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[Kartikeya]

jlb524 wrote...

If she thought she was absolutely in control, why would she even need Hawke? She shouldn't worry about turning into an abomination if she's that arrogant and absolutely sure she could handle the demon.

Exactly for the reasons I laid out. Getting Hawke to take care of the loose ends, as it were, is another means of controlling the situation. Hawke will take care of it, therefore, again, I can make sure that I'm the only one who suffers from this, if anyone is going to suffer at all.

Being in control of a situation doesn't mean you handle absolutely every single thing yourself. It just means you're in control.

[LobselVith8]

The Baconer wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We have non-PC characters dealing with demons, like every single Harrowing over the past 930 years where the Chantry controlled Circle put a demon into a mage to test them.

Irrelevant; this is about character somehow obtaining whatever the demons tempted them with, while at the same time coming away without offering anything on their part.

It doesn't seem that Merrill had to give anything up to learn blood magic, and we don't know what restrictions Audacity was under being in the real world, and imprisoned in the totem. The scenerios where we have the characters or protagonist in the Fade or in the real world don't compare with a demon imprisoned by ancient magic within a statute. If Marethari brought Audacity into her because she was manipulated into thinking that the Eluvian would have been a doorway for Audacity, then it puts into question what risks Merrill might have actually been under if the only risk Marethari thought she was under from Audacity was restoring the Eluvian.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 02 avril 2011 - 12:46 .

[Kartikeya]

sphinxess wrote...

Kartikeya wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Did she think she could outsmart it though?  Merrill was definitely stubborn in her resolve to get the mirror fixed and yeah, she didn't want to listen to those that told her not to do it when the only reason they could give really was that 'demons are bad'.  This doesn't translate into her thinking she would definitely outsmart the demon...she knew there was a potential risk to her own life but she thought it was worth it.  If she didn't think this, she wouldn't have taken any precautions nor would she have asked Hawke to come along just in case the plan failed.  She would have faced the demon alone and probably much sooner than when she did.

I don't know if she did or not. There are people arguing in these threads that she could or would. I don't remember any suggestion from Merrill herself that she didn't intend to fulfill her part of the bargain with the demon.

She did, however, believe she was in control of the situation. Firmly. Absolutely. There was no chance that she was not. What I think is tripping people up is they assume that by asking Hawke to come along, she's admitting she's not in control, but express doubt in that conversation, and listen to what she says and how she reacts. Asking Hawke to come along is her precaution. And because she's taking that precaution, she believes she's in control. Believing you're in control in this case doesn't mean believing you're infallible. It means you believe you can control all the possible consequences of the things you do. If she succeeds, she succeeds, and she was right. If she fails and becomes an abomination, Hawke is there to kill her, so she was still right, because she declared she was going to be the only one to suffer any consequences from this course of action, and therefore she is still in control.

But she's not in control. She can't control how other people react. The lesson with Pol wasn't that she was responsible, but that people will react to her decisions in ways that she can't dictate or predict. So she can't dictate that she'll be the only one affected, because people can and will respond in their own way. Her decisions have an effect on the people around her.

Thats basically the same argument as before - instead of its never ever justified no matter the preparaton you make - now its you never can control every outside factor -

Yes?

Though it's not the same argument. Those are two different arguments from which a similar conclusion can be drawn, IE. that it's possibly not a good idea to deal with demons period, because 1) they're dangerous, always, 2) the belief that you're in control of the situation is exactly what a demon will want you to believe, regardless of reality, and 3) you can never control every outside factor, so insisting than you and only you will ever be affected by your actions is incorrect and naive.

Another possible conclusion of course is 'it's very dangerous to myself and others, but some causes might be worth it, despite the likelihood that I will come out of this worse off'. That would've been a less goodhearted or altruistic attitude for Merrill to take (the needs of the many and all that), but it would have been one closer to reality.

[The Baconer]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It doesn't seem that Merrill had to give anything up to learn blood magic, and we don't know what restrictions Audacity was under being in the real world, and imprisoned in the totem. The scenerios where we have the characters or protagonist in the Fade or in the real world don't compare with a demon imprisoned by ancient magic within a statute. If Marethari brought Audacity into her because she was manipulated into thinking that the Eluvian would have been a doorway for Audacity, then it puts into question what risks Merrill might have actually been under if the only risk Marethari thought she was under from Audacity was restoring the Eluvian.

Could he have not made up a similar story to Merrill if Marethari had not been a vessel instead? That his capacity to assist her in rebuilding the Eluvian was limited by his imprisonment within the totem? Thanks to hindsight, we do know that it was a being of pride, and it did in fact intend to escape it's imprisonment sooner or later.

[jlb524]

Kartikeya wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

If she thought she was absolutely in control, why would she even need Hawke? She shouldn't worry about turning into an abomination if she's that arrogant and absolutely sure she could handle the demon.

Exactly for the reasons I laid out. Getting Hawke to take care of the loose ends, as it were, is another means of controlling the situation. Hawke will take care of it, therefore, again, I can make sure that I'm the only one who suffers from this, if anyone is going to suffer at all.

Being in control of a situation doesn't mean you handle absolutely every single thing yourself. It just means you're in control.

She still doubts that she will be successful in resisting the demon (which is supposed to be the key to being able to resist a Pride Demon, no?).   No matter what, there is still doubt that the situation will be ideal for Merrill...the ideal being she resists the demon and gets its aid.  I can't see how you think she believes she's in complete control when she admits that she could fail and become possessed.

[Vicious]

Ah, the MerrilMancers are in full gear I see.

[Neesa]

Merill asking Hawke to come is just another way she's trying to show you that things will not get out of hand - in other words damage control. "See I can't go around the mountainside killing anyone because you'll put me down." Hawke is meant to regulate, contain, restrain, or hold back the demon. So yes, even after she's dead, Merill expects to control the demon situation.

[LobselVith8]

Neesa wrote...

Merill asking Hawke to come is just another way she's trying to show you that things will not get out of hand - in other words damage control. "See I can't go around the mountainside killing anyone because you'll put me down." Hawke is meant to regulate, contain, restrain, or hold back the demon. So yes, even after she's dead, Merill expects to control the demon situation.

If Hawke is meant to kill her the moment she becomes an abomination, I'm not certain how that's a bad thing.

[christrek1982]

her rivalry path makes more sence anyway or is it just me liking it better

[sphinxess]

The Baconer wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
It doesn't seem that Merrill had to give anything up to learn blood magic, and we don't know what restrictions Audacity was under being in the real world, and imprisoned in the totem. The scenerios where we have the characters or protagonist in the Fade or in the real world don't compare with a demon imprisoned by ancient magic within a statute. If Marethari brought Audacity into her because she was manipulated into thinking that the Eluvian would have been a doorway for Audacity, then it puts into question what risks Merrill might have actually been under if the only risk Marethari thought she was under from Audacity was restoring the Eluvian.

Could he have not made up a similar story to Merrill if Marethari had not been a vessel instead? That his capacity to assist her in rebuilding the Eluvian was limited by his imprisonment within the totem? Thanks to hindsight, we do know that it was a being of pride, and it did in fact intend to escape it's imprisonment sooner or later.

Merrill goes to bargain with the demon, she didn't bargain her body the first time there is no evidence she will the second time either. Having the demon convince her he needs to control her body to fix the mirror seems way beyond stupid for a Blood Mage to agree to <Demon runs wild - mirror doesn't get fixed>.  If a bargain can't be made she has other options like going to Tevinter perhaps. It comes down to if you think shes a idiot or not.

<the way Fenris and Anders treat her over the years - they are lucky shes not a evil blood mage>

[Neesa]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Neesa wrote...

Merill asking Hawke to come is just another way she's trying to show you that things will not get out of hand - in other words damage control. "See I can't go around the mountainside killing anyone because you'll put me down." Hawke is meant to regulate, contain, restrain, or hold back the demon. So yes, even after she's dead, Merill expects to control the demon situation.

If Hawke is meant to kill her the moment she becomes an abomination, I'm not certain how that's a bad thing.

I was backing Kartikeya's point that Merill thinks she's in complete control of the demon. By bringing Hawke she's still expecting to control what the demon can do.

Modifié par Neesa, 02 avril 2011 - 01:56 .

[LobselVith8]

christrek1982 wrote...

her rivalry path makes more sence anyway or is it just me liking it better

I liked Friendship more, but I think both are interesting paths. I see Friendship as Hawke showing Merrill that he believes in her. He becomes the first true friend and confidant that she's had, since she seems to have been isolated as the First, with the possible exception of the Dalish protagonist (who otherwise dies because of the corruption if another protagonist becomes the Hero of Ferelden). As a rival, Hawke is pretty much like everyone else who has no confidence in her. IMHO.

[christrek1982]

wow I've never seen a bioware companion cause such a dibate (well mabe tali)

[christrek1982]

LobselVith8 wrote...

christrek1982 wrote...

her rivalry path makes more sence anyway or is it just me liking it better

I liked Friendship more, but I think both are interesting paths. I see Friendship as Hawke showing Merrill that he believes in her. He becomes the first true friend and confidant that she's had, since she seems to have been isolated as the First, with the possible exception of the Dalish protagonist (who otherwise dies because of the corruption if another protagonist becomes the Hero of Ferelden). As a rival, Hawke is pretty much like everyone else who has no confidence in her. IMHO.

far point but I feel that the rivalry path is more hawke trying to look out for her he/she trys to stop her by not giveing her the carving tool not because hawk has no faith in maril after all you can take her side and till suport her in other situasions like with fenris. I think hawke is trying to protect her rather than berate her

[The Baconer]

sphinxess wrote...

Merrill goes to bargain with the demon, she didn't bargain her body the first time there is no evidence she will the second time either. Having the demon convince her he needs to control her body to fix the mirror seems way beyond stupid for a Blood Mage to agree to <Demon runs wild - mirror doesn't get fixed>.  If a bargain can't be made she has other options like going to Tevinter perhaps. It comes down to if you think shes a idiot or not.

<the way Fenris and Anders treat her over the years - they are lucky shes not a evil blood mage>

She was willing to surrender her body in order to reach her goal before in the Fade, and her willingness to quickly return to the demon for help --along with the fact she's not quite confident she won't be possessed-- leads me to believe she won't be particularly adamant against taking a bad deal again.

As they say, fool me once...

[Mnemnosyne]

The idea that you need to think you're not in control in order to resist the pride demon seems absurd. It also seems to go counter to what Irving advises you in DA:O, where he points out that your will is real - if that's not advice to have confidence in yourself and your ability to control the situation, I don't know what is.

Having pride, even a considerable amount of it, does not mean you will automatically fall prey to a pride demon any more than having a desire (which is basically any living thing) means you will fall prey to a desire demon. You simply need to be able to recognize when such a being is manipulating your traits against you.

Dealing with demons is dangerous, but it's clearly not always a bad thing. The Tevinter Imperium is historically acknowledged to have used (and by many sources still does) use demons in many ways, and clearly if every single incidence of such a deal were to have turned out poorly, the practice would have been outlawed even in the Imperium. This clearly shows that it is possible to take sufficient precautions to make such deals reasonably safe.

[Neesa]

Koyasha wrote...
Dealing with demons is dangerous, but it's clearly not always a bad thing. The Tevinter Imperium is historically acknowledged to have used (and by many sources still does) use demons in many ways, and clearly if every single incidence of such a deal were to have turned out poorly, the practice would have been outlawed even in the Imperium. This clearly shows that it is possible to take sufficient precautions to make such deals reasonably safe.

April Fools!

You almost had me there.


Edit: But seriously, safe for who? Obviously not the crap load of slaves or mages who aren't magisters.

Modifié par Neesa, 02 avril 2011 - 02:31 .

[sphinxess]

The Baconer wrote...

sphinxess wrote...

Merrill goes to bargain with the demon, she didn't bargain her body the first time there is no evidence she will the second time either. Having the demon convince her he needs to control her body to fix the mirror seems way beyond stupid for a Blood Mage to agree to <Demon runs wild - mirror doesn't get fixed>.  If a bargain can't be made she has other options like going to Tevinter perhaps. It comes down to if you think shes a idiot or not.

<the way Fenris and Anders treat her over the years - they are lucky shes not a evil blood mage>

She was willing to surrender her body in order to reach her goal before in the Fade, and her willingness to quickly return to the demon for help --along with the fact she's not quite confident she won't be possessed-- leads me to believe she won't be particularly adamant against taking a bad deal again.

As they say, fool me once...

Hard to argue with a encounter where everyone but Hawke and Anders can be possessed - she does say afterwards when she talks to Hawke she has learned something from that encounter and has 5 years to think about it before returning to the mountain

[Kartikeya]

Neesa wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Neesa wrote...

Merill asking Hawke to come is just another way she's trying to show you that things will not get out of hand - in other words damage control. "See I can't go around the mountainside killing anyone because you'll put me down." Hawke is meant to regulate, contain, restrain, or hold back the demon. So yes, even after she's dead, Merill expects to control the demon situation.

If Hawke is meant to kill her the moment she becomes an abomination, I'm not certain how that's a bad thing.

I was backing Kartikeya's point that Merill thinks she's in complete control of the demon. By bringing Hawke she's still expecting to control what the demon can do.

This. Everything people are reading into that point (and it has to be negative?) is kind've them trying to extrapolate a 'therefore this'. Or they're just arguing something completely different with me, I don't know.

Points I've made:

- Dealing with demons is dangerous, often chiefly because people will get this idea into their heads that they can handle it/control it/dictate the outcome/outsmart it/whatever justification can be made based on the person's aptitude. This plays right into a demon's machinations because it's a lot easier to manipulate someone if you let them think they're the ones calling the shots.

- This is especially dangerous when it comes to Pride demons, because they seem to understand it best.

- You cannot ever be fully prepared to deal with a demon. You can't fool yourself into believing that you can account for every possibility. Allowing yourself to do so is in and of itself a lack of preparation. See above points for why.

- You can't possibly control or predict every possible outcome of your actions, especially when it comes to how other people will respond. This is one of Merrill's chief weaknesses, because she absolutely believes she can, and is always hurt and confused when other people react in ways she didn't anticipate.

- Refusing to listen to any and all suggestions or criticisms involving caution or care in your actions plays straight into point number one. Rinse and repeat.

- Merrill is fallible when it comes to demons. As Feynriel's quest proves, everyone is fallible when it comes to demons. Demons are masters at playing to human weakness. Their entire being embodies it.

[Mnemnosyne]

Neesa wrote...

Edit: But seriously, safe for who? Obviously not the crap load of slaves or mages who aren't magisters.

Safe for the magisters that are making use of the demons, of course.  Those who the mage intentionally cares nothing for the safety of don't really count.  In Merrill's case she was trying to make sure everyone was safe, and thus there was no one that filled that equivalent role.

It's also clear that demons can be commanded and forced to do a mage's bidding, either through direct magical control or threats.  Numerous mages use demons as weapons and we don't see the demons having the capacity to turn on them unless they make a mistake, as Avernus did in trying to summon too many of them at once.  Other mages, like Danarius, for instance, clearly seem to have no issue maintaining control of their demons.

We don't know exactly what methods of coersion Merrill had in mind to use on Audacity, since she never got the chance to use them, but she clearly was not intending to offer herself as part of the bargain, even though she acknowledged a risk that she might be overwhelmed.  She may have been intending to threaten or bind.

[VettoRyouzou]

I acutally made a few points over her in a post that was in the wrong forum, never had it moved but figure I'd post it here.

I don’t know if I was the only one who noted this but Marrill and Tali
share many things, Both are girls who surpass in a field but are yet
socially awkward around people, Both would do what ever it take to help
there people and overall one can admit they both sort of gave off the
same vibe when talking to them, Now it not to say there not any
differences for one Tali is used to people being all around her at all
times and get a sense of emptiness on the Normandy were Merrill is quiet
the other way around in the low town of Kirk wall.

Now to get to
the point, as many forum goers know tali is one of the most favored
character in the mass effect universe ((just like everyone else it
seems)). But what does mass effect have to do with Dragon age? Well I
got to looking at them, and got to wondering if perhaps Merrill was made
the way she was for bioware to have some fun with it‘s fans, if perhaps
an odd but quicker nature like talis could make fans over look what she
doing?

It easy to be for the nerdy girl like tali specially
when she has noble cases and can especially be made to work with her
mortal enemy for the sake of the greater good. But Merrill on the other
hand is the quiet little nerdy elf who has grown obsessed with a mirror
that driven her to even use a darker magic path and even be outcast by
her people all for the sake of her obsession, dabbling in demons and
other dark arts all for the sake of her own goals using the guise of
wanting to help her people to drive her actions.

So I guess what
I’m trying to get threw does anyone feel Merrill is part to see if fans
would look past the dark and evil deeds she does for the sake of the
cute quiet girl. Now of cores this is all of my own opinion and not
saying Merrill is just a tali clone in a darker color and was not
created for the roll she played.

It just an odd thing I thought as played threw DA2.

[Torax]

It's been posted and thought about a bit. They both are alone from their people. Though to be fair Merill can still live among other Elves. They both can get sad and kneel while crying about the death of a Parent Figure. Though if you didn't hug Tali, you don't have a soul! Their lives in their final quests are in the hands of the PC. One is to be exiled. The other is at knife point by their clan. They both can have this sort of conversation about the PC seeing past how they look.

Tali wants her home world back. Merrill wants her people's history back. Can argue that if you were really allowed to drive Tali to to go to War with the Geth could kind of be like letting Merrill continue using blood magic. Merrill's story is far darker though. The player is allowed to shelter Tali from any bad result besides the death of her father. This is not the case for Merill, you get to watch almost everything around her crumble except for you and her. Past that the only other contrast is they are different races. Could even argue they are both long time friends with the PC cause it's years between Acts 1 & 2.

[Kartikeya]

While that's an interesting comparison, I think it's kind've doing a disservice to both characters to say that Merrill is pretty much Tali in a new game. Their personalities diverge quite a bit in different directions.

And I don't really agree with the summation of 'nerdy girl'. They're both female, sure. Both young. One of them is a mage who was raised to be the future Keeper of her clan, and was thus trained in magic. Tali is an engineer in a culture that tends to be known for their mechanical ingenuity. They're both talented at something, sure. But I'm kind've of the opinion that 'young woman talented in something' or even 'young woman intellectually bright and talented in something' is rather a very broad category.

Or at least, I'd sure hope so.

[sphinxess]

Kartikeya wrote...

Neesa wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Neesa wrote...

Merill asking Hawke to come is just another way she's trying to show you that things will not get out of hand - in other words damage control. "See I can't go around the mountainside killing anyone because you'll put me down." Hawke is meant to regulate, contain, restrain, or hold back the demon. So yes, even after she's dead, Merill expects to control the demon situation.

If Hawke is meant to kill her the moment she becomes an abomination, I'm not certain how that's a bad thing.

I was backing Kartikeya's point that Merill thinks she's in complete control of the demon. By bringing Hawke she's still expecting to control what the demon can do.

This. Everything people are reading into that point (and it has to be negative?) is kind've them trying to extrapolate a 'therefore this'. Or they're just arguing something completely different with me, I don't know.

Points I've made:

- Dealing with demons is dangerous, often chiefly because people will get this idea into their heads that they can handle it/control it/dictate the outcome/outsmart it/whatever justification can be made based on the person's aptitude. This plays right into a demon's machinations because it's a lot easier to manipulate someone if you let them think they're the ones calling the shots.

- This is especially dangerous when it comes to Pride demons, because they seem to understand it best.

- You cannot ever be fully prepared to deal with a demon. You can't fool yourself into believing that you can account for every possibility. Allowing yourself to do so is in and of itself a lack of preparation. See above points for why.

- You can't possibly control or predict every possible outcome of your actions, especially when it comes to how other people will respond. This is one of Merrill's chief weaknesses, because she absolutely believes she can, and is always hurt and confused when other people react in ways she didn't anticipate.

- Refusing to listen to any and all suggestions or criticisms involving caution or care in your actions plays straight into point number one. Rinse and repeat.

- Merrill is fallible when it comes to demons. As Feynriel's quest proves, everyone is fallible when it comes to demons. Demons are masters at playing to human weakness. Their entire being embodies it.

Yes I see this - everyone acts like their IQ has slipped 100 points in the fade = but the demon Merrill plans to talk to is trapped in a statue - she doesnt have to go into the fade to talk to it - now is that just bad writing and a pride demon can fool the smartest person or is it a mechanic of the fade?

[cglasgow]

I might point out that the DA2 Fade sequence happens inside the dreamscape of a kid who has the mutant powers of 'blur the boundaries between reality and dreams' and 'any demons that possess me get SUPER POWERFUL'.

That might have something to do with how the demons inside Feynriel's head seem extra-able to mind**** people.