I was going to take over the circle.  My Hawke wanted
the mages to be free, not to assume direct control over the circle.

Orsino doesn't know that. He's crazy, rememeber? And ammoral. And also, he helped murder your mother, and he has a good reason to not want you alive to come after him when you figure it out.

Modifié par RosaAquafire, 01 avril 2011 - 06:48 .

[The Angry One]

RosaAquafire wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

RosaAquafire wrote...

Hawke has killed the Templars. The Circle is practically safe. Orsino can now choose to hand authority over to him/her, or he can kill him and take control of the Circle for himself -- or, if he's smart enough to know there's no coming back from becoming a flesh golem, at least give control of the circle to someone else within it, one of his own seniour enchanters. Orsino is a liar, and crazy, and power-hungry, all established if you're paying attention. Use Hawke and then kill him, for the good of evil mages everywhere.

Where's the plot hole, exactly?

That makes no sense.

Please, explain why! I'm not being smug, I legitimately want to know. I've only seen the scene in videos, as both my first Hawkes sided with the templars.

Hawke's relationship with Orsino if you've sided with the mages all along is amicable as hell, they're in a solid position where they're defending from the Templars, Orsino has already sent other mages of to spread the word of Templar atrocities.
Basically there's no reason to be against Hawke because Hawke is supporting Orsino 100% and doesn't know about his association with Quentin and they have at least a chance of driving back the Templars.
It makes no sense for Orsino, however evil he is to dispose of Hawke or destroy himself.

Orsino doesn't know that. He's crazy, rememeber? And ammoral. And also, he helped murder your mother, and he has a good reason to not want you alive to come after him when you figure it out.

Orsino has kept his blood magic a secret from the ultra paranoid Knight-Commander for years, I think he can keep that under wraps if he really wants to.

Modifié par The Angry One, 01 avril 2011 - 06:52 .

[Raiil]

Siradix wrote...

RosaAquafire wrote...

Hawke has killed the Templars. The Circle is practically safe. Orsino can now choose to hand authority over to him/her, or he can kill him and take control of the Circle for himself -- or, if he's smart enough to know there's no coming back from becoming a flesh golem, at least give control of the circle to someone else within it, one of his own seniour enchanters. Orsino is a liar, and crazy, and power-hungry, all established if you're paying attention. Use Hawke and then kill him, for the good of evil mages everywhere.

Where's the plot hole, exactly?

The part where I said I was going to take over the circle.  My Hawke wanted the mages to be free, not to assume direct control over the circle.

Valentia X wrote...

Because he was pushed to it. We don't
exactly know Orsino's motivation in learning about blood magic- surely
all First Enchanters have a decent amount of knowledge, but Orsino's
reason for pursuing it remains something of a mystery. He could have
been a really careful blood mage all along. He may have simply been
interested in it academically and in a crap situation, took his own leap
into the abyss. Maybe he thought he could control himself, maybe he
folded in his despair, maybe he was so hellbent on revenge that he
didn't care or, or what, got in path of total destruction.

How was he pushed to it after the templars were all dead? Sure I could believe that if he turned into a Harvester when the templars first stormed in killing all those mages, but not after.

Mages die as well. The mages he cares for, has tried to protect, all of them are dead. Why wouldn't he cave? Like I said, it might simply be that he well and truly cracks and is looking to go out with a big bang, regardless of people who might be hurt, allies included.

[The Angry One]

Valentia X wrote...

Mages die as well. The mages he cares for, has tried to protect, all of them are dead. Why wouldn't he cave? Like I said, it might simply be that he well and truly cracks and is looking to go out with a big bang, regardless of people who might be hurt, allies included.

So why not go Harvester as soon as the templars start attacking? Why did he wait until Hawke practically won?

[RosaAquafire]

The Angry One wrote...

RosaAquafire wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

RosaAquafire wrote...

Hawke has killed the Templars. The Circle is practically safe. Orsino can now choose to hand authority over to him/her, or he can kill him and take control of the Circle for himself -- or, if he's smart enough to know there's no coming back from becoming a flesh golem, at least give control of the circle to someone else within it, one of his own seniour enchanters. Orsino is a liar, and crazy, and power-hungry, all established if you're paying attention. Use Hawke and then kill him, for the good of evil mages everywhere.

Where's the plot hole, exactly?

That makes no sense.

Please, explain why! I'm not being smug, I legitimately want to know. I've only seen the scene in videos, as both my first Hawkes sided with the templars.

Hawke's relationship with Orsino if you've sided with the mages all along is amicable as hell, they're in a solid position where they're defending from the Templars, Orsino has already sent other mages of to spread the word of Templar atrocities.
Basically there's no reason to be against Hawke because Hawke is supporting Orsino 100% and doesn't know about his association with Quentin and they have at least a chance of driving back the Templars.
It makes no sense for Orsino, however evil he is to dispose of Hawke or destroy himself.

Except for the fact that he did murder your mother. Orsino is a smooth operator and a good liar. And a murderer. Who murdered your mother. There's no reason for him to not want to dispose of Hawke. Hawke is shaping up to be the most important person in the world, if you actually defeat the templars. I can't imagine why it's illogical for Orsino, who is crazy, immoral, and has reason to think Hawke is gonna come after him eventually, wouldn't take that moment to make himself the hero for all mages by putting Hawke out of the picture.

[Demx]

RosaAquafire wrote...

Siradix wrote...
The
part where I said I was going to take over the circle.  My Hawke wanted
the mages to be free, not to assume direct control over the circle.

Orsino doesn't know that. He's crazy, rememeber? And ammoral. And also, he helped murder your mother, and he has a good reason to not want you alive to come after him when you figure it out.

That sounds more like an excuse, something has to be the trigger. Him going nuts right after seeing the death of the mages and before I started fighting the templars would have made sense.

Modifié par Siradix, 01 avril 2011 - 06:55 .

[Torax]

RosaAquafire wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

RosaAquafire wrote...

Hawke has killed the Templars. The Circle is practically safe. Orsino can now choose to hand authority over to him/her, or he can kill him and take control of the Circle for himself -- or, if he's smart enough to know there's no coming back from becoming a flesh golem, at least give control of the circle to someone else within it, one of his own seniour enchanters. Orsino is a liar, and crazy, and power-hungry, all established if you're paying attention. Use Hawke and then kill him, for the good of evil mages everywhere.

Where's the plot hole, exactly?

That makes no sense.

Please, explain why! I'm not being smug, I legitimately want to know. I've only seen the scene in videos, as both my first Hawkes sided with the templars.

Siradix wrote...
The
part where I said I was going to take over the circle.  My Hawke wanted
the mages to be free, not to assume direct control over the circle.

Orsino doesn't know that. He's crazy, rememeber? And ammoral. And also, he helped murder your mother, and he has a good reason to not want you alive to come after him when you figure it out.

He's a dirty Mage no doubt. But he seems to just get frustrated to no end. He basically says, "So they want blood magic? I'll give them blood magic!" But cause he gave in to the magic he is then out of control and you have to fight him.

Power hungry? Maybe, though I think Meredith was far more power hungry. They're both not saints. He becomes a monster that can't tell friend from foe. She just attacks you after calling you a traitor or whatever because you threaten her control. Why would she do that? Now that the circle is annuled she can't use that as the reason for all her control measures.

Meredith wants control of all of Kirkwall. She'd have to appoint a Viscount and since she doesn't have a puppet like Dumar, she doesn't want to. So she has to kill you. The nobles would cry for you to be the Viscount. Especially for helping cull the mages. So she brands you enemy and attacks. End up fighting her last either way. Both Meredith and Orsino were dirty. Both were playing in dark things they shouldn't have.

[RosaAquafire]

Siradix wrote...
That sounds more like an excuse, something has to be the trigger. Him going nuts right after seeing the death of the mages and before I started fighting the templars would have made sense.

Hey, I'm not saying that it's perfect, just that it is, at worst, a bit of clumsy storytelling. I think Orsino should have have more development, he and Meredith both, to make their betrayals more meaningful. But it's not a plothole. Or a retcon. Or anything of the sort.

Torax wrote...

He's a dirty Mage no doubt. But he seems to
just get frustrated to no end. He basically says, "So they want blood
magic? I'll give them blood magic!" But cause he gave in to the magic he
is then out of control and you have to fight him.

Power hungry?
Maybe, though I think Meredith was far more power hungry. They're both
not saints. He becomes a monster that can't tell friend from foe. She
just attacks you after calling you a traitor or whatever because you
threaten her control. Why would she do that? Now that the circle is
annuled she can't use that as the reason for all her control measures.

Meredith
wants control of all of Kirkwall. She'd have to appoint a Viscount and
since she doesn't have a puppet like Dumar, she doesn't want to. So she
has to kill you. The nobles would cry for you to be the Viscount.
Especially for helping cull the mages. So she brands you enemy and
attacks. End up fighting her last either way. Both Meredith and Orsino
were dirty. Both were playing in dark things they shouldn't have.

I agree with all of this, myself! Though Meredith -- I actually think she DID think you were working with Orsino at the end. She was paranoid to the absolute bat guano extreme.

Modifié par RosaAquafire, 01 avril 2011 - 06:58 .

[Raiil]

The Angry One wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Mages die as well. The mages he cares for, has tried to protect, all of them are dead. Why wouldn't he cave? Like I said, it might simply be that he well and truly cracks and is looking to go out with a big bang, regardless of people who might be hurt, allies included.

So why not go Harvester as soon as the templars start attacking? Why did he wait until Hawke practically won?

Because it's a hollow victory for him. What does he care that Hawke's coming up on top? That doesn't change the dead around him in the siding with the mages playthrough.
 
It's an irrational response to an irrational situation. Expecting Spock-logic from emotional creatures in a highly tense situation doesn't really make much sense either. The world has gone to hell, why not go with it? Why not become the monster? 

[The Angry One]

RosaAquafire wrote...

Except for the fact that he did murder your mother. Orsino is a smooth operator and a good liar. And a murderer. Who murdered your mother. There's no reason for him to not want to dispose of Hawke. Hawke is shaping up to be the most important person in the world, if you actually defeat the templars. I can't imagine why it's illogical for Orsino, who is crazy, immoral, and has reason to think Hawke is gonna come after him eventually, wouldn't take that moment to make himself the hero for all mages by putting Hawke out of the picture.

He didn't directly murder anyone, nor did he do it for the sake of murder.
He's guilty of being an accomplice certainly but that's not the same thing. It would be more logical for a crazy immoral Orsino to use Hawke, because Hawke doesn't want to be First Enchanter or anything or hell, using a non-mage Hawke would be even better. "Look! Even the mundanes support mages!".

[Torax]

The Angry One wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Mages die as well. The mages he cares for, has tried to protect, all of them are dead. Why wouldn't he cave? Like I said, it might simply be that he well and truly cracks and is looking to go out with a big bang, regardless of people who might be hurt, allies included.

So why not go Harvester as soon as the templars start attacking? Why did he wait until Hawke practically won?

Hawke wasn't done. Meredith and like half of her forces were still outside. He was doing it for that. Just well, he got all berserk on yah.

[RosaAquafire]

The Angry One wrote...

RosaAquafire wrote...

Except for the fact that he did murder your mother. Orsino is a smooth operator and a good liar. And a murderer. Who murdered your mother. There's no reason for him to not want to dispose of Hawke. Hawke is shaping up to be the most important person in the world, if you actually defeat the templars. I can't imagine why it's illogical for Orsino, who is crazy, immoral, and has reason to think Hawke is gonna come after him eventually, wouldn't take that moment to make himself the hero for all mages by putting Hawke out of the picture.

He didn't directly murder anyone, nor did he do it for the sake of murder.
He's guilty of being an accomplice certainly but that's not the same thing. It would be more logical for a crazy immoral Orsino to use Hawke, because Hawke doesn't want to be First Enchanter or anything or hell, using a non-mage Hawke would be even better. "Look! Even the mundanes support mages!".

If your Hawke wouldn't have killed Orsino for what he did, that's cool and valid, but mine sure would have, "only" an accomplice or not. Also, Quentin didn't do it for the sake of murder, either!

I think that's reasonable, but, again: not a plot hole. Mildly clumsy storytelling. It makes sense the way it happened, it just could have made more sense in a different way, or with more build up.

[Deztyn]

Eh. This is already years after Leandra's death. Hawke has no idea. Orsino has no reason to believe Hawke has any idea. Orsino has no reason to think Hawke will ever get the idea. Anyone who knew about Orsino's involvement has been dead for years. Hawke and Orsino are practically BFFs at this point.

[gelfie]

"Retconning" is why I no longer bother with comics. If a writer wants to change a story, I'd rather that they took the time write a new one.

Dragon Age 2 bore so little resemblance to the first game that it was pointless to have imported my saved game. It was nice to hear the Warden referred to as "she" but that along with Alistair having gained the throne minus Anora were the only things from my game-play that made it through to the second game.

There was little point to making Lothering as the starting point suffice to serve as a means of giving us some much valued time with Flemeth. Alas, Flemeth's inclusion in the game was all too brief.

Why not start off at Denerim or better yet, Amaranthine where any choices made in Awakening would have a tangible effect on what enemies you face there. There's just so little to love about Dragon Age 2 and everything from the lack of variety in all aspects of the game through to the obstructive bugs and a storyline that constantly seems to fight itself thus never gets going just make this little better than an amateur re-write of a good story made for an audience of marketers.

Egads. It's as if Dragon Age Origins has been NGE'd!

Edited to add: I certainly found things to enjoy about DA 2 but there is just too much about the game that could have been so much better so I do regret having pre-ordered and wish that I had instead, waited for a sale.

Modifié par gelfie, 01 avril 2011 - 07:09 .

[Torax]

Let's just take Orsino like DA2's version of Zathrian. Just you had to be Dalish. Then he is all nice to you and doesn't treat you like trash.

Modifié par Torax, 01 avril 2011 - 07:02 .

[DanteCousland]

Didn't Mike Laidlaw say that Origins was 1 - 2 years in one of those pre release pod casts....
and yes I am important enough to create my own thread at least the devs replied, proves my point so the sycophants need to calm down .

Modifié par DanteCousland, 01 avril 2011 - 07:10 .

[nicethugbert]

The DA story is written before the game and published as a novel correct? In other words, the game is based on DA cannon lore, correct? So, how can people take their play through as the definitive DA story?

By killing major plot characters you are asking major events to not happen or for a stand in to automagically appear to hold the plot together. Either way, people are going to complain that their choices do not matter or that the character's personalities don't matter.

By busting The Dev's balls about this sort of thing you're practically begging them to take choice out of the game series.

[Rifneno]

Deztyn wrote...

Eh. This is already years after Leandra's death. Hawke has no idea. Orsino has no reason to believe Hawke has any idea. Orsino has no reason to think Hawke will ever get the idea. Anyone who knew about Orsino's involvement has been dead for years. Hawke and Orsino are practically BFFs at this point.

This.  We as the nearly-all-seeing player know that Orsino was evil, but Hawke doesn't know it.  No matter how much you logic away that he/she should, they just plain don't.

The whole thing made no sense.  Most of Act 3 made no sense, and as soon as Anders blew up the Chantry we were in the Twilight Zone.  It sucks, but that's how it is.

[DanteCousland]

Oh and I never said you were in charge of everything I said you were "The Lead writer and spent alot of time on the forums".

[The Angry One]

RosaAquafire wrote...

If your Hawke wouldn't have killed Orsino for what he did, that's cool and valid, but mine sure would have, "only" an accomplice or not. Also, Quentin didn't do it for the sake of murder, either!

I think that's reasonable, but, again: not a plot hole. Mildly clumsy storytelling. It makes sense the way it happened, it just could have made more sense in a different way, or with more build up.

That presumes Hawke finding out, which they haven't.

[Torax]

The Angry One wrote...

RosaAquafire wrote...

If your Hawke wouldn't have killed Orsino for what he did, that's cool and valid, but mine sure would have, "only" an accomplice or not. Also, Quentin didn't do it for the sake of murder, either!

I think that's reasonable, but, again: not a plot hole. Mildly clumsy storytelling. It makes sense the way it happened, it just could have made more sense in a different way, or with more build up.

That presumes Hawke finding out, which they haven't.

My only complaint from a story standpoint is not having the ability to ask.

[DanteCousland]

Toegoff sums up this game perfectly for me at the end of origins he was close to tears whilst as he finishes DA2 he just states, quite sadly at that "What a horrible ending". Read his review on his forums hes absolutely right imo with the game having a lack of story with it seeming to be miniseries between the acts.

Modifié par DanteCousland, 01 avril 2011 - 03:38 .

[Saibh]

Currently what's bugging me, since someone else brought it up, is why Sebastian would ask a mage to join the Chantry.

Why?