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[Nodscouter]

Both are very renegadish.
And can't Garrus be both pretty and sexy?

[lovgreno]

Alienmorph wrote...

Both returning characters, both great and both made LIs because of hudge fans' demands. Also their fangroups never had silly feuds against eachother and there's a nice mutual support between them.

Yeah, we have had some nice laughs together at Talis anti-fans right?

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

lovgreno wrote...

Alienmorph wrote...

Both returning characters, both great and both made LIs because of hudge fans' demands. Also their fangroups never had silly feuds against eachother and there's a nice mutual support between them.

Yeah, we have had some nice laughs together at Talis anti-fans right?

Speaking of which, I saw an anti-Tali sigbar the other day with 'Anti-Tali alliance, dead Tali for ME3.' And the rocket-head picture. I sighed. Then I facepalmed.

And very well then, Garrus can be pretty sexy .

[Alienmorph]

There are also "I support Tali Headshot" and "Even Brood Mother is a better squadmate than Tali" banners. That's why I made my airquoting Tali banner... everyone have the right of have his/her own opionion, but I wanted made it clear that I don't give a f**k to the "Durr... durr... Tali is dumb and you're dumber because you like her... durr... durr..." crap.

[Nodscouter]

I find it annoying that they go around sporting those damn banners, don't really care about their opinion, I just think it's very respectless to have them.
For example ,I hate Miranda with all my heart but I sure as hell don't go to their thread and troll or get a ''I hate Miranda'' banner.

[BTG_01]

This thread seems to have wandered a bit off-topic. Anyway, Garrus and Tali were my favourites in ME1 because they were presented as real people, not performances or caricatures. Of all the companions, their friendships with Shepard felt the most genuine. They were both kind of upbeat too, which I like. Basically they were the kinds of people I would hang around with real life.

If you're looking for similarities, well, they're both aliens, they both joined the Normandy to stop Saren and prove something to themselves and others, they both act as if they're seeing the wider galaxy for the first time, and as for first impressions, they both actually help you when you meet them: Garrus takes down a thug with a headshot and Tali takes out some with a grenade.

[InvaderErl]

Because they're both awesome.

[jeweledleah]

I adore Garrus, he's one of my favorites but I could care less about Tali. she was ok, I guess in ME1, still ok in ME2 and she certainly has interesting costume design, but I just never got just exactly is it so amazing about her as a character. I neither hate, nor love her - merely find her occasionally amusing and/or annoying. personal preferences, I guess.

As for the hate, I really cannot understand why people feel the need to express it as much as they do, constantly deride the character they don't enjoy, call them and people who like them - stupid, act astonished when those characters actually have fans, etc. you know, you don't have to hate one character, to prove your love for another... it can get very difficult sometimes not to hate these rabid fans and not stoop to their level.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

True, they are the ones that are most realistically portrayed. As aliens go anyway.
Their personalities are fleshed out, and they have different, interesting stories. But neither of them have a background that is fully explored, so people are left hanging in suspense, and wanting them both as squadmates in ME3.

And yes, whenever I talked to them, I felt like SHepard was talking to a close friend, as opposed to some sort of 'forced' conversation.
But this is all related to the fact that Tali and Garrus were both squaddies in ME1 and 2. I wonder if those who have just played ME2 would feel the same way?

Also, they still have very different beliefs and their personalities have different focuses.
Garrus = Justice/Revenge
Tali = Helping her people

[Kim Shepard]

I've seen those broodmother banners. o_o Personally, the broodmothers creep me out and I would much rather have a squadmate that I hate on the team rather than one of them. But whatever, personal preference. xD

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

But this is all related to the fact that Tali and Garrus were both squaddies in ME1 and 2. I wonder if those who have just played ME2 would feel the same way?

Also, they still have very different beliefs and their personalities have different focuses.
Garrus = Justice/Revenge
Tali = Helping her people

I would have liked them both if I had only played ME2. After all, I was neutral towards Tali in ME1 before she became one of my favorite squadmates in ME2. Garrus just got even more awesome for ME2, in my opinion. His recruitment mission was like something out of an action movie, and he still had the revenge quest that I like so much.

Also, I like both of their goals. Justice/Revenge wins out, but helping your people is a very noble goal. Of course, most of my favorite characters who want to help their people turn out to be well-intentioned extremists... and Tali doesn't seem that extreme, at least in comparison.

[Nodscouter]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

And yes, whenever I talked to them, I felt like SHepard was talking to a close friend, as opposed to some sort of 'forced' conversation.

And we were obviously not forced to treat them like old friends in ME2, nooo, not at all.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Hey, you don't have to talk to them if you really don't want to Nod

And I love the well intentioned extremists too, it means that they are the ones that actually want to get something done in the world, rather than well intentioned passive people who sit around and talk about their ideas over tea and crumpets.

So they are both people of action, which I like. Tali is determined to do bring back something extraordinary from her pilgramage, and Garrus is determined bring justice to criminals and the corrupt.

Another similarity between the two! And I also think they would still be my favourite squaddies even if I hadn't played ME1 first, but I am biased!

[Nodscouter]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

Hey, you don't have to talk to them if you really don't want to Nod

True, but if you do talk to them you're pretty much forced into being their friend.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Because they're the best? (my opinion)

[lovgreno]

You know that scene by the bridge in Zaeeds mission? Both Tali and Garrus looks great in that pose... A very good reason to like them both if you ask me.

[Kim Shepard]

Nodscouter wrote...

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

And yes, whenever I talked to them, I felt like SHepard was talking to a close friend, as opposed to some sort of 'forced' conversation.

And we were obviously not forced to treat them like old friends in ME2, nooo, not at all.

I can't tell if that's sarcasm or not, but we really aren't forced to treat them like old friends. The fact that we can refuse to help them with their loyalty missions is proof of that. Shepard can probably make Tali hate him/her in the course of ME2, with the option to hand in the evidence against her father at the trial and side with Legion in their conflict. I don't remember any options to be outright mean to Garrus, but he doesn't antagonize or disagree with Shepard's advice, which doesn't present the opportunity for Shepard to respond in such a way. You can easily play a Shepard who doesn't like him though.

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

And I love the well intentioned extremists too, it means that they are the ones that actually want to get something done in the world, rather than well intentioned passive people who sit around and talk about their ideas over tea and crumpets.

Maybe this is one of the reasons why I like characters like Saren so much. You can disagree with his methods (I don't), but at least he does something... unlike the Council. Garrus is similar in a way, breaking the rules because it's the only way to get something done. He reminds me of another favorite character of mine. Same type. FBI agent who doesn't care about breaking the rules if it can save someone's life.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Who is that Kim, is I may ask?
And Garrus and Tali are actually Nod's favourite characters. I think he just likes playing Devil's Advocate! Hehe.

In ME1, particularly, you can be a mean b**** to Tali. But I don't see why you would want to when it would be completely unprovoked. On the other hand, you can play as a pro-human anti-alien Shepard in ME2. So you aren't necessarily forced into being friends with either.

The council are exactly like todays democratic politicians in my opinion. Whereas people like Garrus and Tali - in their own way - will actually DO something to accomplish their aims.

And that pose during Zaeed's LM is the soul reason why they are awesome. Hehe!
As well as being generally awesome!

[Kim Shepard]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

Who is that Kim, is I may ask?

The FBI agent? Jack Malone from the TV show Without A Trace. He's a compassionate Renegade like Garrus. And he even compares himself to Batman in one episode. I think he's on TV tropes too...

And Garrus and Tali are actually Nod's favourite characters. I think he just likes playing Devil's Advocate! Hehe.

In ME1, particularly, you can be a mean b**** to Tali. But I don't see why you would want to when it would be completely unprovoked. On the other hand, you can play as a pro-human anti-alien Shepard in ME2. So you aren't necessarily forced into being friends with either.

Yeah, I just wanted to point out the obvious. xD I find it annoying when relationships between characters are forced, so I had to say that's not the case with Garrus and especially Tali. I have one Shepard who will disagree with Tali all the time, hand in the evidence and side with Legion because she believes the geth are the original victims. It'll be sad to be mean to Tali, but it helps that her lines if you go that route are brilliant.

[Nodscouter]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

And Garrus and Tali are actually Nod's favourite characters. I think he just likes playing Devil's Advocate! Hehe.

I've yet to hear the exact definition of that term, but by the sound of it, it fits me.

Kim Shepard wrote...

Nodscouter wrote...

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

And yes, whenever I talked to them, I felt like SHepard was talking to a close friend, as opposed to some sort of 'forced' conversation.

And we were obviously not forced to treat them like old friends in ME2, nooo, not at all.

I can't tell if that's sarcasm or not, but we really aren't forced to treat them like old friends. The fact that we can refuse to help them with their loyalty missions is proof of that. Shepard can probably make Tali hate him/her in the course of ME2, with the option to hand in the evidence against her father at the trial and side with Legion in their conflict. I don't remember any options to be outright mean to Garrus, but he doesn't antagonize or disagree with Shepard's advice, which doesn't present the opportunity for Shepard to respond in such a way. You can easily play a Shepard who doesn't like him though.

I am the sarcastic type (Ironically, that wasn't sarcasm).
And yes, you have a few opportunities now and then to disagree with them. But it feels like every dialogue option is a bit ''Oh boy, remember those old days when we're great buddies and together we killed everything in our way? It's great having you back on board old friend!''.
And of course you can play a Shepard who doesn't like him, but there doesn't seem to be dialogue options to match that.
Of course, I would personally never take such an option that disagreed with them, but I like having options.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Yeah, some of the lines you get when you are nasty/ go for different dialogue options are great. Unfortunately, often I can only ever watch them on youtube. I could never do the breakup scenes with Garrus or Tali. Along with Jack, they are the most horrible breakups.

And when Garrus and Tali have done everything they can for Shepard, it is even more awful. And Shepard is a jerk in those scenes as well.

[Kim Shepard]

I wouldn't play a Shepard who breaks up with Garrus or Tali. D: Too sad.

Nodscouter wrote...

I am the sarcastic type (Ironically, that wasn't sarcasm).
And yes, you have a few opportunities now and then to disagree with them. But it feels like every dialogue option is a bit ''Oh boy, remember those old days when we're great buddies and together we killed everything in our way? It's great having you back on board old friend!''.
And of course you can play a Shepard who doesn't like him, but there doesn't seem to be dialogue options to match that.
Of course, I would personally never take such an option that disagreed with them, but I like having options.

Like I said, refusing his loyalty mission is a good sign that they're not friends. It's strange that Garrus makes "just like old times" comments to a Shepard who didn't recruit him in ME1, unless he's just talking about things that he knows Shepard did. I don't think his dialogue requires them to be good buddies though. I can play Shepards who only think of him as a valued comrade. I've never tried to be mean to him, but... in the end, it wouldn't make sense for Shepard to respond with so much hate unprovoked. It is possible to play Shepards who don't care for him though, even if that just means not taking him anywhere and turning down his loyalty mission.

My point is, none of his required dialogue forces him to be friends with Shepard. In comparison, there's Liara, who Shepard can be mean to in ME1 at every chance, and then has a required hug if Shepard goes to Illium (and without the DLC squadmates to fill up the slots, going to Illium is required). Garrus has nothing that extreme to imply friendship.

[Nodscouter]

Kim Shepard wrote...

I wouldn't play a Shepard who breaks up with Garrus or Tali. D: Too sad.

Agreed.

Like I said, refusing his loyalty mission is a good sign that they're not friends.

Or that you're more focused on, you know, the whole ''save-the-galaxy/universe'' thing.

It's strange that Garrus makes "just like old times" comments to a Shepard who didn't recruit him in ME1

Agreed.

I don't think his dialogue requires them to be good buddies though.

Then it's a matter of opinion. All dialogue I remember between them seems to imply that they're good buddies.

I can play Shepards who only think of him as a valued comrade.

Yes, and I can play a Shepard who's possessed by a demon. Doesn't change the story how you RP.

I've never tried to be mean to him

Ah. So you come into the debate when you don't know the full story?

but... in the end, it wouldn't make sense for Shepard to respond with so much hate unprovoked

''Unprovoked''? I think his selfish and vengeful actions can justify responding with hate.

It is possible to play Shepards who don't care for him though, even if that just means not taking him anywhere and turning down his loyalty mission.

See above

My point is, none of his required dialogue forces him to be friends with Shepard

Not much of the game is exactly ''required'', all that's basically required is to recruit Garrus, Jack, Miranda, Jacob and Mordin and then do the 4 major missions. The game's essentialy complete after that.

In comparison, there's Liara, who Shepard can be mean to in ME1 at every chance, and then has a required hug if Shepard goes to Illium (and without the DLC squadmates to fill up the slots, going to Illium is required). Garrus has nothing that extreme to imply friendship.

Well, Liara is the extreme form of forced friendship. Garrus or Tali's dialogue isn't nearly as bad, but the problem's still there.

[Kim Shepard]

Nodscouter wrote...

Or that you're more focused on, you know, the whole ''save-the-galaxy/universe'' thing.

That's possible too. Shepard's reasons can be whatever the player wants, but that doesn't change the fact that you can play a Shepard who refused to do his loyalty mission because he/she doesn't like Garrus. It's both possible and believable. While something like hugging another character goes against the idea that they aren't friends, Garrus has no forced actions like that.

Then it's a matter of opinion. All dialogue I remember between them seems to imply that they're good buddies.

The fact is, those are dialogues you don't have to choose. The only time you have to interact with Garrus is on his recruitment mission. Shepard doesn't have to give him the warm welcome. There are two options, and the other is something to the effect of , "Garrus? What are you doing here?" The rest is mission-focused dialogue.

Yes, and I can play a Shepard who's possessed by a demon. Doesn't change the story how you RP.

And I can play a Shepard with split personalities because of the many Paragon and Renegade options. And a Shepard who loves Saren because there are options to tell Anderson that Saren had the right idea at the refinery, tell Garrus not to kill him, agree with Liara that you feel sorry for him, and Paragon Persuade him - the fact that it's never said outright doesn't matter, because there's nothing to contradict it. There's nothing to contradict the fact that some Shepards aren't friends with Garrus.

Ah. So you come into the debate when you don't know the full story?

That's like saying I don't know what happens in the Paragon path of Garrus' missions because I've never played them myself. I watched it on youtube.

''Unprovoked''? I think his selfish and vengeful actions can justify responding with hate.

"Unprovoked" as in, he never antagonizes Shepard the way some other characters do. Even if Garrus disagrees with Shepard's ideas at first, he follows Shepard's advice in the end. At that point, what is there to argue?

Not much of the game is exactly ''required'', all that's basically required is to recruit Garrus, Jack, Miranda, Jacob and Mordin and then do the 4 major missions. The game's essentialy complete after that.

...And that's the point. There is no required friend dialogue with Garrus in the one mission where you need to interact with him.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

If there are people who are actually annoyed about the 'forced friendship' side of things in terms of Garrus and Tali. Then seriously, imagine how those who aren't the biggest fans of Liara felt when doing LotSB. Uncontrollable friendly banter/hugs/deep intimate conversations. At least Garrus doesn't have any of that. It's more of a joke-y kind of atmosphere.

Besides, I would always like to have a deadly, badass, ex-cop turian sniper as my best bud! Hehe.