77 réponses à ce sujet

[Malanek]

Autoclave wrote...

I am amazed you ppl cannot accept that Citadel has been built by Reapers. Why the hell would it have its hidden Mass Relay to facilitate their instant arrival at the core of galactic community?

It is a Reaper station.

It's because there is no proof. It may well have been. But then again it may not have been.

[Devbo22]

 It seems that not everything a reaper touches becomes an indoctrination device, note the mass relays, citadel(regardless of whether or not the reapers built it), IFF, etc.  On the other hand certain Reaper devices do indoctrinate: reapers themselves, object rho...  It's possible that all "large scale" indoctrination comes from some device on each of the reapers or something created to specifically indoctrinate.  If it get's taken off the Reaper, it still functions to indoctrinate.  That would leave "small scale" indoctrination, which would occur when someone gets implanted or impaled on certain types of reaper tech...

[expanding panic]

Malanek999 wrote...

Autoclave wrote...

I am amazed you ppl cannot accept that Citadel has been built by Reapers. Why the hell would it have its hidden Mass Relay to facilitate their instant arrival at the core of galactic community?

It is a Reaper station.

It's because there is no proof. It may well have been. But then again it may not have been.

Malanek is 100% right. For all you know the citadel was not built by the reapers. Your theory could be right but the the citadel could have been remade to serve the reapers. You don't know. Your going off of what one guy says who is you enemy and is most likely lying.

[88mphSlayer]

if it indoctrinated everybody then it wouldn't have become the center of galactic civilization

not unless there's an "on-off" switch, which would basically negate the entire trilogy

[Naltair]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If there is one, I agree with Cheeze: designed to be too small to be noticed by anyone observing the ones living there. Very, very subtle.

If there is one at all.  Honestly, the only reason I started thinking that at all was because I couldn't believe how blindly everyone just accepted the Citadel/mass relays and was disgusted by the lack of interest in studying the very devices that were vital to galactic civilization.  Also, the Citadel is designed to be a giant trap for organics, so why not?

Won't be surprised if I'm wrong though.  Or if I'm right, for that matter.

As disgusting as it may be I see it as plausible if the technology is just so far beyond your current understanding that you may be better off investing money and resources in other areas that give more immediate returns.  Or it may not turn up results that are usable and only exist to fulfill academic exploration without much real world application. 

For an example of this see the United States Space Program.

[Lee337]

That turian councillor is definately indoctinated!

[eternalnightmare13]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

I am willing to bet that the Citadel has a very subtle indoctrination effect, one that does not degrade mental functioning because it is so small, but works to the Reapers' advantage.

It goes something like this: Use our technology. Do not study it. Accept things as they are. Feel safe. Make this place the seat of your empires.

Exactly! Plus, I think it would possibly subdue any suspcions/beliefs in ''Reapers'' in people - ie The Council - that lived on the Citadel.

[LGTX]

Lee337 wrote...

That turian councillor is definately indoctinated!

I was about to use the "the turian Councilor wants to have a word with you" line on this one. Ninja'd

In all seriousness though, the Citadel is older than Chuck Norris' reputation, it had to endure tens of thousands of years waiting for renewed civilizations to find it, and was basically made for the sole purpose to have oblivious spacefaring insects turn it into their central social/economical centre and sponge its databanks with all of their precious secrets. The Reapers simply didn't need to bother turning it into a supersized Object Rho.

And besides, indoctrination is sort of directly linked with certain Reapers who conduct the process, right? Why would these Reapers sacrifice their precious hibernation cycles just to keep watch over some puny organics?

[ProdigalMaster]

It was my assumption that the Citadel does indeed indoctrinate in some manner, the moment the concept of indoctrination was introduced in the game. Why? Because the plot seems to support that. It fits all too well to be disregarded, and would explain certain tendencies of the Citadel Council to boot.

Imagine the Galactic Society being introduced to certain subtle guidelines and desirable behavior patterns not for months, or years; but for centuries, if not thousands of years. Would one really be surprised that at the time MEs plot takes place it is generally accepted that the protheans created the relays, period. That the relays are best left alone? Or how about their stereotype of indestructibility? The fact that Citadel Station becomes the seat of galactic government, and the hub of the galaxy, likely housing some representatives of every race that managed to discover it. The list just goes on an on, and at one point we're even informed that initially there were serious attempts to figure out the keepers, but that "in time" people gave up, and it eventually was forbidden by law just to be safe. Sure, it might all be one giant multifaceted coincidence, but it'd be a really convenient one for the reapers, so I think not.

[Almostfaceman]

expanding panic wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Autoclave wrote...

I am amazed you ppl cannot accept that Citadel has been built by Reapers. Why the hell would it have its hidden Mass Relay to facilitate their instant arrival at the core of galactic community?

It is a Reaper station.

It's because there is no proof. It may well have been. But then again it may not have been.

Malanek is 100% right. For all you know the citadel was not built by the reapers. Your theory could be right but the the citadel could have been remade to serve the reapers. You don't know. Your going off of what one guy says who is you enemy and is most likely lying.

There is proof actually.  First, Vigil gives testimony and provides evidence (the conduit) of what they did on the Citadel.  Second, if you did the keeper scanning mission, you get an email from Chorban.  Here is the text of the scientific evidence Chorban dug up:

I hope this address still works. I promised to send you intel on the keepers if I found anything, and this is important. See, those scans you took? It turns out the keepers are bio-engineered...and based on my comparisons to some of that material from Saren's flagship Sovereign, they were engineered millions of years ago...by the same people who made Sovereign!

You may not understand how important this is, but it suggests that the Citadel wasn't really made by the Protheans! It may have been made by something far older, with the keepers as organic guardians. And what's more, based on my genetic readings, they're supposed to react to...something, some signal or something...about every 50 thousand years. You can measure genetic variances; it's a bit like comparing rings on a tree to see the drought years.

Whoever did this...well, around the last time this signal went off would be around the time the Protheans disappeared. And it's scheduled to go off sometime around now. If any old tech still works, they could have some nasty surprises waiting for us.

There's the proof.  

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 01 avril 2011 - 12:08 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I've also suggested previously that the signal that makes the keepers activate the station also makes them turn on the indoctrination effect, if there is one.

It seems that the Reapers want the majority of galactic society to have all of their faculties for most of their 50,000 year developmental cycle, for whatever reason. So flipping a switch just before the invasion seems like the smart way to work it.

[himmelgeher]

Autoclave wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

You're making some assumptions here. Who says the Reapers built the citadel? Who says the Citadel isn't capable of indoctrination? Who says everything the reapers ever built is an indoctrination device?

1. Sovereign clearly states that Reapers built Citadel. 
2. It it was capable, it would be used to convince it's ppl to open the relay manually for the Reapers. 
3. Because every occurence of repears or their technology in game ends up in somebody getting indoctrinated. 

1. Sovereign never directly states that the Reapers built the Citadel and the Mass Relays, only that they're the "legacy of [his] kind". That could just as easily mean that the Nazara built the Citadel and the Relays before converting themselves to Reapers (my personal theory on the origin of the Reapers anyway).
2. Yes, but Indocrination always results in diminished mental capacity. There would be no point to letting civilization reach the point of harvisting if you're just going to instantly reduce them to blithering idiots right away.
3. Every occurence that we've seen. There's nothing to suggest that this is universal with Reaper tech. Every instance of RT we've encountered has been an indoctrination device that was left behind. The Citadel suggests that they're perfectly capable of creating other forms of technology.

[Reiella]

Almostfaceman wrote...

There is proof actually.  First, Vigil gives testimony and provides evidence (the conduit) of what they did on the Citadel.  Second, if you did the keeper scanning mission, you get an email from Chorban.  Here is the text of the scientific evidence Chorban dug up:

[ snip ]
There's the proof.  

Erm, yes, that's proof that the Keepers had been used by the Reapers to start the harvesting every 50,000 years.

[Malanek]

Almostfaceman wrote...

There is proof actually.  First, Vigil gives testimony and provides evidence (the conduit) of what they did on the Citadel.  Second, if you did the keeper scanning mission, you get an email from Chorban.  Here is the text of the scientific evidence Chorban dug up:

I hope this address still works. I promised to send you intel on the keepers if I found anything, and this is important. See, those scans you took? It turns out the keepers are bio-engineered...and based on my comparisons to some of that material from Saren's flagship Sovereign, they were engineered millions of years ago...by the same people who made Sovereign!

You may not understand how important this is, but it suggests that the Citadel wasn't really made by the Protheans! It may have been made by something far older, with the keepers as organic guardians. And what's more, based on my genetic readings, they're supposed to react to...something, some signal or something...about every 50 thousand years. You can measure genetic variances; it's a bit like comparing rings on a tree to see the drought years.

Whoever did this...well, around the last time this signal went off would be around the time the Protheans disappeared. And it's scheduled to go off sometime around now. If any old tech still works, they could have some nasty surprises waiting for us.

There's the proof.  

That's not proof the Reapers constructed the Citadel. That is evidence (assuming his analysis is correct) that the keepers share a biological resemblance to Sovereign. The rest is, somewhat rambling, conjecture.

[SmokePants]

The Citadel would not work very well as an attractive seat of government if it was making everyone aboard it slowly insane. People would notice.

[Devbo22]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

It seems that the Reapers want the majority of galactic society to have all of their faculties for most of their 50,000 year developmental cycle, for whatever reason. So flipping a switch just before the invasion seems like the smart way to work it.

Maybe when it comes to reaper baby making, indoctrination reduces a species effectiveness?  (Assuming that all reapers are created in a similar form to the human reaper)

Modifié par Devbo22, 01 avril 2011 - 02:08 .

[Whatever42]

eternalnightmare13 wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

I am willing to bet that the Citadel has a very subtle indoctrination effect, one that does not degrade mental functioning because it is so small, but works to the Reapers' advantage.

It goes something like this: Use our technology. Do not study it. Accept things as they are. Feel safe. Make this place the seat of your empires.

Exactly! Plus, I think it would possibly subdue any suspcions/beliefs in ''Reapers'' in people - ie The Council - that lived on the Citadel.

That would be flippin brilliant. It would truly be an OMFG momement in ME3.

[kaotician]

Indoctrination appears to be, in the main, much more insidious a process, working on your philosophical inclinations rather than direct 'mind control' on an individual basis. Of course, for gaming purposes, it's going to be really handy to have cannon-fodder 'zombie' types under the control of the Reapers, but I just hope that the story holds up to its' implied qualities so far, and delivers us something more intellectually satisfying than a run and gun.

[UKStory135]

Indoctrination at the Citidel, too mainstream! Insert Hipster ME Macro here.

[Jagri]

Indoctrination Message: Don't poke the Keepers...

[Almostfaceman]

Reiella wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

There is proof actually.  First, Vigil gives testimony and provides evidence (the conduit) of what they did on the Citadel.  Second, if you did the keeper scanning mission, you get an email from Chorban.  Here is the text of the scientific evidence Chorban dug up:

[ snip ]
There's the proof.  

Erm, yes, that's proof that the Keepers had been used by the Reapers to start the harvesting every 50,000 years.

Nooo, it's scientific proof that the keepers were not Prothean, and that they were bio-engineered by the same people who made Sovereign - whom we know are the Reapers.

Also, it's scientific proof that the Citadel isn't Prothean.  It's right there, in plain english.  You said there wasn't any proof.  This is proof.  Now, you can say it's possibly not enough proof - but it is proof.

Then here's more proof.  The Citadel and the relays were thought to be made by the Protheans.  According to the Cerberus Daily News for March 22:

Evidence continues to mount that the system of mass relays attributed to the Protheans predate their civilization. Dr. Aurana T'Meles of the University of Serrice, a one-time skeptic of the claim, now says she's a convert. "This team has been meticulous in dating relays from many locations," she says in her findings. "It is not their responsibility to hypothesize who created the relays, only to isolate the eras of their construction." Such hypotheses abound and usually feature disappeared species like the arthenn or zeioph. Nearly all have been ruled out since they did not coexist with the oldest of the relays. Dr. Amanda Kenson, team lead for the initial discovery, could not be reached for comment at broadcast time.
So now we have two scientific studies that further strengthen the argument that the Citadel is not made by the Protheans.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 01 avril 2011 - 02:42 .

[kaotician]

Could the similarities between Keeper DNA and Sovereign's indicate that Sovereign is the uplifted version of the original Keeper species, do you think?

[cast2007]

Given the level of stupid the Council has, I'd say it's pretty darn effective.

[kaotician]

Note also that Indoctrination doesn't work on everybody. We know, for instance, that some humans have at least limited immunity to it, and it follows that this - genetic? - difference might also apply to other species too.

[Iakus]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

I am willing to bet that the Citadel has a very subtle indoctrination effect, one that does not degrade mental functioning because it is so small, but works to the Reapers' advantage.

It goes something like this: Use our technology. Do not study it. Accept things as they are. Feel safe. Make this place the seat of your empires.

You forgot Dismiss the claims of Reapers