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[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Filament wrote...
And why Marethari didn't tell her about the demon's supposed plan to come through the mirror to possess Merrill BEFORE taking the demon into herself.

Good question...

Probably because that wouldn't stop Merrill.

That's a terrible reason

And it's probably true. Merrill probably still wouldn't listen.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 01 avril 2011 - 07:36 .

[jlb524]

Bayz wrote...
1)And a device used apparently mainly for communication will actually help the elven condition in...faster Skype?

2)More than her own clan as in the people who raised her apparently...

It's principle. Why do humans waste time digging for trinkets made by ancient humans?

My point with 'the elven condiiton' wasn't that it may benefit elves in a tangible way, it was that, as an elf, she has a harder time accomplishing things as they have less resources...so I understand if they tend to take larger risks than a human would.

[cglasgow]

Remember, the eluvian were such powerful and treasured artifacts that ancient Arlathan, the civilization that made the Old Tevinter Imperium step back and go 'Damn that's some impressive magic yo', still only needed to have one per city.

It ain't just a cell phone she's fixing there.

[LobselVith8]

Kartikeya wrote...

So I like how, in scrolling back through responses this morning, there are folks going 'Merrill is to blame for nothing!' (in those exact words in a few cases) Then someone says, 'I find this thing where Merrill bears no responsibility or fault or flaw whatsoever to be weird'. And everyone goes, 'Oh, no one is saying Merrill is flawless!'

The issue is you're purposefully conflating the fact that people are specifically addressing either blood magic or the crafted Eluvian, and you're making an inaccurate generalization that simply because people disagree with you on those issues, they must be claiming that Merrill is perfect.

Kartikeya wrote...

...And then they proceed to spend three pages talking about how she's flawless.

Incorrect. They spend three pages addressing either blood magic or her goal to restore the Eluvian to help her people.

Kartikeya wrote...

Really okay, if you're not saying she's flawless, or that she doesn't make mistakes, then please explain what flaws you believe she has or what mistakes you think she's made?

The OP is the claim that Merrill is "Heartless," so you shouldn't be surprised that some people strongly disagree with such an assessment and spent their time addressing the OP rather than the various facets of Merrill's personality and flaws.

Kartikeya wrote...

RE: Blood magic.

Blood magic has its own spells, but was originally simply an alternative to using lyrium. Lyrium is rare and expensive. Blood is everywhere and slaves were cheap. Casting powerful spells uses them both up. This is why Isolde dies in Jowan's ritual if you go that route, and why the only alternative is lots of mages and lots of lyrium. Presumably if you're only using your own blood to fuel your magic, you run the risk of dying the same way that you run the risk of killing other people if you're using theirs. We've all at least agreed that Merrill wants to take all the consequences herself, right? That if anyone's going to die for this, it will be her. Are you really going to say if the only way to fix the Eluvian was to bleed herself dry in front of it, she wouldn't do it? Of course she would. She spends the entire game repeating that this is what she's willing to sacrifice.

I don't recall anyone claiming that Merrill wouldn't sacrifice her life to restore the Eluvian. That's why she brings Hawke along when she goes to speak with Audacity, after all.

Kartikeya wrote...

I'm not sure why people are arguing that killing yourself with blood magic in game mechanics is just a game mechanic thing when the very basic idea of blood magic supports that 'someone's going to have to make a sacrifice here, and if you do enough that's going to be fatal for them or you or both'.

I believe people are arguing that blood mages tend to be informed enough to know how much blood they can use, and when they've reached their limit. That's why blood magic isn't an automatic death sentence for blood mages.

Kartikeya wrote...

As far as why Marethari didn't telll Merrill about the demon's plans before stepping in? Hasn't Merrill been saying nonstop all game, again, that she is willing to die to fix the Eluvian? Marethari would rather die than watch Merrill die.

There's a difference between standing for what you believe, and being informed that the Eluvian would be a gateway for the demon to enter the real world. However, how would Audacity know how to built such a device? Is Marethari's assessment of the situation accurate, or is this a theory of hers that lead to her becoming an abomination? We have no way of knowing the truth behind the situation.

[Bayz]

Matterialize wrote...

Bayz wrote...

I do not, I think her major flaw was not giving a **** about her clan in order to pursue some goals which aren't clearly going to give any results

But her clan (and the Dalish as a whole) are the whole reason she's doing it at all. She's trying to recover the history of her people, and "it's a Keeper's job to remember".

And what makes you think it's a fruitless endeavor?

That no bananas came from it (not apparent use of the restored Eluvian) and her clan died in the meantime. I don't believe she eats babies for breakfast, and I see her point, still she seemed to be too self centered in what she thinks she must do with her clan or without it. And that she is to blame for her clans death mainly.

Does it means she is a monster? nopez, you can be a mass murderer without realizing it really...she just didn't measured the consecuences of her acts and happened what had to happen. She express regret after that if my memory doesn't fail.

[sphinxess]

Matterialize wrote...

Bayz wrote...

I do not, I think her major flaw was not giving a **** about her clan in order to pursue some goals which aren't clearly going to give any results

But her clan (and the Dalish as a whole) are the whole reason she's doing it at all. She's trying to recover the history of her people, and "it's a Keeper's job to remember".

And what makes you think it's a fruitless endeavor?

and if its a communication device and Merrill can someday discover how to create more - that wouldnt be good for the scattered Dalish clans? If Dalish learn to shy away from anything dealing with old Elvish magic well they might as well be called country flatears.

[TMA LIVE]

Speaking of Flemeth, her advice to Merrill is:

"As for you child, step carefully. No path is darker then when your eyes are shut."

[Bayz]

sphinxess wrote...

Matterialize wrote...

Bayz wrote...

I do not, I think her major flaw was not giving a **** about her clan in order to pursue some goals which aren't clearly going to give any results

But her clan (and the Dalish as a whole) are the whole reason she's doing it at all. She's trying to recover the history of her people, and "it's a Keeper's job to remember".

And what makes you think it's a fruitless endeavor?

and if its a communication device and Merrill can someday discover how to create more - that wouldnt be good for the scattered Dalish clans? If Dalish learn to shy away from anything dealing with old Elvish magic well they might as well be called country flatears.

Yay elves with videoconference, totally worth a clan extermination really.

[Kabraxal]

I guess with Merrill a lot depends on ther player's views on Blood Magic and demons. Since I veiw blood magic as a tool and demons in a more grey light (thanks to DAO), I fully supported Merrill and her work with the Eluvian. Which means I blame the Keeper for the events in Act 3 and not Merrill. Merrill spent years and took the precautions she could to limit any possible damage. Too bad we never got to see how it would have turned out since the Keeper was too prideful and stupid to take her own precautions before taking the demon into herself.

I think the only mistake Merrill made was not letting her clan know that she was taking the precautions or even letting them be there to help Hawke kill her if the deal with the demon went sour. Maybe the clan would have ceded to her judgement then.

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...

And it's probably true. Merrill probably still wouldn't listen.

I don't think that justifies not telling her about the demon's plans.

[Kartikeya]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The issue is you're purposefully conflating the fact that people are specifically addressing either blood magic or the crafted Eluvian, and you're making an inaccurate generalization that simply because people disagree with you on those issues, they must be claiming that Merrill is perfect.

Uh. No I'm not. I'm discussing a few different things. Go back and look at the past three or four pages. There are several people who say 'Merrill bears no responsibiity, made no mistakes, does not have those flaws you are saying she has' etc etc etc. One person at least says 'Merrill did nothing wrong' pretty much word for word. And after someone (that's not my post) points this out, people say 'oh no, we're not saying that!' And then quite a few people DO say that over the following pages. I

My original question still stands. What faults do you believe Merrill has, and what mistakes do you think she's made? Anything brought up is summarily shot down and/or placed solely at the feet of people not Merrill, so I'm interested in knowing.

LobselVith8 wrote...

The OP is the claim that Merrill is "Heartless," so you shouldn't be surprised that some people strongly disagree with such an assessment and spent their time addressing the OP rather than the various facets of Merrill's personality and flaws.

You can disagree with this assessment and still discuss her personality facets and flaws. That's kiiind've what I've been doing in this and other threads regarding her, though folks seem to leap to the conclusion that I must hate Merrill's character because I criticize things she thinks or does.

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't recall anyone claiming that Merrill wouldn't sacrifice her life to restore the Eluvian. That's why she brings Hawke along when she goes to speak with Audacity, after all.

Then we're in agreement.

LobselVith8 wrote...

I believe people are arguing that blood mages tend to be informed enough to know how much blood they can use, and when they've reached their limit. That's why blood magic isn't an automatic death sentence for blood mages.

I'm not sure where this automatic death sentence is coming from. No one has said 'using blood magic automatically kills you'. But you know, the point I made above is that one of Merrill's most repeated assertations is that she is willing to sacrifice any personal cost to fix this mirror. If that meant going past her limits when it came to blood magic, of course she would do it. That's less dangerous to other people than turning directly into an abomination.

Though on the subject of abominations, if blood mages are so good at gauging what their limits are, it begs the question as to why so many of them are prone to losing control to demons in the midst of their blood magicking.

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's a difference between standing for what you believe, and being informed that the Eluvian would be a gateway for the demon to enter the real world. However, how would Audacity know how to built such a device? Is Marethari's assessment of the situation accurate, or is this a theory of hers that lead to her becoming an abomination? We have no way of knowing the truth behind the situation.

Audacity claims it has been there (and its situation supports this) since the last great war between the ancient elves and Tevinter, in which both sides summoned demons and bound them to the mountain. Merrill will say this when questioned on it. It knows all this stuff about Eluvians, supposedly, because it has been around and watching mortal world events for a very, very, very long time. And we know from Witch Hunt that the Eluvians ARE gateways.

How much Audacity is BSing to both of them is up in the air, but it's not pulling things straight out of its demony bum. Demons seem to enjoy the truth with a little bit of lie method to the bald faced lying method. The first tends to net you more believers.

[jlb524]

Kabraxal wrote...

I think the only mistake Merrill made was not letting her clan know that she was taking the precautions or even letting them be there to help Hawke kill her if the deal with the demon went sour. Maybe the clan would have ceded to her judgement then.

That's a good point.   She could have communicated her intentions better.  Her social ineptness and/or tendency towards self-reliance prevented that.

[sphinxess]

Bayz wrote...

sphinxess wrote...

Matterialize wrote...

Bayz wrote...

I do not, I think her major flaw was not giving a **** about her clan in order to pursue some goals which aren't clearly going to give any results

But her clan (and the Dalish as a whole) are the whole reason she's doing it at all. She's trying to recover the history of her people, and "it's a Keeper's job to remember".

And what makes you think it's a fruitless endeavor?

and if its a communication device and Merrill can someday discover how to create more - that wouldnt be good for the scattered Dalish clans? If Dalish learn to shy away from anything dealing with old Elvish magic well they might as well be called country flatears.

Yay elves with videoconference, totally worth a clan extermination really.

Good point - easily worth the risk of the loss of a clan

[Bayz]

Is it? then it is a values problem we got here I'm afraid.

To me elven lives should be more important than the Eluvian. For you it's the recovering of shiny extremely big iPhones. We ain't going to agree ever.

Modifié par Bayz, 01 avril 2011 - 08:07 .

[Camenae]

Somebody's already said this but that's what this whole debate boils down to: You either think it's worth the risks or you don't.

If you thought it was worth it, then obviously you'd support Merrill. If you didn't think it was worth it, then you'd think Merrill is an idiot. Either way I don't think one side is going to be able to convince the other.

[Kartikeya]

Camenae wrote...

Somebody's already said this but that's what this whole debate boils down to: You either think it's worth the risks or you don't.

If you thought it was worth it, then obviously you'd support Merrill. If you didn't think it was worth it, then you'd think Merrill is an idiot. Either way I don't think one side is going to be able to convince the other.

What happens when you think the original risks were worth it but that maybe, possibly, perhaps, a little more caution and a little less 'I know what I'm doing!' might have resulted in a lot less tragedy? I mean, does it have to be 'I fully support Merrill and everything she does and Marethari and the rest of the Dalish are big giant poopoo heads' or 'I think Merrill is the next Hitler and is the worst person in the world and should have been killed in childhood'?

If the situation were as black and white as folks keep trying to make it, there wouldn't be any reason for actual debate.

[sphinxess]

Bayz wrote...

Is it? then it is a values problem we got here I'm afraid.

To me elven lives should be more important than the Eluvian. For you it's the recovering of shiny extremely big iPhones. We ain't going to agree ever.

Yes - to me its long term over short term - warning devices for Dalish Clans? priceless esp looking at the techonology of the Dragon Age

Modifié par sphinxess, 01 avril 2011 - 08:16 .

[Kaigen42]

So, TMA Live and Bayz, let me see if I can put your arguments in a modern analogy:

You decide to cross the street. You know that there's traffic and therefore the possibility that you will be hit, and maybe it's a bit reckless to be crossing right now but you, weighing the risks, decide that you are willing to take that risk and cross the street. Your mentor, coming to the conclusion that you are not allowed to take such risks, pushes you out of the way, falls to the pavement, and gets run over by a car that may or may not have hit you if she hadn't intervened (we'll never know). She was planning on doing this all along, but didn't feel the need to tell anybody about it.

Her death is entirely your fault.

In fact, your blame is so obvious, that when your extended family shows up on the scene five minutes later, they don't listen to your explanations and pull out guns and knives to avenge your mentor's death. They chase you no matter where you run, and will not stop trying to kill you unless you kill them.

You are, of course, a heartless, evil person for killing your extended family in self-defense. More so, because you feel grateful to your friend for helping you defend yourself and for not laying all the blame for this atrocity solely at your feet.

Now, you might say that's a bad analogy, because Merill's situation is much different from simply crossing the street, and you'd probably be right; I used that one because it has already been used in this thread. There are other analogies you could make, though. If you planned to enlist during a time of war knowing that it was likely you would die in combat, would you be to blame for someone killing the army recruitment officer and going to prison to stop you from enlisting? Would you be to blame for someone killing themselves to prevent you from taking a dangerous job?

[Camenae]

Kartikeya wrote...

What happens when you think the original risks were worth it but that maybe, possibly, perhaps, a little more caution and a little less 'I know what I'm doing!' might have resulted in a lot less tragedy? I mean, does it have to be 'I fully support Merrill and everything she does and Marethari and the rest of the Dalish are big giant poopoo heads' or 'I think Merrill is the next Hitler and is the worst person in the world and should have been killed in childhood'?

If the situation were as black and white as folks keep trying to make it, there wouldn't be any reason for actual debate.

Yeah I can see that, sure.  I think it's noble that Merrill is trying so hard to recover her people's culture.  What I don't like is her hardheaded "I know what I'm doing!" the whole time.  Oh yeah? Then those who defend Merrill by saying, "but she couldn't have known that ....[what happened to Marethari, the Dalish, etc.]"  I'll say, yes I totally AGREE with that.  In fact that's my whole point!  That Merrill CAN'T foresee all the consequences, good or bad, sooooo stop saying "I know exactly what I'm doing!"

[jlb524]

Kartikeya wrote...

What happens when you think the original risks were worth it but that maybe, possibly, perhaps, a little more caution and a little less 'I know what I'm doing!' might have resulted in a lot less tragedy?

The only problem here is that Hawke is pretty ignorant when it comes to the finer details of what Merrill is doing.  So, Hawke can either trust that she knows what she's doing or not.  

Kartikeya wrote...
I mean, does it have to be 'I fully support Merrill and everything she does and Marethari and the rest of the Dalish are big giant poopoo heads'

It doesn't have to be that way.  As mentioned above, Merrill's major mistake is that she did a poor job of communicating her intentions with the others in her clan.  If she was more charismatic or even cared to try and involve them, she might have been able to allay their fears and convince them to support her endeavors.

[Bayz]

Kartikeya wrote...

Camenae wrote...

Somebody's already said this but that's what this whole debate boils down to: You either think it's worth the risks or you don't.

If you thought it was worth it, then obviously you'd support Merrill. If you didn't think it was worth it, then you'd think Merrill is an idiot. Either way I don't think one side is going to be able to convince the other.

What happens when you think the original risks were worth it but that maybe, possibly, perhaps, a little more caution and a little less 'I know what I'm doing!' might have resulted in a lot less tragedy? I mean, does it have to be 'I fully support Merrill and everything she does and Marethari and the rest of the Dalish are big giant poopoo heads' or 'I think Merrill is the next Hitler and is the worst person in the world and should have been killed in childhood'?

If the situation were as black and white as folks keep trying to make it, there wouldn't be any reason for actual debate.

I am neither. I knew the situation was going to degenerate  and to myself I would cut it out in act 2 by not giving her the dagger (wasn't going  to romannce her anyway)...but I actively seeked the elf confrontation.

She was indeed responsible for the clans deaths in my eyes, but I knew she didn't really wanted the resolution it had (never thought she did). I agree that she  was more irresponsible than anything else (is why I posted the  "Fluffy destroyer of worlds" and stuff before).

She is a lovely person to have around, but the worst choice to have taking decisions that may affect people's lifes...kinda the Alistair actually.

[LobselVith8]

Kartikeya wrote...

Uh. No I'm not. I'm discussing a few different things. Go back and look at the past three or four pages.

I've read the thread. People have very different opinions on both sides of the issue.

Kartikeya wrote...

There are several people who say 'Merrill bears no responsibiity, made no mistakes, does not have those flaws you are saying she has' etc etc etc. One person at least says 'Merrill did nothing wrong' pretty much word for word. And after someone (that's not my post) points this out, people say 'oh no, we're not saying that!' And then quite a few people DO say that over the following pages.

You also have people on the other side of the debate claiming that Merrill is a mass-murder who favors the death of her people over being told she's wrong.

I think that the general idea some people are trying to address is that they don't see why Merrill should be blamed for the actions of another adult, who chose of her own volition to become an abomination. Merrill and Marethari are responsible for their own actions.

Kartikeya wrote...

My original question still stands. What faults do you believe Merrill has, and what mistakes do you think she's made? Anything brought up is summarily shot down and/or placed solely at the feet of people not Merrill, so I'm interested in knowing.

Are you talking about her sense of direction in Kirkwall, her difficulty in grasping human culture or getting accustomed to the life of the Alienage? Being socially inept?

Kartikeya wrote...

You can disagree with this assessment and still discuss her personality facets and flaws. That's kiiind've what I've been doing in this and other threads regarding her, though folks seem to leap to the conclusion that I must hate Merrill's character because I criticize things she thinks or does.

I agree. People should be able to disagree without it turning personal. I understanding the feeling, I get the same because I don't think Anders should be crucified. And I've gotten plenty more because I don't think mages should be imprisoned for being mages.

Kartikeya wrote...

I'm not sure where this automatic death sentence is coming from. No one has said 'using blood magic automatically kills you'. But you know, the point I made above is that one of Merrill's most repeated assertations is that she is willing to sacrifice any personal cost to fix this mirror. If that meant going past her limits when it came to blood magic, of course she would do it. That's less dangerous to other people than turning directly into an abomination.

Though on the subject of abominations, if blood mages are so good at gauging what their limits are, it begs the question as to why so many of them are prone to losing control to demons in the midst of their blood magicking.

Based on the dialogue with Mouse in the Magi Origin, it's referenced as a "test of wills." There's also the fact that when a mage summons too many demons into the physical world (demonology), it can leave you vunerable to getting overwhelmed and overtaken by them, which is what happened to Sophia Dryden and Uldred.

Kartikeya wrote...

Audacity claims it has been there (and its situation supports this) since the last great war between the ancient elves and Tevinter, in which both sides summoned demons and bound them to the mountain. Merrill will say this when questioned on it. It knows all this stuff about Eluvians, supposedly, because it has been around and watching mortal world events for a very, very, very long time. And we know from Witch Hunt that the Eluvians ARE gateways.

I apologize. I should have clarified my statement. I meant how Audacity would have the knowledge of reconfiguring the Eluvian to serve as a gateway out of its prison, as the abomination Marethari claimed.

Kartikeya wrote...

How much Audacity is BSing to both of them is up in the air, but it's not pulling things straight out of its demony bum. Demons seem to enjoy the truth with a little bit of lie method to the bald faced lying method. The first tends to net you more believers.

It could have been lying the whole time. I'm surprised why Merrill never asks Anders if Justice knew about Arlathan. I wonder why Merrill couldn't get the same information from the spirits of the Fade, who have been called on by spirit healers to help agument their healing abilities. Might not the spirits have knowledge about Arlathan?

[The Baconer]

Kaigen42 wrote...

So, TMA Live and Bayz, let me see if I can put your arguments in a modern analogy:

You decide to cross the street. You know that there's traffic and therefore the possibility that you will be hit, and maybe it's a bit reckless to be crossing right now but you, weighing the risks, decide that you are willing to take that risk and cross the street. Your mentor, coming to the conclusion that you are not allowed to take such risks, pushes you out of the way, falls to the pavement, and gets run over by a car that may or may not have hit you if she hadn't intervened (we'll never know).

I think we do. What else do you think would happen, exactly? That Merrill outsmarts the demon? Like the other demon in the Fade that got her to cut a deal within the span of three sentences?

EDIT: I'm not saying Marethari's decision and the resulting consequences are all Merrills fault, I'm just saying she's definitely not going to successfully play the demon, and everyone can see that.

Modifié par The Baconer, 01 avril 2011 - 08:38 .

[Camenae]

Hmm, well I'm curious about this now too: So I think part of what Kartikeya is asking--and please correct me if I'm wrong--for those who are saying: "I agree that Merrill has flaws BUT" and then goes on to wholeheartedly defend Merrill without any further mention of said flaws, what flaws exactly do you see Merrill as having?

Because if you aren't willing or able to name any, then it seems that that's just paying lip service while still thinking that she is indeed flawless.