377 réponses à ce sujet

[Vormaerin]

The Baconer wrote...

That still doesn't explain why she apparently favors the idea of letting Torpor possess Feynriel.

Yes, that is another bit of WTF? in the interaction.  It makes about as much sense as Avelline and Varric turning on you when an obvious demon makes an obviously trapped offer when they both have shown the ability to resist far more insidious pressures elsewhere.

Everywhere else in the game, Merrill is against abominations and possession.   She just believes blood magic and knowledge are tools without moral value in and of themselves.

[Kabraxal]

Mr.House wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I just want someone to prove that demons are absolutely more dangerous than people always.

Isabela's dealings with the qunari caused a hell of a lot more death and destruction than Merrill's dealings with the Pride Demon.

Because her dealings did not make it that far. Crazy ladies sister turned into an abonation, killed her whole familly and killed over seventy people before he was stricken down. That was one abonation. The cicle in Fereldan almost fell because of a pride demon and his blood mages. Justice blew up the Chantry killnig many inocent people including the woman who could make a compromise.  People are bad yes, but when a demon does get out of the fade and corrupts someone very very powerful, they can do worse.

I disagree again.  Thedas has apparently had to deal with demons for a long time, yet they haven't managed to decimate the world or destroy it.  However, the Exalted Marches, the Qunari invasions, the Mages gone whacko without demonic intervention, the rapists, the murderers, the politics.... those have or have nearly brought nations crumbling and destroyed countless lives.  In the long run humans have proven far more dangerous than the demons.

That is probably because the demons are so constrained in their desire and their methods while humans are  not.  And are far, far more subtle.  Or just really brutal... Loghain..... *cough*

[The Baconer]

jlb524 wrote...

I just want someone to prove that demons are absolutely more dangerous than people always.

Isabela's dealings with the qunari caused a hell of a lot more death and destruction than Merrill's dealings with the Pride Demon.

1. You're pushing a point that nobody was arguing in the first place.

2. It's easy to make this arguement when you can't really encounter Demons unless you actively seek them out, and the results of such a meeting are fairly predictable, and backed by evidence. An exception to this is when the Veil is sundered, and demons can approach you at their leisure. If you need examples of this, try Soldier's Peak, Blackmarsh, the Circle Tower during the Uldred situation, Redcliffe while Connor is possessed, and the lower reaches of Kirkwall. Now, in all the examples I've laid out, where the chance between interacting with a demon and a human is on more equal footing, do you think it points to Demons being more or less immediately destructive?

Modifié par The Baconer, 01 avril 2011 - 10:42 .

[Camenae]

Demons not causing enough trouble...Umm, the Blights?

[jlb524]

Mr.House wrote...
Because her dealings did not make it that far. Crazy ladies sister turned into an abomination, killed her whole familly and killed over seventy people before she was stricken down. That was one abomionation. The cicle in Fereldan almost fell because of a pride demon and his blood mages. Justice blew up the Chantry killing many inocent people including the woman who could make a compromise.

The funny thing is that all of these examples, the crazy schemes that led to the creation of an abomination originated in the mind of a person who wanted power or justice or whatever....the demon is just the tool they chose to use.

People are what make demons dangerous and give them power in the first place.  Though, I also think people can successfully manipulate demons too and not every encounter leads to awful things.

[Vormaerin]

What demons are involved in the blights? The "archdemon" doesn't appear to be anything of the sort. Its a super powerful dragon, not a fade spirit of emotion.

[Mr.House]

I rather be stabbed in the heart by a friend or ripped to shreds by darkspawn then be possessed by a demon and kill people I love or be controlled against my own will.

[Kartikeya]

Kabraxal wrote...

People want stuff.  People generally hurt others to get that stuff.  A lot of times that stuff will hurt someone after that. 

Really, J has a point.  People are far worse than any demon and this ridiculous double standard people seem to hold in this regard is quite baffling.  "Demons are dangerous don't deal with them!"... well people are more dangerous.  So we should spend the entire game scrounging in the wild and keeping far from the most destructive entities known to exist.

Spirits are not like people. A person is nuanced and made up of many different emotions, motivations, opinions, and all of these can and do change.

A spirit is a being that defines its entire being by ONE of these emotions/motivations/opinions whatever. Justice doesn't call himself Justice because he thinks justice is neat and it's a cool name. He tells the Warden to call him that because that is what he has chosen to be and fully embody to the exclusion of just about everything else. Even the most single-minded, dedicated human being doesn't attain this kind of existence. It's implied by both games that spirits can change. But a spirit changing to a different emotion/motivation/opinion/whatever seems to mean they're now fully embodying THAT trait, again to the exclusion of pretty much all else. Justice becomes Vengeance, a being that the original Justice would find abhorrent. The Grand Oak becomes...well, the Grand Oak. He's a tree and he likes it and all he wants to be is a tree (that rhymes).

This is why spirits, of all stripes, are particularly dangerous when mortals deal with them. Mortals have this funny way of assuming spirits think like they do (kind've like we assume dogs and cats and birds think like we do, and get confused when they don't). After all, they can sound very very reasonable. They can make incredibly convincing arguments. And a spirit that embodies Pride knows exactly how to play to a mortal's own pride.

I always figured that was the point of Feynriel's Fade sequence. Everyone is vulnerable (except the player character can resist by virtue of being the player character). That everyone is vulnerable does not mean that Merrill's vulnerability doesn't matter.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

On a more serious note I don't think humans or any race in Thedas has the moral high ground when it comes to saying who is or isn't inherantly more dangerous. Every race in Thedas has done monsterous things to one another that would make most demons blush.

Sure alot of demons want things from others and will try to get the most of of each deal but... so does everyone. But as the friendly Sloth-Bear has shown you can deal with a demon and just as easily have nothing bad happen to you.

[Mr.House]

jlb524 wrote...
The funny thing is that all of these examples, the crazy schemes that led to the creation of an abomination originated in the mind of a person who wanted power or justice or whatever....the demon is just the tool they chose to use.

People are what make demons dangerous and give them power in the first place.  Though, I also think people can successfully manipulate demons too and not every encounter leads to awful things.

And you just proved my point. Merrill has alot of pride, the demon she was talking with was a pride demon. You really think it would not have blacklashed? People who can retrain themselfs from demons are people who can control there desires, pride ect. Merrill says it right out, she will do anything to help her people, that's not the attitude you want to have with a pride demon.

[Kartikeya]

jlb524 wrote...

Kartikeya wrote...

A gun is dangerous. A bomb is more dangerous. The bomb being more dangerous and capable of more damage does not lessen the danger of the gun. It just means the bomb is more dangerous. Getting on the wrong end of either is pretty unhealthy.

Of course it doesn't...so we should avoid bombs and guns?  We should all become hermits in the quest to avoid those dangerous humans?   

It's like saying, "Bombs are more dangerous than guns, but just avoid using those evil guns.  Bombs are fine, though."

Strawman arguments are not helpful.

No, maybe you should respect that guns and bombs are both destructive, dangerous things, and that one being more destructive than the other doesn't mean that you should ignore the lesser danger or that the lesser danger is not still, you know, dangerous.

Demons are dangerous. People can be dangerous. One does not cancel out the other.

[jlb524]

The Baconer wrote...

1. You're pushing a point that nobody was arguing in the first place.

I think it's an implied thing that most feel demons are such a complete and utter danger that anyone who deals with them is a complete fool (i.e., Merrill).  My point being that there are many other things that are also dangerous or possibly even moreso than dealing with a demon. 

The Baconer wrote...
2. It's easy to make this arguement when you can't really encounter Demons unless you actively seek them out, and the results of such a meeting are fairly predictable, and backed by evidence. An exception to this is when the Veil is sundered, and demons can approach you at their leisure. If you need examples of this, try Soldier's Peak, Blackmarsh, the Circle Tower during the Uldred situation, Redcliffe while Connor is possessed, and the lower reaches of Kirkwall. Now, in all the examples I've laid out, where the chance between interacting with a demon and a human is on more equal footing, do you think it points to Demons being more or less immediately destructive?

The destruction I've seen demons do just doesn't compare with what humans are capable of doing to each other.  The thing is, demons don't organize and form governments or systems of oppression.   They don't create armies to send out of the Fade in order to possess as many humans as possible.  If they did this, then they would be really dangerous.    They don't....demons/fade spirits seem to be loners.  Even if a group of them spill out of the Fade and attack you, they don't form a cohesive squad...they just blindly attack. 

[jlb524]

Kartikeya wrote...

Strawman arguments are not helpful.

No, maybe you should respect that guns and bombs are both destructive, dangerous things, and that one being more destructive than the other doesn't mean that you should ignore the lesser danger or that the lesser danger is not still, you know, dangerous.

Demons are dangerous. People can be dangerous. One does not cancel out the other.

I've never said they cancel out.  My point was to bring up the hypocrisy of dealing with humans in spite the risk (totally okay) vs. dealing with demons in spite of the risk (totally not okay and crazy!).

[Kaigen42]

Kartikeya wrote...

A better analogy, but still very flawed, is that Merrill decided to go play in traffic, and Marethari got hit by a truck trying to get her out of the way. Would she have been hit by that truck? Would she have been hit by another car? Would she have been perfectly fine if Marethari did nothing? We don't know.  I object to the assumption that because we don't know, we should assume Merrill is correct and Marethari is wrong.

And I object to the assumption that because we don't know, we should assume that Marethari is correct and Merrill is wrong.

Boiling it down to 'Marethari is just stupid, the Dalish are just crazy, and Merrill had good intentions and anything bad that happens in reaction to what she does despite all warnings that something bad was going to happen are just these things that happen in a void because people are stupid and ignorant' is ignoring the entire point of the tragedy.

And boiling it down to "Merrill is stupid, heartless, naive, arrogant, and completely to blame for Marethari deciding to become an abomination (which was the best possible course of action), and also to blame for her clan deciding down to every last person to try to kill her" also ignores the point of the tragedy. The tragedy is that Marethari and Merrill are both stubborn and refuse to consider the other person's point of view, and the clan takes Marethari's argument so to heart that they see Merrill as a greater threat than any demon or monster. Marethari refuses to believe that Merrill can handle the risks, even with help, and so refuses that help without any kind of explanation. She then warns the clan so strenuously that they will run from a non-threatening Merrill into mortal danger. Her refusal to believe that what Merrill wants to accomplish is possible goes so far that she triggers the very tragedy she wants to prevent and then some. Merrill stubbornly refuses to give up repairing the Eluvian despite the fact that it isolates her from the very people she's trying to help and believes that it may well kill her in the process.

Marethari and Merrill are both full of Pride and hubris, and that is the cause of this tragedy surrounding a demon of, fittingly enough, pride. If Marethari had been willing to offer a better explanation instead of simply telling Merrill "It's better left buried," would Merrill have listened? If Merrill had looked for another way to fix the Eluvian besides dealing with demons and blood magic, would Marethari have consented to help her? That's not how the story worked out, that's not who those characters are/were.

I'm willing to admit Merrill's pride. I'm willing to admit that Merrill is too willing to deal with demons and too unwilling to break deals with them. What I'm not willing to do is blame Merrill for Marethari's hubris. Marethari is the one who choose to definitely become an abomination as opposed to risking the possibility. And Marethari is the one who poisoned the clan towards Merrill to the point that they see a misguided youth as capable of any evil without any other evidence. Think about it, do we have any evidence that Merrill has ever hurt a member of her clan? That she has used one of their blood for her magic, or summoned a demon into the camp who then went on a rampage? She has engaged in risky behavior to be sure, but has that actually hurt the clan in any way? I can't even think of an instance of her using harsh language at them, much less physical or supernatural violence. And yet, based purely on Marethari's say-so, they were willing to make her a pariah, Pol was willing to run into mortal danger, and they were willing to fight to the last person to try to kill her. I'm not willing to blame Merrill for that either.

[Kabraxal]

Mr.House wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
The funny thing is that all of these examples, the crazy schemes that led to the creation of an abomination originated in the mind of a person who wanted power or justice or whatever....the demon is just the tool they chose to use.

People are what make demons dangerous and give them power in the first place.  Though, I also think people can successfully manipulate demons too and not every encounter leads to awful things.

And you just proved my point. Merrill has alot of pride, the demon she was talking with was a pride demon. You really think it would not have blacklashed? People who can retrain themselfs from demons are people who can control there desires, pride ect. Merrill says it right out, she will do anything to help her people, that's not the attitude you want to have with a pride demon.

So.... you are only strong if you choose to not deal with a demon?  That really makes no sense.  She knows of only one way to cleanse the artifcat and help her people regain important lost knoweldge.  She spends years researching this and taking the necessary precautions.  She knows she is taking a dangerous step and is still willing to exile herself, risk her life, and potentially risk her love for this cause.  That does not make her weak just because she decides to make a deal.

And despite some's insistence that the first fade encounter should make you distrust Merrill, I was actually heartened by the fact that she was exposed in a more controlled setting and then had to come to terms with it.  That made her even stronger and more wise on what could happen.  She wasn't going into the matter blind anymore.  I'm sure that event is discussed in great detail during the time skip between her and Hawke.  Of course, I'm sure all of you detractors would simply turn around and call her a mary sue if she didn't fall to temptation in the fade... the poor lass just can't win respect from you people.

[jlb524]

Mr.House wrote...
And you just proved my point. Merrill has alot of pride, the demon she was talking with was a pride demon. You really think it would not have blacklashed?

We don't know as she never was given the chance to try.  The thing is, people assume it would have been a failure without a doubt and I cannot agree with that.

Mr.House wrote...
People who can retrain themselfs from demons are people who can control there desires, pride ect. Merrill says it right out, she will do anything to help her people, that's not the attitude you want to have with a pride demon.

This isn't about the Fade thing again, is it?  Dealing with demons in the Fade isn't the same as dealing with them outside of it.

[Kartikeya]

jlb524 wrote...

Kartikeya wrote...

Strawman arguments are not helpful.

No, maybe you should respect that guns and bombs are both destructive, dangerous things, and that one being more destructive than the other doesn't mean that you should ignore the lesser danger or that the lesser danger is not still, you know, dangerous.

Demons are dangerous. People can be dangerous. One does not cancel out the other.

I've never said they cancel out.  My point was to bring up the hypocrisy of dealing with humans in spite the risk (totally okay) vs. dealing with demons in spite of the risk (totally not okay and crazy!).

And my point is humans are potentially dangerous while every single time a demon expresses what they want, it involves someone, somewhere, getting possessed or dead or fed off of. Demon personalities lie within one single trait. You don't get Rage demons that are calm and reasonable beings who just want to hang out and play some Halo.

Humans are capable of more destruction, sure. Humans do not have their entire existence focused entirely on said destruction to the exclusion of absolutely everything else (however much various media wants to go 'zomg humans suck' all the time). Further, humans/elves/dwarves are kind've familiar with their own species. Humans/elves/dwarves are not spirits, but seems to like making the mistake of assuming that spirits are just like them.

[The Baconer]

jlb524 wrote...
The destruction I've seen demons do just doesn't compare with what humans are capable of doing to each other.  The thing is, demons don't organize and form governments or systems of oppression.   They don't create armies to send out of the Fade in order to possess as many humans as possible.  If they did this, then they would be really dangerous.    They don't....demons/fade spirits seem to be loners.  Even if a group of them spill out of the Fade and attack you, they don't form a cohesive squad...they just blindly attack. 

You're missing my point, which is that demons don't because they quite literally cannot under normal circumstances. A regular person will likely spend most of their day interacting with other humans, but they can't exactly say the same for interacting with demons, because they are in a completely seperate realm, and they can only be released by unordinary means. To put it all on equal footing so that we can test the theory that humans are more dangerous on average than demons, we need an environment where the probability of interacting with a demon and the probability of interacting with a human are the same. We can do this by sundering the veil, and considering the examples I listed, what does the evidence produced by those events seem to imply?

And as for demons being unable to organize, our adventure in the Fade back in DA:O revealed that demons do indeed form hierarchies, and indeed have power struggles. Torpor in DAII alone is evidence that demons are as territorial and power hungry in the fade as the mortal races are in Thedas.

Kabraxal wrote...

I'm sure that event is discussed in great detail during the time skip
between her and Hawke.  Of course, I'm sure all of you detractors would
simply turn around and call her a mary sue if she didn't fall to
temptation in the fade... the poor lass just can't win respect from you
people.

Now you're just grasping at straws. My opinion of her character and her actions is based off of evidence we're given in the game. We're not given anything that implies she's more experienced and savyy when dealing with demons. Blame the writing for that, not us.

Modifié par The Baconer, 01 avril 2011 - 11:08 .

[Kartikeya]

Kaigen42 wrote...

And I object to the assumption that because we don't know, we should assume that Marethari is correct and Merrill is wrong.

And I agree with you.

Kaigen42 wrote...

And boiling it down to "Merrill is stupid, heartless, naive, arrogant, and completely to blame for Marethari deciding to become an abomination (which was the best possible course of action), and also to blame for her clan deciding down to every last person to try to kill her" also ignores the point of the tragedy. The tragedy is that Marethari and Merrill are both stubborn and refuse to consider the other person's point of view, and the clan takes Marethari's argument so to heart that they see Merrill as a greater threat than any demon or monster. Marethari refuses to believe that Merrill can handle the risks, even with help, and so refuses that help without any kind of explanation. She then warns the clan so strenuously that they will run from a non-threatening Merrill into mortal danger. Her refusal to believe that what Merrill wants to accomplish is possible goes so far that she triggers the very tragedy she wants to prevent and then some. Merrill stubbornly refuses to give up repairing the Eluvian despite the fact that it isolates her from the very people she's trying to help and believes that it may well kill her in the process.

Marethari and Merrill are both full of Pride and hubris, and that is the cause of this tragedy surrounding a demon of, fittingly enough, pride. If Marethari had been willing to offer a better explanation instead of simply telling Merrill "It's better left buried," would Merrill have listened? If Merrill had looked for another way to fix the Eluvian besides dealing with demons and blood magic, would Marethari have consented to help her? That's not how the story worked out, that's not who those characters are/were.

I'm willing to admit Merrill's pride. I'm willing to admit that Merrill is too willing to deal with demons and too unwilling to break deals with them. What I'm not willing to do is blame Merrill for Marethari's hubris. Marethari is the one who choose to definitely become an abomination as opposed to risking the possibility. And Marethari is the one who poisoned the clan towards Merrill to the point that they see a misguided youth as capable of any evil without any other evidence. Think about it, do we have any evidence that Merrill has ever hurt a member of her clan? That she has used one of their blood for her magic, or summoned a demon into the camp who then went on a rampage? She has engaged in risky behavior to be sure, but has that actually hurt the clan in any way? I can't even think of an instance of her using harsh language at them, much less physical or supernatural violence. And yet, based purely on Marethari's say-so, they were willing to make her a pariah, Pol was willing to run into mortal danger, and they were willing to fight to the last person to try to kill her. I'm not willing to blame Merrill for that either.

And I pretty much agree with you here too.

[jlb524]

Kartikeya wrote...

And my point is humans are potentially dangerous while every single time a demon expresses what they want, it involves someone, somewhere, getting possessed or dead or fed off of. Demon personalities lie within one single trait. You don't get Rage demons that are calm and reasonable beings who just want to hang out and play some Halo.

That would make demons predictable and their threat obviously known.  Which is why I think the potentially dangerous humans are worse as you never know what to expect nor do you know when they will stab you in the back....

Kartikeya wrote...
Humans are capable of more destruction, sure. Humans do not have their entire existence focused entirely on said destruction to the exclusion of absolutely everything else (however much various media wants to go 'zomg humans suck' all the time). Further, humans/elves/dwarves are kind've familiar with their own species. Humans/elves/dwarves are not spirits, but seems to like making the mistake of assuming that spirits are just like them.

Of course...that's why you treat them as what they are...dangerous Fade Spirts that lack the complexity of elves/humans/etc.   There's no indication that Merrill didn't do this or wouldn't do this.

[jlb524]

The Baconer wrote...

You're missing my point, which is that demons don't because they quite literally cannot under normal circumstances. A regular person will likely spend most of their day interacting with other humans, but they can't exactly say the same for interacting with demons, because they are in a completely seperate realm, and they can only be released by unordinary means. To put it all on equal footing so that we can test the theory that humans are more dangerous on average than demons, we need an environment where the probability of interacting with a demon and the probability of interacting with a human are the same. We can do this by sundering the veil, and considering the examples I listed, what does the evidence produced by those events seem to imply?

I don't know..we'd have to test it.  A single demon is more powerful than an average human, however, humans have the advantage in that they have much better tactics and form armies. 

The Baconer wrote...
And as for demons being unable to organize, our adventure in the Fade back in DA:O revealed that demons do indeed form hierarchies, and indeed have power struggles. Torpor in DAII alone is evidence that demons are as territorial and power hungry in the fade as the mortal races are in Thedas.

Do they form alliances and organize against the others?  Do they have politics? Or, is it more like the strongest wins?

[Darth Krytie]

jlb524 wrote...


That would make demons predictable and their threat obviously known.  Which is why I think the potentially dangerous humans are worse as you never know what to expect nor do you know when they will stab you in the back....

How are humans worse? There's a better than decent chance you'll get a favourable outcome in your dealings than with a demon, which the end result will always be bad. For someone, at least.

With humanity you can, and often do, get a different result than someone dying.

[The Baconer]

jlb524 wrote...
I don't know..we'd have to test it.  A single demon is more powerful than an average human, however, humans have the advantage in that they have much better tactics and form armies.

This isn't about which of the two would win in a fight, it's about whether demons or the mortal races are more inherently destructive on average. Evidence seems to point to the former.

Do they form alliances and organize against the others?  Do they have politics? Or, is it more like the strongest wins?

It's about the biggest bully being at the top and the hierarchy working down from there. In other words, much like the politics of Kirkwall without the guise of formality.

[Kabraxal]

The Baconer wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
The destruction I've seen demons do just doesn't compare with what humans are capable of doing to each other.  The thing is, demons don't organize and form governments or systems of oppression.   They don't create armies to send out of the Fade in order to possess as many humans as possible.  If they did this, then they would be really dangerous.    They don't....demons/fade spirits seem to be loners.  Even if a group of them spill out of the Fade and attack you, they don't form a cohesive squad...they just blindly attack. 

You're missing my point, which is that demons don't because they quite literally cannot under normal circumstances. A regular person will likely spend most of their day interacting with other humans, but they can't exactly say the same for interacting with demons, because they are in a completely seperate realm, and they can only be released by unordinary means. To put it all on equal footing so that we can test the theory that humans are more dangerous on average than demons, we need an environment where the probability of interacting with a demon and the probability of interacting with a human are the same. We can do this by sundering the veil, and considering the examples I listed, what does the evidence produced by those events seem to imply?

And as for demons being unable to organize, our adventure in the Fade back in DA:O revealed that demons do indeed form hierarchies, and indeed have power struggles. Torpor in DAII alone is evidence that demons are as territorial and power hungry in the fade as the mortal races are in Thedas.

Kabraxal wrote...

I'm sure that event is discussed in great detail during the time skip
between her and Hawke.  Of course, I'm sure all of you detractors would
simply turn around and call her a mary sue if she didn't fall to
temptation in the fade... the poor lass just can't win respect from you
people.

Now you're just grasping at straws. My opinion of her character and her actions is based off of evidence we're given in the game. We're not given anything that implies she's more experienced and savyy when dealing with demons. Blame the writing for that, not us.

And so is mine.  Yet mine doesn't count in your eyes.  How dare she deal with demons despite proof that it has worked elsewhere?  How dare she deal with demons after years of research and prepearation?  How dare she deal with demons despite bringing along people to kill her should it end badly?  How dare she try to do everything right why the keeper interferes stupidly?

There is more than enough evidence to support Merrill's endeavour.  But o, the in game evidence might not fully suppport only your opinion so quick!  DISMISS IT!

And like a few others, I am not saying she would have suceeded or failed with any certainty.  I side more towards success, even if it isn't as grande as she hopes.  I still recognise the dangers and wonder, but I support the careful plan she had set forth.  Sadly, we didn't get the chance to see how all her hard work and preparation for the event.

And if you would notice, most of us have issue with Merrill getting blamed for the Keeper's stupid actions.  If the Keeper had kept her head and not been an interfering fool that seemed to take no precautions in her dealings with the demon, then we would actually be able to finally see if Merrill had chosen poorly.

And funny... The Keeper does exactly what many accuse Merrill of doing yet most blame Merrill only and call her the fool.  At least be consistent with your logic people!

[Bayz]

Aberrations seem to be less dangerous (as in destructive) than Darkspawn...then it's Flemmeth