Klidi wrote...
Well isn't that funny:
greengoron89 wrote...Give some serious thought to the subject, and you'll see that preserving the Anvil is really for the best
I did give it some serious thinking and I came to the opposite conclusion.
I apologize if that offended you. I didn't mean that as an insult.
Klidi wrote...
Exactly which 'other Deep Road expeditions' are you talking about?
Branka went to find the Anvil without proper research and without proper resources. That doesn't strike as sensible for me.
Any time a unit of dwarves heads out to survey a lost thaig, recover treasure and artifacts, lead a military campaign, search for and mine lyrium ore, etc. they are more or less taking a shot in the dark. The Memories are far from complete, and much of the history of the dwarves was lost to the darkspawn centuries ago. The only thing the dwarves can be absolutely sure of when traveling into the Deep Roads is that there
will be darkspawn, and they
will try to kill and/or capture any dwarves they come across.
So the dangers that Branka and her House faced were no different from the dangers anyone else faces when venturing into the Deep Roads. As I said, that's just the nature of the beast - but preserving the Anvil and allowing for the creation of new golems can help minimize these risks significantly.
Klidi wrote...
For you and Branka, perhaps. Not everyone has to think that way. And as they progressed and suffered losses, the fear and despair increased. They had two options - to follow Branka or to attempt the return. Both choices were equally bad and lead to their death. They made their choice, and it appears to be bad, but who can say that they would survive with Branka? I personally highly doubt it, as it is clear that for her, they were just meat shields.
What other choice did Branka have? She couldn't just pull test dummies out of a magic hat to send into Caridin's gauntlet. As I said, she had to make do with what she had - and that meant sending her own House to run Caridin's gauntlet, and eventually using the darkspawn themselves to engage the traps (which was a huge risk on her part). There were no other viable alternatives under those circumstances - Branka knew this, and for better or worse, she carried on with what few resources she still had.
Hespith and the others, however, obviously were not willing to do as Branka commanded. Their fear is perfectly understandable, but their options at that point were limited - and either option guaranteed almost certain death. It's a matter of picking your poison, I suppose - but I'd personally rather take my chances in Caridin's gauntlet than risk being captured and forced to become a Broodmother (or be ripped apart and eaten by my own kin, since I'm a male).
Of course, what I would've done in that situation matters very little. Hespith obviously thought running off into the Dead Trenches was the better option. I suppose she knew the kind of fate she was tempting by doing such - and that's exactly the fate she and the others met.
Klidi wrote...
Is that so? One has to wonder, then, how is it possible that in the past, when the dwarves had the golems, is still wasn't enough.
Also it is clear that there were not that many volunteers and people had to be forced. From what Caridin says it seems most of the later golems were forced.
Wasn't it enough? The dwarves were caught off guard when the darkspawn began their first invasions of the Deep Roads. You can't mount a proper defense in such an expansive territory as the Deep Roads in time to counter a massive offensive like the darkspawn undoubtedly had - and their invasion could only ever grow larger and more ferocious as captured dwarven women were converted into Broodmothers en masse, fueling the growth of the darkspawn armies faster than the dwarves could ever hope keep up with. They were overwhelmed by sheer numbers, and even the golems couldn't change that (in fact, it may have been for this very reason that so many were
forced to become golems).
And yet after the fall of the dwarven empire, the golems kept Orzammar safe from the darkspawn for a very long time. It prospered in the years it had golems to bolster its defenses - but it was in the years when the golems were no more that Orzammar began circling the drain. And that's certainly something to consider before destroying the Anvil forever.
Klidi wrote...O
f course, the Architect must be eliminated - but that's beyond my point. My point was that any powerful enemy - and we don't know what else is in the Deep Roads, it is also quite possible the Architect was not the only one of its kind - could get hold of the control rods, and use the golems in a way they want.
It doesn't even have to be darkspawn - neighbouring countries, or other groups of people hungry for power would always try to take the control over such powerful weapon.
It would cause a lot of problems and wars, and even with golems, dwarves are not strong enough to resist for a long time.
No one even knew that the Architiect existed at all except for Duncan and a few others - much less that there could be more out there like him (and there are - Corypheus is not only completely sentient, but a former Tevinter magister on top of that). And even if Duncan had spread the word about it, it doesn't mean anyone would listen. A talking, sentient darkspawn would sound like quite the stretch to most people - especially to the dwarves.
As for the possiblity of future wars - that's hardly an issue at the point in time we're discussing. There will
always be war - but Orzammar will only ever be preoccupied with the darkspawn for as long as they continue to be a threat, and they will continue to be a threat for a very long time to come. No future battles with other dwarves or surfacers can ever compare to the threat posed by the darkspawn - who would see not only the dwarves, but the whole of Thedas destroyed. No other sentient races hope to achieve such a goal - only the darkspawn wish to do this.
And that is why they must be defeated
at all costs.
Klidi wrote...
Branka doesn't care for fame or riches, but she doesn't really care for Orzammar or dwarves, either. Branka wants to return the old glory to the dwarven kingdom, but purely by force - which is proof that she's not sensible, but rather foolish and naive idealist, with no real respect for lives of her kin.
The exact same thing could be said of Bhelen - but would you deny that he is the better candidate for Orzammar's throne? The city is a corrupt aristocracy run by egomaniacs and sycophants who are out solely for themselves (and who
truly have no respect for their kin). Its rigid caste system is oppressive and crippling, and its isolationist foreign policies are suffocating the city. Orzammar is, for all intents and purposes, committing a slow and painful suicide.
There is no way that this can be corrected legally or fairly. The only way to put an end to this charade is by force - something Bhelen is perfectly willing to do. Putting Branka in charge of the Anvil results in a similar outcome - the Anvil
will be used to create golems, and those golems
will be used to crush the darkspawn and ensure the security of Orzammar (unless you're stupid enough to put Harrowmont on the throne, that is). And if anyone tries to change that, Branka will make sure that the Anvil is kept out of the hands of those who would misuse it (see Bhelen + Anvil epilogue).
This makes her the
perfect candidate for using the Anvil, even more so than Caridin himself. Therefore, I'd trust the Anvil to
no one else other than Branka, and would actually be more inclined to destroy it if Branka were
not the one to be in charge of it if preserved.
Klidi wrote...
As I said, dwarves already had the unit of golems in the
past. Sure, they brought incredible victories against the darkspawn. But
why, then, it was necessary to force casteless and criminals (and
political oponents) to become golems? Well, clearly because their number
was not sufficient any more. Many were sold to Tevinter, and many were
destroyed in the battle.
Golems are strong, but not
indestructible. When Cardin went missing, whole legion - 126 golems -
went looking for him into the Deep Roads and none has returned.
And
bear in mind that this was in the time of the first Blight, when
dwarves still had more thaigs than just Orzammar, and also that it was
raging for decades, threatening to destroy the dwarven civilisation
completely, so there were many volunteers. And still it wasn't enough.
Now?
Many dwarves are content the way they are - otherwise Harrowmont
wouldn't have any supporters. They got used to the danger, and it
doesn't seem so imminent. Also, their population is much smaller than it
was before. In other words, there wouldn't be enough volunteers.
As I said, the dwarves were caught off guard when the First Blight began. They knew very little about the darkspawn at that point - least of all how many there were, how they multiply their numbers, etc. It would have been difficult to mount an effective defense in a place like the Deep Roads - which were not only vast in size and range, but rather claustrophobic on top of that. Thaigs could have easily been flanked and overrun by darkspawn forces under those circumstances.
Now that the dwarves are intimately familiar with the darkspawn threat, they are in a better position to use golems effectively and cut a swath right through the darkspawn lines. There are also many new allies the dwarves can call upon, like the Grey Wardens and (in the time of the Fifth Blight at least) surfacers. A unified front of dwarves, golems, and surfacers would crush the darkspawn utterly (who are already weakened by the death of Urthemiel, I might add, and will continue to be until the next Old God is found).
And no, Harrowmont and the other nobles are all short-sighted fools. They can't see that their city is circling the drain because they're too full of themselves to realize or even care. People like Branka and Bhelen, on the other hand, see the grim fate Orzammar is headed towards - and will stop at nothing to change that. These are the only two people that can be relied on to bring much needed change to a dying kingdom - and refusing them positions of power can only make things much worse in the long run.
...
...phew, that took a while to compose. This is a very complicated subject, indeed - only Dragon Age can inspire such complex and intriguing discussions as this. But it's also a bit exhausting, so I think I'm gonna go get a cold drink and play Plants vs. Zombies for a while.
Modifié par greengoron89, 16 septembre 2011 - 06:41 .
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