377 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

Darth Krytie wrote...

How are humans worse? There's a better than decent chance you'll get a favourable outcome in your dealings than with a demon, which the end result will always be bad. For someone, at least.

With humanity you can, and often do, get a different result than someone dying.

Of course....but I'm thinking humans are worse b/c of scale....when it goes bad, it goes really bad. 

I'm just against the notion that anyone that takes the risk to deal with demons is nutso.   For starters, the deal could possibly end up as being beneficial to the person.  Second, there are other things besides demons that pose a danger....should they all be avoided too?  Is one crazy for taking the risk?

[Kartikeya]

jlb524 wrote...

Kartikeya wrote...

And my point is humans are potentially dangerous while every single time a demon expresses what they want, it involves someone, somewhere, getting possessed or dead or fed off of. Demon personalities lie within one single trait. You don't get Rage demons that are calm and reasonable beings who just want to hang out and play some Halo.

That would make demons predictable and their threat obviously known.  Which is why I think the potentially dangerous humans are worse as you never know what to expect nor do you know when they will stab you in the back....

Kartikeya wrote...
Humans are capable of more destruction, sure. Humans do not have their entire existence focused entirely on said destruction to the exclusion of absolutely everything else (however much various media wants to go 'zomg humans suck' all the time). Further, humans/elves/dwarves are kind've familiar with their own species. Humans/elves/dwarves are not spirits, but seems to like making the mistake of assuming that spirits are just like them.

Of course...that's why you treat them as what they are...dangerous Fade Spirts that lack the complexity of elves/humans/etc.   There's no indication that Merrill didn't do this or wouldn't do this.

I agree with everything except your last sentence. Oh, Merrill says she knows they're dangerous. She says that a lot. Saying something and actually believing it are two different things. Every talk I saw with Merrill on this subject suggested otherwise. Oh sure, she believes they're dangerous. But all spirits are dangerous, so spirits specifically embodying destructive traits, eh. No reason to think those are more dangerous than the others. They know interesting things. They can provide help. I have a vague recollection of her saying, at one point, that the Pride demon was 'nice'.

Pride demons are never ever ever ever 'nice'. They're pride demons. If it's being nice to you, it's because it thinks being nice to you will get you what it wants, not because it's actually just a kindhearted soul. It's manipulating you. How is it manipulating you? Because well, see, you have found the exception, and you are smart enough to outsmart if it it turns out to actually be like every other pride demon ever encountered in the history of ever. You aren't going to fall victim to pride because you are well trained and know what you're doing and very capable of handling such dangers. You are in control of this situation and can dictate the outcome if you're clever enough. And of course you are clever enough. Those other people who fell victim to this kind of thing weren't smart enough/prepared enough/trained enough/strong enough. You are.

Because that doesn't play straight into any demon's proverbial hands, or anything.

[Bayz]

@jlb524

Depends on individual humans and demons I think.

I mean a deal with let's say...Loghain or Anoa isn't going to get much different than a deal with a Pride demon...

Modifié par Bayz, 01 avril 2011 - 11:31 .

[jlb524]

The Baconer wrote...

This isn't about which of the two would win in a fight, it's about whether demons or the mortal races are more inherently destructive on average. Evidence seems to point to the former.

And how do you plan on measuring that fairly?  I don't think unleashing all the Fade spirts into the mortal realm as a way to measure that makes any sense.

[Kabraxal]

jlb524 wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

This isn't about which of the two would win in a fight, it's about whether demons or the mortal races are more inherently destructive on average. Evidence seems to point to the former.

And how do you plan on measuring that fairly?  I don't think unleashing all the Fade spirts into the mortal realm as a way to measure that makes any sense.

We have some evidence in DAO that humans are worse... Loghain brings more death and destruction about himself than the demons that break out in the circle.  And what's worse... there were people that sanctioned his actions whereas most will not sanction a rampaging demon.

Not only is one human worse than Uldred and his minions, but he has the sad trait of evil humans that can draw others to his cause in great numbers.

[The Baconer]

Kabraxal wrote...
And so is mine.  Yet mine doesn't count in your eyes.  How dare she deal with demons despite proof that it has worked elsewhere?

Indeed? When has a non player-controlled character done that, exactly?

How dare she deal with demons after years of research and prepearation?

What research and preparations? You mean the ones that teach about the treachoury of demons that she promptly ignores?

How dare she deal with demons despite bringing along people to kill her should it end badly?

Right, how responsible of her to knowingly endanger her friends for a cause they have no stake in. 

There is more than enough evidence to support Merrill's endeavour.  But o, the in game evidence might not fully suppport only your opinion so quick!  DISMISS IT!

I can't dismiss what was never brought to me in the first place.

And like a few others, I am not saying she would have suceeded or failed with any certainty.  I side more towards success, even if it isn't as grande as she hopes.  I still recognise the dangers and wonder, but I support the careful plan she had set forth.  Sadly, we didn't get the chance to see how all her hard work and preparation for the event.

She had no plan. Whenever she hit an obstacle in restoring the Eluvian, she quickly runs to others for assistance, whether it be Hawke, the Keeper, or the Pride Demon. The only plans in motion here are the machinations of the demon.

And if you would notice, most of us have issue with Merrill getting blamed for the Keeper's stupid actions.  If the Keeper had kept her head and not been an interfering fool that seemed to take no precautions in her dealings with the demon, then we would actually be able to finally see if Merrill had chosen poorly.

And funny... The Keeper does exactly what many accuse Merrill of doing yet most blame Merrill only and call her the fool.  At least be consistent with your logic people!

I wouldn't say either one of them is more in the right. Earlier on, perhaps, but not by Act 3.

[jlb524]

Kartikeya wrote...

I agree with everything except your last sentence. Oh, Merrill says she knows they're dangerous. She says that a lot. Saying something and actually believing it are two different things. Every talk I saw with Merrill on this subject suggested otherwise. Oh sure, she believes they're dangerous. But all spirits are dangerous, so spirits specifically embodying destructive traits, eh. No reason to think those are more dangerous than the others. They know interesting things. They can provide help. I have a vague recollection of her saying, at one point, that the Pride demon was 'nice'.

Do you honestly think she seriously did not believe the Pride demon was dangerous?  It seems to me she took a lot of precautions when dealing with the thing.  I didn't take her 'nice' comment literally.

Kartikeya wrote...
Pride demons are never ever ever ever 'nice'. They're pride demons. If it's being nice to you, it's because it thinks being nice to you will get you what it wants, not because it's actually just a kindhearted soul. It's manipulating you. How is it manipulating you? Because well, see, you have found the exception, and you are smart enough to outsmart if it it turns out to actually be like every other pride demon ever encountered in the history of ever. You aren't going to fall victim to pride because you are well trained and know what you're doing and very capable of handling such dangers. You are in control of this situation and can dictate the outcome if you're clever enough. And of course you are clever enough. Those other people who fell victim to this kind of thing weren't smart enough/prepared enough/trained enough/strong enough. You are.

Because that doesn't play straight into any demon's proverbial hands, or anything.

Yes, that's how they work.  I still can't say for a fact that Merrill would have fallen prey to it or wasn't preparing herself during those 7 years.

[Darth Krytie]

jlb524 wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

How are humans worse? There's a better than decent chance you'll get a favourable outcome in your dealings than with a demon, which the end result will always be bad. For someone, at least.

With humanity you can, and often do, get a different result than someone dying.

Of course....but I'm thinking humans are worse b/c of scale....when it goes bad, it goes really bad. 

I'm just against the notion that anyone that takes the risk to deal with demons is nutso.   For starters, the deal could possibly end up as being beneficial to the person.  Second, there are other things besides demons that pose a danger....should they all be avoided too?  Is one crazy for taking the risk?

And whenever someone becomes an abomination, they can wreak hella destruction.  Yes, the deal can be beneficial to that one person, but what about other people? Why should some other hapless fool pay because this other dude decided to make a deal with the demon? The Warden/Hawke can make deals with demons, but other people always pay. Ergo, making a deal with a demon is not only nutso, but selfish and disregards the safety of others.

I think if the other things that pose a danger ALWAYS pose a danger, then yes. If there's no other way for it to end but in someone's death and destruction, then yes. If there's a chance that your diecision to take a risk and it ends not only beneficially for the person taking the risk, but does not endanger anyone else, then go for it.

My problem with the notion that dealing with Demons is okay in some circumstances is that, if left to their own devices, will always end up harming someone. To ignore that in favour of a benefit you receive is tantamount to getting money to let a serial killer out of jail so he can continue killing in peace.

[Camenae]

Kartikeya wrote...

I agree with everything except your last sentence. Oh, Merrill says she knows they're dangerous. She says that a lot. Saying something and actually believing it are two different things. Every talk I saw with Merrill on this subject suggested otherwise. Oh sure, she believes they're dangerous. But all spirits are dangerous, so spirits specifically embodying destructive traits, eh. No reason to think those are more dangerous than the others. They know interesting things. They can provide help. I have a vague recollection of her saying, at one point, that the Pride demon was 'nice'.

Pride demons are never ever ever ever 'nice'. They're pride demons. If it's being nice to you, it's because it thinks being nice to you will get you what it wants, not because it's actually just a kindhearted soul. It's manipulating you. How is it manipulating you? Because well, see, you have found the exception, and you are smart enough to outsmart if it it turns out to actually be like every other pride demon ever encountered in the history of ever. You aren't going to fall victim to pride because you are well trained and know what you're doing and very capable of handling such dangers. You are in control of this situation and can dictate the outcome if you're clever enough. And of course you are clever enough. Those other people who fell victim to this kind of thing weren't smart enough/prepared enough/trained enough/strong enough. You are.

Because that doesn't play straight into any demon's proverbial hands, or anything.

Agree, agree, 100% agree with this.  Thank you.

[LobselVith8]

The Baconer wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...
And so is mine.  Yet mine doesn't count in your eyes.  How dare she deal with demons despite proof that it has worked elsewhere?

Indeed? When has a non player-controlled character done that, exactly?

We have non-PC characters dealing with demons, like every single Harrowing over the past 930 years where the Chantry controlled Circle put a demon into a mage to test them.

[Kabraxal]

The Baconer wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...
And so is mine.  Yet mine doesn't count in your eyes.  How dare she deal with demons despite proof that it has worked elsewhere?

Indeed? When has a non player-controlled character done that, exactly?

How dare she deal with demons after years of research and prepearation?

What research and preparations? You mean the ones that teach about the treachoury of demons that she promptly ignores?

How dare she deal with demons despite bringing along people to kill her should it end badly?

Right, how responsible of her to knowingly endanger her friends for a cause they have no stake in. 

There is more than enough evidence to support Merrill's endeavour.  But o, the in game evidence might not fully suppport only your opinion so quick!  DISMISS IT!

I can't dismiss what was never brought to me in the first place.

And like a few others, I am not saying she would have suceeded or failed with any certainty.  I side more towards success, even if it isn't as grande as she hopes.  I still recognise the dangers and wonder, but I support the careful plan she had set forth.  Sadly, we didn't get the chance to see how all her hard work and preparation for the event.

She had no plan. Whenever she hit an obstacle in restoring the Eluvian, she quickly runs to others for assistance, whether it be Hawke, the Keeper, or the Pride Demon. The only plans in motion here are the machinations of the demon.

And if you would notice, most of us have issue with Merrill getting blamed for the Keeper's stupid actions.  If the Keeper had kept her head and not been an interfering fool that seemed to take no precautions in her dealings with the demon, then we would actually be able to finally see if Merrill had chosen poorly.

And funny... The Keeper does exactly what many accuse Merrill of doing yet most blame Merrill only and call her the fool.  At least be consistent with your logic people!

I wouldn't say either one of them is more in the right. Earlier on, perhaps, but not by Act 3.

So you can't make the simple logical deduction, that she worked with the mirror for years and then came to Hawke when the only way left to her was to get the hammer and clear the taint?  Or did you ignore when she constantly discusses demons and spirits with other squad mates, showing a fair amount of knowledge?  Or did you ignore when she blatantly tells Hawke she believes in herself, but just in case I fail, come with me and kill me so I don't hurt anyone?

So basically your only response is to again wave the 7 years of prepearations and discussions and outright saying that Hawke is coming to kill her if iit fails?

Don't know why I expected an actual attempt at a reasonable debate.

[Vormaerin]

Wait... because people whose careers are built on the application of violence (the Warden, the Champion) primarily encounter situations involving demons that are violent, it necessarily follows that all demons are violent?

Demons are certainly parasitic...they as much as say so. So is Justice and the thing in Wynne. But there's no requirement that overwheening pride or egregious desire has to be violent and destructive. A Desire demon doesn't care WHAT you desire, just that you desire it strongly enough to provide it sustenance. There are probably a lot of Desire demons living out Tower templar type fantasies that we never meet.

The main restriction on Demons seems to be that its hard to actually meet one unless you are a mage. And mages have so much power already that only whacked out schemes really require more.

[The Baconer]

jlb524 wrote...

And how do you plan on measuring that fairly?  I don't think unleashing all the Fade spirts into the mortal realm as a way to measure that makes any sense.

Creating an environment where the interactions between Fade residents and the residents of the Mortal realm is about as fair as it can get.

Kabraxal wrote...

We have some evidence in DAO that humans are worse... Loghain brings
more death and destruction about himself than the demons that break out
in the circle.  And what's worse... there were people that sanctioned
his actions whereas most will not sanction a rampaging demon.

Not
only is one human worse than Uldred and his minions, but he has the sad
trait of evil humans that can draw others to his cause in great
numbers.

Again, that's not a fair comparison. Uldred and the other demons were contained, and confined, to the circle tower. Loghain had an entire country to run around and many more resources at his disposal.

[Kabraxal]

The Baconer wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

And how do you plan on measuring that fairly?  I don't think unleashing all the Fade spirts into the mortal realm as a way to measure that makes any sense.

Creating an environment where the interactions between Fade residents and the residents of the Mortal realm is about as fair as it can get.

Kabraxal wrote...

We have some evidence in DAO that humans are worse... Loghain brings
more death and destruction about himself than the demons that break out
in the circle.  And what's worse... there were people that sanctioned
his actions whereas most will not sanction a rampaging demon.

Not
only is one human worse than Uldred and his minions, but he has the sad
trait of evil humans that can draw others to his cause in great
numbers.

Again, that's not a fair comparison. Uldred and the other demons were contained, and confined, to the circle tower. Loghain had an entire country to run around and many more resources at his disposal.

So, the fact that a horde of powerful demons is contained while a cruel tryant is allowed to roam free isn't proof enough that humans are far more dangerous.............................................................

[AlexXIV]

She is as selfish as any other of your companions. I mean everyone seems to use Hawke all the time to solve their problems and nobody even ever listens. I don't think I would actually befriend such characters in real life, with the only exception being Varric.

[Kartikeya]

jlb524 wrote...

Do you honestly think she seriously did not believe the Pride demon was dangerous?  It seems to me she took a lot of precautions when dealing with the thing.  I didn't take her 'nice' comment literally.

She believed it was dangerous and that she was in control of the situation. I would argue this means that she did not believe it was dangerous enough.

Her precautions involved bringing people along to put her down if she went abomination. Her precautions did not involve listening to anyone who suggested that maybe she wasn't being cautious enough, or maybe this whole thing was, perhaps, not a good idea. I don't mean that she listened and then considered what was said and then decided to go ahead anyway. She shuts down anyone who says anything like that. She does not give their words a second thought. If she's open to second guesses, it's only her own, and her conclusions are always the same because the only input she's accepting is her own input, or input that agrees with her conclusions.

When you're dealing with a creature that manipulates in this way, especially one specifically dealing with pride, this is a bad bad bad bad bad bad extremely unwise attitude to take. It plays straight into the demon's machinations, because it only helps the demon if you think that you're in control and that you can outsmart it, and that anyone who suggests differently is automatically wrong. That's not taking the proper precautions. Honestly, I'm not sure what precautions you could reasonable take in this situation, other than asking someone you trust to slap you over the head any time you start professing that you know exactly what you're doing and you're fully in control, and making sure that person is never exposed to the demon themselves. But that would require that you maintain enough presence of mind that you're willing to listen to this person when you're going too far.

[The Baconer]

Kabraxal wrote...
So you can't make the simple logical deduction, that she worked with the mirror for years and then came to Hawke when the only way left to her was to get the hammer and clear the taint?

That still doesn't imply she had some sort of grand scheme. She says the arulin'holm was supposed to be the last piece she needed. It didn't finish the job, and she didn't know how to finish it, so she goes back to the demon.

Or did you ignore when she constantly discusses demons and spirits with other squad mates, showing a fair amount of knowledge?

That sure helped her during the Fade quest didn't it?

Or did you ignore when she blatantly tells Hawke she believes in herself, but just in case I fail, come with me and kill me so I don't hurt anyone?

Of course she believes in herself, she always thinks she's right. Again, I don't see how that should point to her having a plan in mind.

So basically your only response is to again wave the 7 years of prepearations and discussions and outright saying that Hawke is coming to kill her if iit fails? Don't know why I expected an actual attempt at a reasonable debate.

We're never shown any preparations, I'm not waving anything.

So, the fact that a horde of powerful demons is contained while a cruel
tryant is allowed to roam free isn't proof enough that humans are far
more
dangerous.............................................................

Imagine instead that Loghain is promptly arrested and imprisoned upon his arrival in Denerim, and on the flipside, the Templars open the towers doors and let all the demons run free, do you think that would be a fair comparison?

Modifié par The Baconer, 02 avril 2011 - 12:03 .

[Vormaerin]

Kartikeya wrote...



She believed it was dangerous and that she was in control of the situation. I would argue this means that she did not believe it was dangerous enough.

Your argument boils down to "its never ever justified".  There's no amount of preparation, knowledge, power, etc she could have that would convince you she is competent to handle this situation, is there?

Even if that is true, she put a lot more thought, preparation, and care into the situation than any other mage in the game.  Certainly far more than Marethari or Anders ever dreamed of doing.

[jlb524]

Kartikeya wrote...

Her precautions involved bringing people along to put her down if she went abomination. Her precautions did not involve listening to anyone who suggested that maybe she wasn't being cautious enough, or maybe this whole thing was, perhaps, not a good idea. I don't mean that she listened and then considered what was said and then decided to go ahead anyway. She shuts down anyone who says anything like that. She does not give their words a second thought. If she's open to second guesses, it's only her own, and her conclusions are always the same because the only input she's accepting is her own input, or input that agrees with her conclusions.

So, what extra precautions should she have taken besides not dealing with demons in the first place?

Kartikeya wrote...
When you're dealing with a creature that manipulates in this way, especially one specifically dealing with pride, this is a bad bad bad bad bad bad extremely unwise attitude to take. It plays straight into the demon's machinations, because it only helps the demon if you think that you're in control and that you can outsmart it, and that anyone who suggests differently is automatically wrong. That's not taking the proper precautions. Honestly, I'm not sure what precautions you could reasonable take in this situation, other than asking someone you trust to slap you over the head any time you start professing that you know exactly what you're doing and you're fully in control, and making sure that person is never exposed to the demon themselves. But that would require that you maintain enough presence of mind that you're willing to listen to this person when you're going too far.

Did she think she could outsmart it though?  Merrill was definitely stubborn in her resolve to get the mirror fixed and yeah, she didn't want to listen to those that told her not to do it when the only reason they could give really was that 'demons are bad'.  This doesn't translate into her thinking she would definitely outsmart the demon...she knew there was a potential risk to her own life but she thought it was worth it.  If she didn't think this, she wouldn't have taken any precautions nor would she have asked Hawke to come along just in case the plan failed.  She would have faced the demon alone and probably much sooner than when she did.

[Kartikeya]

Vormaerin wrote...

Kartikeya wrote...



She believed it was dangerous and that she was in control of the situation. I would argue this means that she did not believe it was dangerous enough.

Your argument boils down to "its never ever justified".  There's no amount of preparation, knowledge, power, etc she could have that would convince you she is competent to handle this situation, is there?

Even if that is true, she put a lot more thought, preparation, and care into the situation than any other mage in the game.  Certainly far more than Marethari or Anders ever dreamed of doing.

Correction, my argument boils down to 'it's never ever safe' and that if you think you're in control, you probably aren't. This extends to anyone, not just Merrill. Whether or not you should still do it or not, I'm not commenting on in those posts. My point is her assurance that she is in control, can handle it, knows what she's doing, will be the only one hurt by it, and so on, are all exactly what the demon wants her to think, because it makes her easier to manipulate.

[Kartikeya]

jlb524 wrote...

Did she think she could outsmart it though?  Merrill was definitely stubborn in her resolve to get the mirror fixed and yeah, she didn't want to listen to those that told her not to do it when the only reason they could give really was that 'demons are bad'.  This doesn't translate into her thinking she would definitely outsmart the demon...she knew there was a potential risk to her own life but she thought it was worth it.  If she didn't think this, she wouldn't have taken any precautions nor would she have asked Hawke to come along just in case the plan failed.  She would have faced the demon alone and probably much sooner than when she did.

I don't know if she did or not. There are people arguing in these threads that she could or would. I don't remember any suggestion from Merrill herself that she didn't intend to fulfill her part of the bargain with the demon.

She did, however, believe she was in control of the situation. Firmly. Absolutely. There was no chance that she was not. What I think is tripping people up is they assume that by asking Hawke to come along, she's admitting she's not in control, but express doubt in that conversation, and listen to what she says and how she reacts. Asking Hawke to come along is her precaution. And because she's taking that precaution, she believes she's in control. Believing you're in control in this case doesn't mean believing you're infallible. It means you believe you can control all the possible consequences of the things you do. If she succeeds, she succeeds, and she was right. If she fails and becomes an abomination, Hawke is there to kill her, so she was still right, because she declared she was going to be the only one to suffer any consequences from this course of action, and therefore she is still in control.

But she's not in control. She can't control how other people react. The lesson with Pol wasn't that she was responsible, but that people will react to her decisions in ways that she can't dictate or predict. So she can't dictate that she'll be the only one affected, because people can and will respond in their own way. Her decisions have an effect on the people around her.

[The Baconer]

LobselVith8 wrote...

We have non-PC characters dealing with demons, like every single Harrowing over the past 930 years where the Chantry controlled Circle put a demon into a mage to test them.

Irrelevant; this is about character somehow obtaining whatever the demons tempted them with, while at the same time coming away without offering anything on their part.

[jlb524]

If she thought she was absolutely in control, why would she even need Hawke? She shouldn't worry about turning into an abomination if she's that arrogant and absolutely sure she could handle the demon.

[The Baconer]

jlb524 wrote...

If she thought she was absolutely in control, why would she even need Hawke? She shouldn't worry about turning into an abomination if she's that arrogant and absolutely sure she could handle the demon.

She's not confident, she's just determined.

[sphinxess]

Kartikeya wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Did she think she could outsmart it though?  Merrill was definitely stubborn in her resolve to get the mirror fixed and yeah, she didn't want to listen to those that told her not to do it when the only reason they could give really was that 'demons are bad'.  This doesn't translate into her thinking she would definitely outsmart the demon...she knew there was a potential risk to her own life but she thought it was worth it.  If she didn't think this, she wouldn't have taken any precautions nor would she have asked Hawke to come along just in case the plan failed.  She would have faced the demon alone and probably much sooner than when she did.

I don't know if she did or not. There are people arguing in these threads that she could or would. I don't remember any suggestion from Merrill herself that she didn't intend to fulfill her part of the bargain with the demon.

She did, however, believe she was in control of the situation. Firmly. Absolutely. There was no chance that she was not. What I think is tripping people up is they assume that by asking Hawke to come along, she's admitting she's not in control, but express doubt in that conversation, and listen to what she says and how she reacts. Asking Hawke to come along is her precaution. And because she's taking that precaution, she believes she's in control. Believing you're in control in this case doesn't mean believing you're infallible. It means you believe you can control all the possible consequences of the things you do. If she succeeds, she succeeds, and she was right. If she fails and becomes an abomination, Hawke is there to kill her, so she was still right, because she declared she was going to be the only one to suffer any consequences from this course of action, and therefore she is still in control.

But she's not in control. She can't control how other people react. The lesson with Pol wasn't that she was responsible, but that people will react to her decisions in ways that she can't dictate or predict. So she can't dictate that she'll be the only one affected, because people can and will respond in their own way. Her decisions have an effect on the people around her.

Thats basically the same argument as before - instead of its never ever justified no matter the preparaton you make - now its you never can control every outside factor -