77 réponses à ce sujet

[HunterX6]

Malanek999 wrote...

You're making some assumptions here. Who says the Reapers built the citadel? Who says the Citadel isn't capable of indoctrination? Who says everything the reapers ever built is an indoctrination device?

this, we dont know anything yet, so i agree.

[Inutaisho7996]

Mavkiel wrote...

Autoclave wrote...

1. Sovereign clearly states that Reapers built Citadel. 
2. It it was capable, it would be used to convince it's ppl to open the relay manually for the Reapers. 
3. Because every occurence of repears or their technology in game ends up in somebody getting indoctrinated. 

*cough* Every mass relay would prove point three wrong.

Sovereign says that by using the mass relays all intelligent life grows along the path the reapers desire. They may not be indoctinating people directly, but they still allow the reapers to control us by proxy.

[Reiella]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Reiella wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

There is proof actually.  First, Vigil gives testimony and provides evidence (the conduit) of what they did on the Citadel.  Second, if you did the keeper scanning mission, you get an email from Chorban.  Here is the text of the scientific evidence Chorban dug up:

[ snip ]
There's the proof.  

Erm, yes, that's proof that the Keepers had been used by the Reapers to start the harvesting every 50,000 years.

Nooo, it's scientific proof that the keepers were not Prothean, and that they were bio-engineered by the same people who made Sovereign - whom we know are the Reapers.

Also, it's scientific proof that the Citadel isn't Prothean.  It's right there, in plain english.  You said there wasn't any proof.  This is proof.  Now, you can say it's possibly not enough proof - but it is proof.

Then here's more proof.  The Citadel and the relays were thought to be made by the Protheans.  According to the Cerberus Daily News for March 22:

Evidence continues to mount that the system of mass relays attributed to the Protheans predate their civilization. Dr. Aurana T'Meles of the University of Serrice, a one-time skeptic of the claim, now says she's a convert. "This team has been meticulous in dating relays from many locations," she says in her findings. "It is not their responsibility to hypothesize who created the relays, only to isolate the eras of their construction." Such hypotheses abound and usually feature disappeared species like the arthenn or zeioph. Nearly all have been ruled out since they did not coexist with the oldest of the relays. Dr. Amanda Kenson, team lead for the initial discovery, could not be reached for comment at broadcast time.
So now we have two scientific studies that further strengthen the argument that the Citadel is not made by the Protheans.

Your supporting evidence only supports the idea that the Protheans [as in the specific race] did not build the Citadel and Relay network.  It does not determine if the Reapers built it themselves, or if there was another precursor species who had.

[Sajuro]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

I am willing to bet that the Citadel has a very subtle indoctrination effect, one that does not degrade mental functioning because it is so small, but works to the Reapers' advantage.

It goes something like this: Use our technology. Do not study it. Accept things as they are. Feel safe. Make this place the seat of your empires.

I do not think they need to use indoctrination for that stuff, since the keepers maintain the citadel so the races aren't compelled to learn more about it, it is in the center of the relay network which means that it will become the center of commerce, and it is high tech so people will use it.

[AdmiralCheez]

Sajuro wrote...

I do not think they need to use indoctrination for that stuff, since the keepers maintain the citadel so the races aren't compelled to learn more about it, it is in the center of the relay network which means that it will become the center of commerce, and it is high tech so people will use it.

Yes, but what bothers me is how much everyone takes it for granted.  There are enough reasons given in-game, sure, but they seem, I don't know, minimal?

Just a theory that probably isn't true so I can play the game without going, "Really?  That's it?"

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 01 avril 2011 - 02:25 .

[lovgreno]

It might be. Those reapers are sneaky like that. And everything else built by reapers and collectors has been booby trapped with indoctrination. But that has usualy been more of a defense mechanism. I thinks its more likely that the reapers didn't want to raise any suspicions among their crops, especialy as a indoctrination trap not realy needed in this case. Yeah, I know, this is just vague speculations.

[Sajuro]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

I do not think they need to use indoctrination for that stuff, since the keepers maintain the citadel so the races aren't compelled to learn more about it, it is in the center of the relay network which means that it will become the center of commerce, and it is high tech so people will use it.

Yes, but what bothers me is how much everyone takes it for granted.  There are enough reasons given in-game, sure, but they seem, I don't know, minimal?

Just a theory that probably isn't true so I can play the game without going, "Really?  That's it?"

I think it would be more laziness on the parts of the species since if it was indoctrination then Asari who didn't live on the citadel would of proposed trying to find out how it ticked, The two scientists in ME are scanning the keepers to find out more about them, and they presumably live on the Citadel due to their jobs but are still curious. The Reapers provided us with everything we need so we don't percieve the need to build any more relays or find out how the citadel works (something along the lines of 'Don't re-invent the wheel')

[AdmiralCheez]

Sajuro wrote...

I think it would be more laziness on the parts of the species since if it was indoctrination then Asari who didn't live on the citadel would of proposed trying to find out how it ticked, The two scientists in ME are scanning the keepers to find out more about them, and they presumably live on the Citadel due to their jobs but are still curious. The Reapers provided us with everything we need so we don't percieve the need to build any more relays or find out how the citadel works (something along the lines of 'Don't re-invent the wheel')

Maybe.  And that's fine.  But still, how can you stumble across technology like that without wondering, "how the f*ck did they do that?"

[Sajuro]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

I think it would be more laziness on the parts of the species since if it was indoctrination then Asari who didn't live on the citadel would of proposed trying to find out how it ticked, The two scientists in ME are scanning the keepers to find out more about them, and they presumably live on the Citadel due to their jobs but are still curious. The Reapers provided us with everything we need so we don't percieve the need to build any more relays or find out how the citadel works (something along the lines of 'Don't re-invent the wheel')

Maybe.  And that's fine.  But still, how can you stumble across technology like that without wondering, "how the f*ck did they do that?"

they probably did, then they were like "Hey, we don't have to keep up this place, ooooh yeah :police:"

[AdmiralCheez]

Sajuro wrote...
they probably did, then they were like "Hey, we don't have to keep up this place, ooooh yeah :police:"

Ah, too true.

"Bread goes in, toast comes out.  I have no idea how it works, but this stuff is delicious."

[Ice Cold J]

Autoclave wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

You're making some assumptions here. Who says the Reapers built the citadel? Who says the Citadel isn't capable of indoctrination? Who says everything the reapers ever built is an indoctrination device?

1. Sovereign clearly states that Reapers built Citadel. 
2. It it was capable, it would be used to convince it's ppl to open the relay manually for the Reapers. 
3. Because every occurence of repears or their technology in game ends up in somebody getting indoctrinated. 

1. Sovereign also claims to be invincible. He's obviously wrong.
2. That's what the Keepers were for and the Protheans ruined that for the Reapers.
3. I agree with the person who said Mass Relays don't indoctrinate people.

The Reapers are very arrogant, assuming that no one will ever figure out what they're up to. Perhaps this is why they try to harvest organic life at their "peak." Before they evolve further and are able to figure out what the Reapers are and what they are up to. This is the first time the cycle has been delayed (thanks to the Protheans), so we've advanced further than The Reapers anticipated/wanted. We might now have a chance of defeating them. This has never happened before. They've simply swooped in and overwhelmed all opposition. The grew egotistical and this might prove to be their one, final downfall.

[expanding panic]

[quote]Almostfaceman wrote...


Evidence continues to mount that the system of mass relays attributed to the Protheans predate their civilization. Dr. Aurana T'Meles of the University of Serrice, a one-time skeptic of the claim, now says she's a convert. "This team has been meticulous in dating relays from many locations," she says in her findings. "It is not their responsibility to hypothesize who created the relays, only to isolate the eras of their construction." Such hypotheses abound and usually feature disappeared species like the arthenn or zeioph. Nearly all have been ruled out since they did not coexist with the oldest of the relays. Dr. Amanda Kenson, team lead for the initial discovery, could not be reached for comment at broadcast time.
So now we have two scientific studies that further strengthen the argument that the Citadel is not made by the Protheans.
[/quote/]



I think you mis understood what was written In all of those statements there is NO proof that THE REAPERS CREATED THE CITADEL. All that it proves is that the Keepers were modified like the Protheans were and no reside on that ship. That whoever the Keepers were are the ones that build Saren. 

All that says is that Saren was built by keeper dna (Im thinking like the humans were, which was forced) and the keepers are on the ship. Nothing there says the reapers build the ship. Hope I clarified. 

Modifié par expanding panic, 01 avril 2011 - 10:48 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

The Citadel's role is only to funnel galactic civilization into a convenient, conquerable package while directing them down a specific path of technological development.

Indoctrination tends to result in mindless husks and zombie-like zealots, which kind of kills the point.

[expanding panic]

Evidence continues to mount that the system of mass relays attributed to the Protheans predate their civilization. Dr. Aurana T'Meles of the University of Serrice, a one-time skeptic of the claim, now says she's a convert. "This team has been meticulous in dating relays from many locations," she says in her findings. "It is not their responsibility to hypothesize who created the relays, only to isolate the eras of their construction." Such hypotheses abound and usually feature disappeared species like the arthenn or zeioph. Nearly all have been ruled out since they did not coexist with the oldest of the relays. Dr. Amanda Kenson, team lead for the initial discovery, could not be reached for comment at broadcast time.
So now we have two scientific studies that further strengthen the argument that the Citadel is not made by the Protheans.





I think you mis understood what was written In all of those statements there is NO proof that THE REAPERS CREATED THE CITADEL. All that it proves is that the Keepers were modified like the Protheans were and no reside on that ship. That whoever the Keepers were are the ones that build Saren. 

All that says is that Saren was built by keeper dna (Im thinking like the humans were, which was forced) and the keepers are on the ship. Nothing there says the reapers build the ship. Hope I clarified. 

Modifié par expanding panic, 01 avril 2011 - 10:50 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

I hear a parrot.

[Sajuro]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Sajuro wrote...
they probably did, then they were like "Hey, we don't have to keep up this place, ooooh yeah :police:"

Ah, too true.

"Bread goes in, toast comes out.  I have no idea how it works, but this stuff is delicious."

The internet and computers, most of us don't bother with learning how exactly they work and just let it be, for all we know the internet could be indoctrinating us to believe it is a dump truck instead of a series of tubes.

[Dave666]

Almostfaceman wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

I am willing to bet that the Citadel has a very subtle indoctrination effect, one that does not degrade mental functioning because it is so small, but works to the Reapers' advantage.

It goes something like this: Use our technology. Do not study it. Accept things as they are. Feel safe. Make this place the seat of your empires.

That's plausible, I kinda like that idea.

Agreed, I like it too.  Another possibility of course is that it does have the tech but its 'switched off'. Its possible that when the reapers get near the Citadel they could turn it back on.  It could act as a failsafe in the event that things go ****** up and the 'crop' closes the arms.  Granted, if thats the case we're kinda screwed.

[Almostfaceman]

Reiella wrote...


Your supporting evidence only supports the idea that the Protheans [as in the specific race] did not build the Citadel and Relay network.  It does not determine if the Reapers built it themselves, or if there was another precursor species who had.

I think you may be forgetting this part of Chorban's letter:

It turns out the keepers are bio-engineered...and based on my comparisons to some of that material from Saren's flagship Sovereign, they were engineered millions of years ago...by the same people who made Sovereign!

Now, line this up with Sovereign telling us to our face that his kind made the Citadel and the Mass Relays.  The odds that the Reapers are not involved in Citadel construction suddenly become very very minimal.  Who made Sovereign? We see it at the Collector Base - the Reapers make themselves by combining themselves somehow with another species.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Vigil also states that the Reapers built the relay.. but I'm sure some zulu guy will show up with a banner saying Vigil was lying if i mention that.

[Legbiter]

It's a trap. They want aspiring space-faring civilizations to discover the Citadel, set up shop there and then stay dependent on the relay network to expand. Not go insane and die after a week spent there.

[Reiella]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Reiella wrote...


Your supporting evidence only supports the idea that the Protheans [as in the specific race] did not build the Citadel and Relay network.  It does not determine if the Reapers built it themselves, or if there was another precursor species who had.

I think you may be forgetting this part of Chorban's letter:

It turns out the keepers are bio-engineered...and based on my comparisons to some of that material from Saren's flagship Sovereign, they were engineered millions of years ago...by the same people who made Sovereign!

Now, line this up with Sovereign telling us to our face that his kind made the Citadel and the Mass Relays.  The odds that the Reapers are not involved in Citadel construction suddenly become very very minimal.  Who made Sovereign? We see it at the Collector Base - the Reapers make themselves by combining themselves somehow with another species.

I think you may be forgetting that Sovereign was not simply "Saren's Flagship" as Chorban [and the vast majority of the public believes], but a member of a race of sentient AI ships.

Keepers were bio-engineered, we know this.  The Reapers [or even potentially their precursors] manipulated the Keepers genetics to sustain the Citadel and also serve as the switch for Doomsday.  Chorban's research indicates, that surprise/surprise, the Keepers have similar content to the Reapers from being bio-engineered by them [or potentially their precursors].

The Reapers self-replication stands as further evidence that "Hey, look here, maybe a Reaper made Sovereign and bio-engineered the Keepers", but frankly, it's even not that necessary of an assumption.

[Almostfaceman]

Reiella wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Reiella wrote...


Your supporting evidence only supports the idea that the Protheans [as in the specific race] did not build the Citadel and Relay network.  It does not determine if the Reapers built it themselves, or if there was another precursor species who had.

I think you may be forgetting this part of Chorban's letter:

It turns out the keepers are bio-engineered...and based on my comparisons to some of that material from Saren's flagship Sovereign, they were engineered millions of years ago...by the same people who made Sovereign!

Now, line this up with Sovereign telling us to our face that his kind made the Citadel and the Mass Relays.  The odds that the Reapers are not involved in Citadel construction suddenly become very very minimal.  Who made Sovereign? We see it at the Collector Base - the Reapers make themselves by combining themselves somehow with another species.

I think you may be forgetting that Sovereign was not simply "Saren's Flagship" as Chorban [and the vast majority of the public believes], but a member of a race of sentient AI ships.

Keepers were bio-engineered, we know this.  The Reapers [or even potentially their precursors] manipulated the Keepers genetics to sustain the Citadel and also serve as the switch for Doomsday.  Chorban's research indicates, that surprise/surprise, the Keepers have similar content to the Reapers from being bio-engineered by them [or potentially their precursors].

The Reapers self-replication stands as further evidence that "Hey, look here, maybe a Reaper made Sovereign and bio-engineered the Keepers", but frankly, it's even not that necessary of an assumption.

No, you misunderstand.  I know that Sovereign is a Reaper and not merely a ship.  So that's the best part about Chorban's discovery.  When he says that the Keepers were bio-engineered by the same people who made Sovereign, he inadvertently points directly at the Reapers.  The Reapers make Reapers.  That's all my point was.

[Sajuro]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Vigil also states that the Reapers built the relay.. but I'm sure some zulu guy will show up with a banner saying Vigil was lying if i mention that.

Or Vigil was wrong, since he only knows what the scientists knew or thought.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

@ thread starter

Indoctrination cannot be permanent (side-effects happen with prolongued exposure) and if the time for "harvest" isn't right, they just alienated the aliens... pun intended

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 03 avril 2011 - 04:21 .

[Manic Sheep]

1. Well obviously not all of it indoctrinates since the citadel doesn’t and for that matter nether dose you collector particle beam (and collector tech is reaper tech) or the IFF. We don’t really know anything about how indoctrination tech works or if it can be turned on or off at will.

2.

Mavkiel wrote...

Because it'd give the game away early. Citadel was discovered hundreds of years ago. If folks started acting funny in it it'd raise questions. Also they wouldn't want that kind of tech just hanging around that place. For all they know the first people to come into contact with the place would inspect it top to bottom for booby traps.

Plus anyone who didn’t live on the citadel normally might notice the odd behaviour. Indoctrination is slow. If it was strong enough to cause the minds of the people that live to degrade it would be picked up. They want people to actualy live there and expand. Not go insane.

3. It might indoctrinate slightly and we just don’t know it, perhaps that’s why most people just accept everything without trying to figure out how things work tho long exposure to the effects of it even if iit is weak would probably still be damaging to mental health so that may not have been an option either.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 03 avril 2011 - 05:20 .