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[Darth Krytie]

Kabraxal wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...
That's only if you think talking to demons is always stupid.  Some of us to subscribe to that ideology at all. 

Yes because talking and making deals with demons never backfires at all right?

Not saying it doesn't end that way sometimes.  But we have proof that it can be done and done with no horrendous repercussions as well. 

Demon deals don't always end badly.  Blood magic is only a tool that depends on the individual wielding it.  Neither are universally bad or good.  And if you understand that little fact it is quite easy to see why so many do trust Merrill here. 

Just saying that making deals with demons in Origins...yes, your character can avoid complications in some of those situations...but the end result tends to leave that demon around to work it's bad juju on others. So, I can't really see how that works out in the end. Letting  a demon go to kill and drain others isn't really a point in the pro-demon column in my book.

Demons are bad....if they weren't, they'd be called something else like Magical Attribute Faries or Magical Talent Training  Faries. They're not. Even if you don't pay the price for what you learn, someone else will. And that's even worse.

[The Baconer]

Kabraxal wrote...

I don't agree that talking with demons or blood magic is always wrong.  I completely disagree in fact.  While the normal unprepared sop is doomed in those scenarios, someone that has taken the time to prepare and take precautions is not guarenteed to fail like some of you mistakingly believe.  Yes, mistakingly.  We have proof that demons can be talked to and blood magic can be used without horrendous repercussions in Origins.

I agree, but Merrill doesn't meet any of those criteria.

[Kabraxal]

Darth Krytie wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...
That's only if you think talking to demons is always stupid.  Some of us to subscribe to that ideology at all. 

Yes because talking and making deals with demons never backfires at all right?

Not saying it doesn't end that way sometimes.  But we have proof that it can be done and done with no horrendous repercussions as well. 

Demon deals don't always end badly.  Blood magic is only a tool that depends on the individual wielding it.  Neither are universally bad or good.  And if you understand that little fact it is quite easy to see why so many do trust Merrill here. 

Just saying that making deals with demons in Origins...yes, your character can avoid complications in some of those situations...but the end result tends to leave that demon around to work it's bad juju on others. So, I can't really see how that works out in the end. Letting  a demon go to kill and drain others isn't really a point in the pro-demon column in my book.

Demons are bad....if they weren't, they'd be called something else like Magical Attribute Faries or Magical Talent Training  Faries. They're not. Even if you don't pay the price for what you learn, someone else will. And that's even worse.

I actually don't agree.  The one desire demon in the circle didn't have that aura of evil while a generally "good" spirit like Justice comes off as far more dangerous and evil in the long run.

And despite the assumed evil of all demons, that does not mean all deals made with them will end badly or be evil acts.  And that is the real point.

[Mr.House]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Let's look at Dragon Age: Origins. The Warden can hear the Desire Demon out, coerce her to leave Connor and abanon the deal she made with the boy, and gain the knowledge of blood magic in exchange for sparing her life.

There you go, it's the Warden, of course it does not go bad. The Warden can turn anything good.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

I always liked the Sloth demons... they always seemed so nice and mellow.

In the Mage origin the Sloth demon wasn't evil at all he just wanted to be left alone but was willing to help you if you bothered him enough lol

[Bayz]

Aye except that shadow one in the Brecilian Forest that tries to slaughter you party in sleep.

[Kabraxal]

Mr.House wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Let's look at Dragon Age: Origins. The Warden can hear the Desire Demon out, coerce her to leave Connor and abanon the deal she made with the boy, and gain the knowledge of blood magic in exchange for sparing her life.

There you go, it's the Warden, of course it does not go bad. The Warden can turn anything good.

It is still proof that it can be done, Warden or not.

[Mr.House]

Kabraxal wrote...
I actually don't agree.  The one desire demon in the circle didn't have that aura of evil while a generally "good" spirit like Justice comes off as far more dangerous and evil in the long run.

And despite the assumed evil of all demons, that does not mean all deals made with them will end badly or be evil acts.  And that is the real point.

Well if justice, he was only corrupted because of Anders hate. Justice and may sdpirits in the fade who don't care for mortals are not evil, unlike demons.

In fact, a spirit being corrupted only depends on the person. Let's compare Anders and Wynn. Anders hate turned Justice into something worse, where with Wynn her spirit didn't corrupt her. A demons goal is to cross the vail and mess around with the mortal world, a spirit does not care. Tho when a spirit is corrupted it wants to meddle into the affairs of the mortal world, Justice is a perfect example of this.

[The Baconer]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Let's look at Dragon Age: Origins. The Warden can hear the Desire Demon out, coerce her to leave Connor and abanon the deal she made with the boy, and gain the knowledge of blood magic in exchange for sparing her life.

If you can use the walking Mary Sue's miracle working as evidence in favor of her actions I don't see why we can't use her betrayal in Fade as evidence against her.

Modifié par The Baconer, 01 avril 2011 - 10:20 .

[Darth Krytie]

Kabraxal wrote...


I actually don't agree.  The one desire demon in the circle didn't have that aura of evil while a generally "good" spirit like Justice comes off as far more dangerous and evil in the long run.

And despite the assumed evil of all demons, that does not mean all deals made with them will end badly or be evil acts.  And that is the real point.

1. Demons that possess dead bodies end up as: shambling corpses, arcane horrors, revenants, etc. Which always, always try to kill you. Frequently.

2. Demons survive by draining the life of their host. That "nice" Desire Demon in the circle will drain that dude's life. And one that dude is dead, she will find another dude. Granted, maybe he is happier...but he will never have the chance to find out if he could have had a happy life because he will be dead. And dead is pretty final. It's committing suicide. And that, in my book, is bad.

3. I wasn't debating Justice. I never commneted on a spirit who acts on one base emotion and doesn't have any sort of checks and balances. It's actually pretty irrevelant to my point. Even bringing him into the debate doesn't derail my point as Justice doing more damage doesn't negate the fact that other Demons do so too. It's  like saying Jeff killed ten more people than Larry, who only killed eight, ergo Larry is good and we should let him be free to kill more as long as he never kills as much as Jeff.

Modifié par Darth Krytie, 01 avril 2011 - 10:22 .

[Vormaerin]

The Fade sequence is just silly, frankly. Multiple people who are totally against demons, blood magic, or any sort of related ickiness just up and yield in seconds. Isabella is probably the only believable reaction and eve that is a bit over the top. So I'm not inclined to take anything about that sequence as "real" character development. Its more likely some kind of Fade powered mind control like all the NPC inaction in DAO's fade than an actual real agreement.

The problem with this discussion is that we don't know what Merrill actually knows. Whether this is because the developers decided not to have a speech full of magical goobledygook or because she didn't tell us for secrety reasons like Anders or because she didn't actually know anything is entirely unclear.

We don't know if it was possible to restore the Eluvian. We don't know what it actually does. But we do know its a pretty bad ass example of Arlathan elf magic, not just "a webcam".

Regarding Merrill, I don't see how anyone can argue that she wanted to kill the elves of the clan or even how she is at fault for that. Over and over and over again we see the Dalish elves acting unreasonably and violently. Zathrian's vengeance is insanely overreacting. The Dalish girl in Awakenings is a total psycho. Those Dalish elves in the Wounded Coast try to kill you for merely suggesting that a man suffering a DALISH CURSE is not to blame for killing someone while under its influence.

Everyone is down on Merrill, but she's the least insane Dalish elf we've ever met, as far as I can tell. What evidence is there that Marethari is competent or rational? She looks like a kindly old woman? She could just as easily be another nutjob like Zathrian the whole time. She poisons the entire clan against Merrill to the point that they are openly terrified or hostile to her. She leads her clan to destruction. Somehow they lose all their Halla, she keeps them in the vicinity of a demon..which apparently has been possessing her for at least half the game, if not the entire time. Where does she learn this secret ritual for letting folks into the fade without a dozen mages and oodles of lyrium that the Irving needed?

Merrill has an unhealthy tolerance for demonology, as its been made clear over and over again that any kind of dealings with spirits is inherently risky. Yet, she's also the only bloodmage (other than the Warden and Champion) who doesn't turn into a psycho. So she's not just some bimbo about to get turned to mulch by Audacity.

Marethari is the abomination, not Merrill, regardless of what her motivation is. The Dalish are vengeance obsessed psychos who don't judge the merits of cases or the limits of appropriateness, as we've seen over and over again.

Merrill could be right or wrong about her plan and blood magic is certainly an extremely risky way to pursue it, but she's not at fault for the actions of the Keeper or the clan.

[Mr.House]

Kabraxal wrote...
It is still proof that it can be done, Warden or not.

Using a character that can become a big Marry Sue is hardly a good argument.

[Kabraxal]

Darth Krytie wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...


I actually don't agree.  The one desire demon in the circle didn't have that aura of evil while a generally "good" spirit like Justice comes off as far more dangerous and evil in the long run.

And despite the assumed evil of all demons, that does not mean all deals made with them will end badly or be evil acts.  And that is the real point.

1. Demons that possess dead bodies end up as: shambling corpses, arcane horrors, revenants, etc. Which always, always try to kill you. Frequently.

2. Demons survive by draining the life of their host. That "nice" Desire Demon in the circle will drain that dude's life. And one that dude is dead, she will find another dude. Granted, maybe he is happier...but he will never have the chance to find out if he could have had a happy life because he will be dead. And dead is pretty final. It's committing suicide. And that, in my book, is bad.

3. I wasn't debating Justice. I never commneted on a spirit who acts on one base emotion and doesn't have any sort of checks and balances. It's actually pretty irrevelant to my point. Even bringing him into the debate doesn't derail my point as Justice doing more damage doesn't negate the fact that other Demons do so too. It's not like saying Jeff killed ten more people than Larry, who only killed eight, ergo Larry is good and we should let him be free to kill more as long as he never kills as much as Jeff.

My point was that simply a name like demon doesn't mean they are as evil as possible.  In fact, in terms of destructive power and consequences shown throughout all games, a spirit like Justice has been far more damaging and dangerous even before being tainted.

Merrill understood the dangers in dealing with fade creatures, even moreso than Anders who still clung to that ridiculous belief that spirits and demons are actually different.

To those using this "mary sue" bull as a reason to wave away actual evidence....I see no point in arguing if that is your response.  You are set on ignoring anything that proves that there is actual reasons to support Merrill. 

Modifié par Kabraxal, 01 avril 2011 - 10:26 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Bayz wrote...

Aye except that shadow one in the Brecilian Forest that tries to slaughter you party in sleep.

Hey, the party broke into its camp site and started sleeping on its stuff... I bet you'd react negatively too if you came home and saw some stranger sleeping on your bed wouldn't you lol

I hope that the Sloth Demon gets some more screen time next game because I always thought that would be the kind of demon that you could deal with and maybe even talk into helping you (Like the Sloth-bear did)

Sloth Demon: Can you give me that mage's soul when you're done smacking around the other demons? I'll give you some cool stuff?
Hawke: Sure... after that do you want to use the mage's body to help me smack around some people? It'll be fun?
Sloth Demon: Can I sleep after we do that?
Hawke: Of course.
Sloth Demon: Ok. As long as I get to sleep afterwards

Modifié par ISpeakTheTruth, 01 avril 2011 - 10:31 .

[The Baconer]

Vormaerin wrote...

The Fade sequence is just silly, frankly. Multiple people who are totally against demons, blood magic, or any sort of related ickiness just up and yield in seconds. Isabella is probably the only believable reaction and eve that is a bit over the top. So I'm not inclined to take anything about that sequence as "real" character development. Its more likely some kind of Fade powered mind control like all the NPC inaction in DAO's fade than an actual real agreement.

That still doesn't explain why she apparently favors the idea of letting Torpor possess Feynriel.

[LobselVith8]

Mr.House wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Let's look at Dragon Age: Origins. The Warden can hear the Desire Demon out, coerce her to leave Connor and abanon the deal she made with the boy, and gain the knowledge of blood magic in exchange for sparing her life.

There you go, it's the Warden, of course it does not go bad. The Warden can turn anything good.

And since the Warden's decisions and actions are imported into the sequel to reflect the world shaped by the Hero of Ferelden, they can be canon.

[Camenae]

The Baconer wrote...

I would agree, if that weren't the only piece of evidence. When Torpor approaches you in the fade, and makes his offer, immediately initiating combat with him will net you Rivalry points with Merrill. I don't see a problem with that, she at leasts wants you to hear what he has to say, so that makes sense. But, if you agree to his offer, that is if you agree to let him possess Feynriel, you get Friendship points from her. I'm sorry, but that is just sketchy. Also, if Anders is in your party when you agree to the demon's offer, and you defeat him in combat, you have a chance to either keep your decision or turn down Torpor's bargain. Turning it down nets you Rivalry points with her. She's a total Daemonophile (new word?), and this knowledge has completely soured my opinion of her on future playthroughs.

That is pretty shady.  The getting Friendship from you killing her clan is her being grateful that you're defending her, all right, I don't agree but I can see that.  But getting Friendship when a demon outright says, "I'm going to possess somebody!"....Ew...

[jlb524]

I just want someone to prove that demons are absolutely more dangerous than people always.

Isabela's dealings with the qunari caused a hell of a lot more death and destruction than Merrill's dealings with the Pride Demon.

[Kartikeya]

Kabraxal wrote...

I actually don't agree.  The one desire demon in the circle didn't have that aura of evil while a generally "good" spirit like Justice comes off as far more dangerous and evil in the long run.

And despite the assumed evil of all demons, that does not mean all deals made with them will end badly or be evil acts.  And that is the real point.

This thread has already been over that particular desire demon and how, uh, she wasn't exactly standing there not hurting anyone. She's killing that Templar she's making so happy. Whether or not that's a preferable end to how he was before is up for debate. And you know, whatever she does after he's gone and she's still in the mortal realm. There are a lot of desire demons that just outright attack you with their templar thralls in that tower, of course. This one decides to have a bit of a chat in the hopes that you'll just leave her alone.

Demons want stuff. Demons generally tend to want stuff that will hurt someone. Making a deal with a demon therefore generally involves someone, somewhere, getting the raw end. A deal implies that both parties get something out of it. If you're a badass Player Character, then you've got the leeway to, sometimes, break the deal and give the demons the finger.

[Kabraxal]

Kartikeya wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

I actually don't agree.  The one desire demon in the circle didn't have that aura of evil while a generally "good" spirit like Justice comes off as far more dangerous and evil in the long run.

And despite the assumed evil of all demons, that does not mean all deals made with them will end badly or be evil acts.  And that is the real point.

This thread has already been over that particular desire demon and how, uh, she wasn't exactly standing there not hurting anyone. She's killing that Templar she's making so happy. Whether or not that's a preferable end to how he was before is up for debate. And you know, whatever she does after he's gone and she's still in the mortal realm. There are a lot of desire demons that just outright attack you with their templar thralls in that tower, of course. This one decides to have a bit of a chat in the hopes that you'll just leave her alone.

Demons want stuff. Demons generally tend to want stuff that will hurt someone. Making a deal with a demon therefore generally involves someone, somewhere, getting the raw end. A deal implies that both parties get something out of it. If you're a badass Player Character, then you've got the leeway to, sometimes, break the deal and give the demons the finger.

People want stuff.  People generally hurt others to get that stuff.  A lot of times that stuff will hurt someone after that. 

Really, J has a point.  People are far worse than any demon and this ridiculous double standard people seem to hold in this regard is quite baffling.  "Demons are dangerous don't deal with them!"... well people are more dangerous.  So we should spend the entire game scrounging in the wild and keeping far from the most destructive entities known to exist.

[Kartikeya]

jlb524 wrote...

I just want someone to prove that demons are absolutely more dangerous than people always.

Isabela's dealings with the qunari caused a hell of a lot more death and destruction than Merrill's dealings with the Pride Demon.

Quite true, but I'm not sure why they have to be 'more dangerous' or 'more destructive' to still be 'dangerous and destructive with the sole apparent goal of 'screw with mortals and maybe it's not the greatest idea to make deals with a being that, by its very nature, is that single-minded and focused on causing people harm'.

A gun is dangerous. A bomb is more dangerous. The bomb being more dangerous and capable of more damage does not lessen the danger of the gun. It just means the bomb is more dangerous. Getting on the wrong end of either is pretty unhealthy.

[Mr.House]

jlb524 wrote...

I just want someone to prove that demons are absolutely more dangerous than people always.

Isabela's dealings with the qunari caused a hell of a lot more death and destruction than Merrill's dealings with the Pride Demon.

Because her dealings did not make it that far. Crazy ladies sister turned into an abomination, killed her whole familly and killed over seventy people before she was stricken down. That was one abomionation. The cicle in Fereldan almost fell because of a pride demon and his blood mages. Justice blew up the Chantry killing many inocent people including the woman who could make a compromise.  People are bad yes, but when a demon does get out of the fade and corrupts someone very very powerful, they can do worse.

Modifié par Mr.House, 01 avril 2011 - 10:37 .

[LobselVith8]

The Baconer wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Let's look at Dragon Age: Origins. The Warden can hear the Desire Demon out, coerce her to leave Connor and abanon the deal she made with the boy, and gain the knowledge of blood magic in exchange for sparing her life.

If you can use the walking Mary Sue's miracle working as evidence in favor of her actions I don't see why we can't use her betrayal in Fade as evidence against her.

For the same reasons we don't try to explain why guards and templars have selective amnesia about Hawke's status as an apostate, or why every single character except Anders betrays you as well despite their status with Hawke? When the story dictates that every character who accompanies Hawe will betray him except for the single abomination with him, then it feels forced.

[jlb524]

Kartikeya wrote...

A gun is dangerous. A bomb is more dangerous. The bomb being more dangerous and capable of more damage does not lessen the danger of the gun. It just means the bomb is more dangerous. Getting on the wrong end of either is pretty unhealthy.

Of course it doesn't...so we should avoid bombs and guns?  We should all become hermits in the quest to avoid those dangerous humans?   

It's like saying, "Bombs are more dangerous than guns, but just avoid using those evil guns.  Bombs are fine, though."

[Darth Krytie]

Kabraxal wrote...


My point was that simply a name like demon doesn't mean they are as evil as possible.  In fact, in terms of destructive power and consequences shown throughout all games, a spirit like Justice has been far more damaging and dangerous even before being tainted.

 

My point is that even if they're not as evil as possible and as destructive as possible, they are still evil and still destructive. Degree doesn't really matter! Something being worse, doesn't make this other thing good. It just makes it less evil.

And, what does Wesley say? Darkspawn are a known quantity...Demons are a known quantity. They want something and that somehting always will include something bad for some living being. Always. Merrill knows this and tries to deal regardless. That's not a good decision. Anders' decision is mostly bad in hindsight. A bad decision, yes, but one I do not think Anders could have foreseen.