665 réponses à ce sujet

[Statulos]

Persephone wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

The point of killing a character is not so they won't come back. That's not the point of the option being there.

As I said before, not every choice you make will have the result you think it will. This doesn't mean everyone's leaping back to life at random, and with regards to Leliana we haven't explained what's up-- and won't anytime soon.

You, sir, are a sadistic (loveable) tease. Now I'm all the more curious about Leliana and her involvement. I would have liked to see more of her in DAO. But knowing that her tale is obviously far from finished is wonderful indeed! Thank you for hinting at that. (Dare I call it a confirmation?)

Sacred Ashes. You can pretty much say anything after what happened there becuase everyone in the temple was sky high on something better than LSD.

[Franka]

I am interested to see the DLC that will come out. Maybe it will feel some of these plot holes people are complaining about.
Personnel i thought the game was well made and i had fun playing it and will play it again.
I wish there was more interaction with the group and being able to give your group different armor and weapons.
The ratings the fans gave on game spot were a little harsh and oddly the critic's scored it higher than the fans...
I think allot of people expected origins. This is not origins but could be equally great.
Just give it time to be its own and try to separate it from the last game.

[David Gaider]

JakePT wrote...
Picture you're reading a book, say, since I know you've read it, A Game of Thrones. Now say a major character who dies shows up in A Clash of Kings, perfectly OK. It appears the death didn't happen, their head is on their shoulders and none of the other characters seem to think anything is up. Now, I don't know about you, but that's just downright stupid. How would that be acceptable storytelling in any medium?

That depends on whether it's ever explained at all.

If it is, and I just don't like the explanation. then I rant for a while about stupid author perogative and how the story in my head was so much better... and when I calm down, I go back to reading. Or I don't. It's not a science.

I can't think of any film/book/play sequel or anything where a major character has DIED only for them to show up in the sequel with the events that caused their death never happening.

What never happened? Who said something never happened?

In any other medium it would be bad, not to mention lazy, storytelling, but because it's a game it gets a free pass? No, sorry, you don't. The story you've told me has terrible continuity. Oh? You say that it would make sense to some other people you told the story to? I don't care!

Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're talking about, here. Who said anything about a free pass? And who are these other people I told the story to? What?

And I do believe continuity in important, incidentally. That doesn't mean I'm not going to occasionally arrange events to happen the way I want them to (or need them to). If that means I don't consider some things sacred cows the way you do-- then I guess we're at an impasse. Sorry about that.

[Maria Caliban]

This isn't exactly new. You could kill Jaheria, Imoen, Viconia, and Minsc in the original BG, but they all came back in BG 2.

I prefer the Dragon Age team's method of letting some decisions carry and some decisions not carry over the Mass Effect team having every decision carry but in an utterly shallow way.

[Icy Magebane]

I'd just rather not deal with options that will be overturned later... it's fine if the writers want it that way, but all this taught me is not to expect everything to matter. A valuable lesson that I think will increase my enjoyment of the series. And hell, if I'm wrong about that too? It'll be a pleasant surprise. It's fine. The only reason I even killed Leliana in my canon playthrough was to see the results in DA2. If that's not something that was meant to be translated, then it's my fault for expecting the series to be something it was not intended to be.

Edit:  Also, I haven't read this whole thread yet, but the story isn't nearly as bad as people keep claiming.  I liked it.  Honestly, you need to play more than once to notice how intricately things are woven together... or at least, I did.  Whatever... everyone's taste is different.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 03 avril 2011 - 09:00 .

[GodWood]

As long as there is acknowledgement of Leliana's resurrection and a decent explantion for it I'll be fine.

(oh, and she'll have to really hate my warden)

[22nd MadJack]

David Gaider wrote...

JakePT wrote...
Picture you're reading a book, say, since I know you've read it, A Game of Thrones. Now say a major character who dies shows up in A Clash of Kings, perfectly OK. It appears the death didn't happen, their head is on their shoulders and none of the other characters seem to think anything is up. Now, I don't know about you, but that's just downright stupid. How would that be acceptable storytelling in any medium?

That depends on whether it's ever explained at all.

If it is, and I just don't like the explanation. then I rant for a while about stupid author perogative and how the story in my head was so much better... and when I calm down, I go back to reading. Or I don't. It's not a science.

Don't bring poor George R R Martin into this.  If he were to sit down and play DA2 I don't think he'd have the slightest idea Thedas was inspired by A Song of Ice and Fire.  How could he?  Martin wrote Adult Fantasy;  which is socially accurate to the time period it reflects rather than being a soft contemporary adaptation.  Westeros is a world of  inequality, misogyny, political intrigue, mythical beasts, grand conflicts and sexual deviance.  DA2 is a world of bursting bodices, cartoon combat, comedy gore, and flagrant contemporaryism. 

Comparing the two is like comparing the Wire with the Teletubbies.  In the teletubbies you can get away with pretty much anything, and damn consistency.

Modifié par 22nd MadJack, 03 avril 2011 - 10:30 .

[MorrigansLove]

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
No clue. My favorite so far is the thread addressed to David that complains about companion inventory being static.

I read that Jennifer ruined combat in the game because she's not a fan of combat, despite having nothing whatsoever to do with that part of the game.

As for me, speaking on the forums evidently makes me in charge of everything that goes into the game, and I get to write whatever takes my fancy. Because this is how game development works, didn't you know?

DanteCousland wrote...
Contray to your popular beleif of
peop;e crying plothole whenever they see something they either "Don't
understand or don't like"  that doesn't mean that Dragon Age 2 isn't
riddled with some very big story flaws. Namely Plotholes and retcons.

And? I said that people often misuse the term "cliffhangers" as much as they do "plot hole" and "cliche"... because they do. That doesn't mean that everyone does so, or that they're always wrong.

Lelianas Miraculous revival.
Yes you can do it, it's your game but for those who killed her it makes
no sense and before yoyu go "But you was in a room full of magic dust
L0L" let me mention she only turns on you if you DESTROY the ashes and
take what you want for Eamon...Also when I killed her i did a
decapitation move on her, pretty sure it's tricky to heal that.

I don't think we've offered any kind of explanation regarding Leliana yet.

The
Timing doesn't add up. It takes only a small amount of common sense to
realise that when you arrive at Kirkwall the events of Awakening should
be happening. DAA BEGAN 6 months after origins. Yet you meet Anders and
Sandal 1 year and the maxinum of 2-3 months (although 2-3 months is a
stretch for the flight from ostagar/ lothering to 2 weeks on a ship and 4
days in the gallows...)... This isn't even mentioning Sandal being in
Witch Hunt which was 6 months or soafte awakening correct, by then he is
definitely in Kirkwall.

I'll just kindly point out that your assumption of how much time passed in Awakening, when there's nothing in the game that suggests anything more than the 6 months between Origin's end and Awakening's start, does not constitute a plot hole. Merely an erroneous assumption on your part.

But feel free to prove my point.

As for whether or not you or anyone else thinks that good storytelling is involved, I simply said that I understood the origin of the complaints even if not the conclusion drawn. I'm not passing judgement on someone's opinion. If you don't like something, I'm sure the technicality of whether or not it's a cliffhanger or plot hole is unimportant-- but as someone who uses words for a living I feel compelled to point out when they're abused. That said, any reasonable feedback is welcome.

Do you have any understanding on how badly written Bethany's Death in the deep roads was?

[22nd MadJack]

MorrigansLove wrote...

Do you have any understanding on how badly written Bethany's Death in the deep roads was?

A veritable Pulitzer in comparison to 'All That Remains' and the shambling mum zombie.  Oh the humanity.

Modifié par 22nd MadJack, 03 avril 2011 - 10:23 .

[DanteCousland]

22nd MadJack wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

JakePT wrote...
Picture you're reading a book, say, since I know you've read it, A Game of Thrones. Now say a major character who dies shows up in A Clash of Kings, perfectly OK. It appears the death didn't happen, their head is on their shoulders and none of the other characters seem to think anything is up. Now, I don't know about you, but that's just downright stupid. How would that be acceptable storytelling in any medium?

That depends on whether it's ever explained at all.

If it is, and I just don't like the explanation. then I rant for a while about stupid author perogative and how the story in my head was so much better... and when I calm down, I go back to reading. Or I don't. It's not a science.

Don't bring poor George R R Martin into this.  If he were to sit down and play DA2 I don't think he'd have the slightest idea Thedas was inspired by A Song of Ice and Fire.  How could he?  Martin wrote Adult Fantasy;  which is socially accurate to the time period it reflects rather than being a soft contemporary adaptation.  Westeros is a world of  inequality, misogyny, political intrigue, mythical beasts, grand conflicts and sexual deviance.  DA2 is a world of bursting bodices, cartoon combat, comedy gore, and flagrant contemporaryism. 

Comparing the two is like comparing the Wire with the Teletubbies.  In the teletubbies you can get away with pretty much anything, and damn consistency.

This 1000 times this. I really do get the feeling that DA2 was trying too hard to be gritty and realistic.

[22nd MadJack]

DanteCousland wrote...

This 1000 times this. I really do get the feeling that DA2 was trying too hard to be gritty and realistic.

Trying to be realistic ... really?  I wouldn't say trying at all.  

HBO are trying.

Weapons  http://www.youtube.c.../28/3XSReDJYHsM  
Armour      http://www.youtube.c.../29/ByPPttuyVgQ 
Costumes http://www.youtube.c...u/3/F_iFAjvYFo4 
Fear and Blood http://www.youtube.c.../25/5PxLidxnAE8  

[Avissel]

Westeros is a world of  inequality:
The elves are forced to live as second class citizines, mages are imprisined simply for living. The Casteless are treated like scum because of something ancestors did who knows how long ago.

political intrigue:
Members of the worlds primary Religion tried to instigate a holy war against the Qunari on the grounds that people were converting. The Leader of Fereldin's army staged a coup to protect against imaginary invaders from Orlai

mythical beasts:
Dragon, Ogers, The Varteral, the Rock Wraith.

grand conflicts
All the Blights. The Exhalted Marches against the Elves and the Qunari, The World Spanning war between Mage and Templar that DA2 started.

sexual deviance. 
There are various many ways for your character to get their respective freak on.

Ok, I couldn't think of any good exampls of Mysogony.
Geez you were totally right.

[DanteCousland]

inequality and sexual deviance doesn't make something gritty and dark. You see alot of those undertones in fairytales...

[Adanu]

Avissel, these people are simply going to pick apart everything that isn't utterly perfect in their eyes. PC gamers have gotten so jaded that a lot of them simply cannot take a game for what it's worth and expect a masterpiece every single time.

[MacNille]

Adanu wrote...

Avissel, these people are simply going to pick apart everything that isn't utterly perfect in their eyes. PC gamers have gotten so jaded that a lot of them simply cannot take a game for what it's worth and expect a masterpiece every single time.

Can be true in some cases, but when it was the sequel to the best RPG from 2009, we at least exceptet a good story and some more stuff to do. When a game take away stuff you can do (Like to dualwide weapons when you are a warrior, talk to your party evreywhere when you are not in combat and not be able to choose the armor for your team) That is a bad sign. Bioware, I still have faith in you, that this will only be the weak moment in the serie. Also when you are making DA 3, at least give it two years.

[JakePT]

David Gaider wrote...

That depends on whether it's ever explained at all.

If it is, and I just don't like the explanation. then I rant for a while about stupid author perogative and how the story in my head was so much better... and when I calm down, I go back to reading. Or I don't. It's not a science.

It's not about the story in my head being better, it's about the story on the page not making sense. Part of this is probably that I simply don't buy that there is a decent explanation, but I'm happy to be proven wrong on that. I don't see how two completely different possibilities, a character being alive or dead, can be made to work with a single outcome, them being alive, without an incredibly far-fetched explanation.

What never happened? Who said something never happened?

As I said above, I don't see how the possible events in Origins leading to exactly the same outcome in DA2 could be explained at all while maintaining that the events still actually happened. I'm not a writer though, and I hope you have a good explanation, but I'm skeptical.

Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're talking about, here. Who said anything about a free pass? And who are these other people I told the story to? What?

When I say 'other people you have told the story to', I'm talking about other players that were 'told' a different story because of the choices they made. To them the version of the story you 'told' makes sense, to others, not so much.

And I do believe continuity in important, incidentally. That doesn't mean I'm not going to occasionally arrange events to happen the way I want them to (or need them to). If that means I don't consider some things sacred cows the way you do-- then I guess we're at an impasse. Sorry about that.

I guess I'm just surprised that you consider dead characters showing up in a sequel a sacred cow. I would have thought that kind of continuity to be pretty well uncontroversial. I'm not opposed to you manipulating the story to be closer to what you want, hell I'm not 'opposed' to anything you do, I just feel that such a huge retcon is going a bit too far.

I should also note that I didn't kill Leliana, I didn't even recruit her, so I don't have a stake in this at all (though Hawke noticing her as 'THE' Leliana was annoying, since she never even joined the Warden in the story I played). I'm just kind of frustrated that Dragon Age is stuck in this kind of netherworld where continuity between games is kept and player choices matter on the one hand, but on the other major events and decisions are just ignored and future games I'll be playing will be this weird kind of pseudo-sequel to half the events of one version of the story and half of another.

Basically it's seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You want player choices to matter and carry over, but at the same time tell a version of the story you want to tell. I don't think you can have both without causing issues like this.

Whatever way things end up going I do want to say that I do love the story of these games, whether it's the version including my choices or not, and I look forward to whatever you write next, it's only the bizarre continuity issues that the current balance between choice and the story you want to tell is causing that's frustrating me.

[22nd MadJack]

Avissel wrote...

Westeros is a world of  inequality:
The elves are forced to live as second class citizines, mages are imprisined simply for living. The Casteless are treated like scum because of something ancestors did who knows how long ago.

political intrigue:
Members of the worlds primary Religion tried to instigate a holy war against the Qunari on the grounds that people were converting. The Leader of Fereldin's army staged a coup to protect against imaginary invaders from Orlai

mythical beasts:
Dragon, Ogers, The Varteral, the Rock Wraith.

grand conflicts
All the Blights. The Exhalted Marches against the Elves and the Qunari, The World Spanning war between Mage and Templar that DA2 started.

sexual deviance. 
There are various many ways for your character to get their respective freak on.

Ok, I couldn't think of any good exampls of Mysogony.
Geez you were totally right.

You misunderstand me, I did not say that Dragon Age 2 did not contain these themes (the conclusion which you leapt to), my grievance is that they are sidelined (or ignored entirely) in favour of “bursting bodices, cartoon combat, comedy gore, and flagrant contemporaryism”.  Indeed, all themes listed are present in Origins, and more importantly they are addressed (to a varying degree), even misogyny.  Futhermore, containing these themes does not presupose they are presented in an Adult manner.

Adanu wrote...
Avissel, these people are simply going to pick apart everything that isn't utterly perfect in their eyes. PC gamers have gotten so jaded that a lot of them simply cannot take a game for what it's worth and expect a masterpiece every single time.

Of course I am going to pick it apart, it's my right as a paying customer.  How are we jaded exactly?  If we are jaded into expecting a masterpiece then this asserts we have recieved masterpieces before.  Which is bollocks.  Origins is not a masterpiece, it was however an incredible step in the right direction.  DA2 has erased what made Origins so unique.  It was all downhill when Brent Knowles left.

Modifié par 22nd MadJack, 03 avril 2011 - 03:10 .

[RyuAzai]

I think a big thing here, with retcons and decisions from Origins, is mostly the fact that it seemed what we did in Origins effected a lot less in DA II, opposed to ME1 to ME2.

I remember even some of the smallest side-quests, or larger had a significant impact of what I was doing, what people said, and who I was dealing with. In the Mass Effect series.

Though in Dragon Age II it was less so. So I think it really gives a lot of people their "jumping point" to find lots of things that didn't add up with their Origins, Awakening, and Witch hunt imports because not much as included compared to other Bioware titles.

[Bmeszaros]

This discussion was one of the few "But if" moments I had when it was announced DA2 would be a framed narrative but that you could import choices.

Importing choices gives the player the choice to import what happened in you world, but it only gives the illusion of it mattering within the framed narrative of the second game where the story and characters are already written in.

Mass Effect 2 handled it brilliantly. Importing choices from a previous experience shouldn't be just a "throw in" to appease a portion of the game fanbase that loved their romps through the forests of Ferelden, it needs to be handled better than it was. I'm sure that wasn't totally on David and the other writers, but if you are just importing for the sake of importing for "appeasement", then the change in a few dialogues isn't enough of the "Buy In" factor for me.

It certainly helps shade in the factors or demographic of who, ultimately, the targeted audience was, but at the same time, it alienates a large portion of those that enjoyed the previous installment simply because it wasn't given the time and care it probably needed.

It helps develop DA2, in my mind, as a stand alone game, but it also shows that trying to find a medium bridging things like Cost, Writing, Implementation and Replayability, when saddling it with the "Dragon Age" name, is difficult to say the least.

Modifié par Bmeszaros, 03 avril 2011 - 03:45 .

[Plaintiff]

Considering the myriad of ways the plot of Origins can potentially pan out, I can't really fault the writers or anyone else if some minor things slipped through the gaps. The risk of granting absolute freedom in a game is that it won't work out perfectly in the long term. It's not reasonable to expect them to code and write for every single possible eventuality. For the sake of the overall story, some details are going to fall to the wayside, it's just the way of things.

[Lord_Valandil]

David Gaider wrote...
As I said before, not every choice you make will have the result you think it will. This doesn't mean everyone's leaping back to life at random, and with regards to Leliana we haven't explained what's up-- and won't anytime soon. An explanation won't matter in terms of it being an effective ret-con, sure, but we've no intention of simply changing what happened. What happened, happened... and I'll leave it at that.

You know, Mr. Gaider.
I truly admire you, I love the plot of Origins and I have read The Stolen Throne (and just bought The Calling), Dragon Age is a beautiful oasis of inspiration for me, as I want to be a writer.
But I don't understand this answer, "We won't explain it anytime soon", it sounds like "We'll never explain what happened so get over it". If you didn't mean to say that, then I apologize.
While I didn't like DA2, neither as a story or as a game, what disappointed me the most was the lack of importance of our choices in DA: Origins. Hell, even the Dalish continue to be nomads, and my Dalish Warden asked for lands at the end of the first game.

Perhaps a canon wouldn't be such of a terrible thing, since our choices barely affect the game at all, and DA2 doesn't offer many choices anyway.

Just in case, I'm not expecting you to apologize, at all. I hope you don't misunderstand what I'm trying to say.
I'm looking forward to the future.

Cheers.

[DanteCousland]

They haven't come up with anything plausible yet and I doubt they will, theyv'e dug themselves a deep hole. Luckily I didn't kill her (defiled the ashes, she wasnt there but succesfully lied at camp) so my playthrough should be canon but why oh why is Zevran in my game I slit his throat yo.

The fact of the matter is I think the writers know they messed up, they don't have to acknowledge it publicly but they know they did deep down. It's your story and Im going to keep on playing dragon age games but when something stupid like this happens well it just kills immersion for me and to me thats the worst thing a story could do.

Modifié par DanteCousland, 03 avril 2011 - 03:56 .

[sheppard7]

DanteCousland wrote...

They haven't come up with anything plausible yet and I doubt they will, theyv'e dug themselves a deep hole. Luckily I didn't kill her (defiled the ashes, she wasnt there but succesfully lied at camp) so my playthrough should be canon but why oh why is Zevran in my game I slit his throat yo.

He got better?

People don't die in BW games. So now we can get Wrex, Ash, and Kaiden all back in ME3. They are just preparing us for that.

Edit: I imported my first DAO playthrough that I didn't even know about Lelianna so didn't pick her up but yet she was referred to as helping the Hero of Fereldan against the archdemon. I can accept that she could have escaped the blight without my getting her but to be said to help when she wasn't there?

Modifié par sheppard7, 03 avril 2011 - 04:00 .

[DanteCousland]

Its a bug I think. They couldv'e added him in and given him one of those cool Martin throat scars though, I mean thats kind of plausible given you can only kill him by slitting his throat (not a surefire way to kill someone compared to chopping off their head). Its a bug though, Ive both killed leliana and "saved" her luckily my main playthrough, my canon so to speak has her in it.

[TheSeventhJedi]

Well, I just finished it, and it pains me to say, this game is BioWare's weakest hour as far as storytelling. I'm not even sure what the story was. There wasn't one connected narrative, it was just, "you're a cool dude who gets involved in a few big events." On top of that, there were so many sidequests - that you have to do within a set time frame or they'll disappear, not to mention that those sidequests all involve running around willy nilly which makes you do a piece of three or four quests at a time. I'd often get to a dramatic moment in a side quest, (and since I have three kids and two jobs I can't exactly play for hours on end,) and not even know what was going on because I had done the earlier part days ago. Forget plotholes - I would've loved it if the story was cohesive enough for that. As far as I'm concerned, there was more hole than plot.