377 réponses à ce sujet

[Adanu]

Rifneno wrote...

reservedegotist wrote...

On Merrill, when it comes to her quests, you really just have to believe in her despite her extreme methods for friendship.  For rivaly you have to convince her that her path is too extreme.  And for RP reasons, my warrior/rogue Hawke really doesn't give a crap.  Or he's blinded by romance.

But is there a way to go where you tell her she's so stupid that the Chantry should declare it an official miracle that she survived past age 12 without ever picking up a black mamba and going "this poor cat is so skinny!"?  Because that's the path I want.  The biggest plot hole isn't dead characters appearing or timeline errors, it's the fact Darwinism didn't claim Merrill in about 20 years living in forests full of poisonous flora and deadly predators.  No, seriously, Merrill is beyond belief.  You want to tell me that all the bad mages are slitting their wrists and using their blood for mana everyday without dropping dead from blood loss?  Fine, I'll accept that.  You want me to believe a fully grown adult who doesn't own 3 buckets for drool thinks that a mugging is a "welcome to the neighborhood" greeting?  No, I do not accept that!

*deep breath*  /nerdrage off.

The Dalish have a *very* different way of looking at things and Merrill is socially awkward to an extreme. Just because you are socially versed doesn't mean others are.

[Augustei]

embert1ger wrote...

Does anyone else find it messed up that Merril would rather see her whole clan slaughtered than admit she was wrong and leave peacefully?

Seriously, killing her entire clan gives +10 friendship while leaving them peacefully gives +15 rivalry.  At this point, I'm done trying to appease her stubborn delusions to gain her friendship.  I'm begging to supsect she's been possessed this whole time.

Who says shes wrong? her being wrong is peoples assumption. maybe YOUR wrong in saying shes wrong =P The Mighty Arlathan was conquered so easily because Maleficarum was taken to its extreme.... Maybe Maleficarum is the only answer to the elves getting their strength back.. Cause the way they are treated now isn't good enough. Freedom for elves =D

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 01 avril 2011 - 10:56 .

[Kartikeya]

Torax wrote...

The desire demon in the tower never says she is feeding off him in a way that he would die. Don't forget demons can wield all many powers. A Desire demon kept the Arl from death. It just took the ashes to cure him. You assume a lot from it. I've played it repeatedly. The only death she talks about for them is if the Templar finds him. The symbiotic relationship they have is just her giving him a fake happiness and feeling what is like to mortal though him. A demon could probably keep a single human alive even with out food. Until the demon is killed of course.

She does. I don't remember the dialogue option that triggers it, but something that alludes to 'aren't you feeding off of him?' Her response is basically 'yes, but he's happy and he'll be happy until he's used up. Isn't a short, happy life better than a long terrible one?' She pretty specifically says this. The demon keeping Arl Eamon alive is getting her kicks out of possessing Connor and murderfacing Redcliffe, remember?

Mildly relevant quotes:



Anders[/b]: Why do spirits seek out mages? I've always wondered.
Justice[/b]: You speak of demons. I am not a demon.
Anders[/b]: Aren't demons simply spirits with unique and sparkling personalities?
Justice[/b]: They have been perverted by their desires.
Anders[/b]: But what do they want from mages?
Justice[/b]: Perhaps they wish the same as I: silence. [/list]
Anders[/b]: Are you saying that you could become a demon, Justice?
Justice[/b]: I said no such thing.
Anders[/b]: You said that demons were spirits perverted by their desires.
Justice[/b]: I have no such desires.
Anders[/b]: You must have some desires...
Justice[/b]: I have none! Desist your questions! [/list]
Anders[/b]: I apologize, Justice. I didn't mean to suggest you would become a demon.
Justice[/b]: I should certainly hope not.
Anders[/b]: I just wondered what relation there is between spirits and demons. Demons are a worry to any mage.
Justice[/b]: I do not know what makes demons as they are. Such evil angers me, but I do not understand it.
Anders[/b]: Well, I hope you never come to understand.
Justice[/b]: I as well, mage. More than you could possibly know. [/list]

[Bayz]

Torax wrote...

The desire demon in the tower never says she is feeding off him in a way that he would die. Don't forget demons can wield all many powers. A Desire demon kept the Arl from death. It just took the ashes to cure him. You assume a lot from it. I've played it repeatedly. The only death she talks about for them is if the Templar finds him. The symbiotic relationship they have is just her giving him a fake happiness and feeling what is like to mortal though him. A demon could probably keep a single human alive even with out food. Until the demon is killed of course.

Remember that demon was feeding off Connor, probably to keep the Arl alive as well as cover her needs (like slaughtering the people of Redcliff etc).

Demons (and spirits for that matter *Justice*) are like a cancer.

[TobiTobsen]

Kartikeya wrote...

Torax wrote...

The desire demon in the tower never says she is feeding off him in a way that he would die. Don't forget demons can wield all many powers. A Desire demon kept the Arl from death. It just took the ashes to cure him. You assume a lot from it. I've played it repeatedly. The only death she talks about for them is if the Templar finds him. The symbiotic relationship they have is just her giving him a fake happiness and feeling what is like to mortal though him. A demon could probably keep a single human alive even with out food. Until the demon is killed of course.

She does. I don't remember the dialogue option that triggers it, but something that alludes to 'aren't you feeding off of him?' Her response is basically 'yes, but he's happy and he'll be happy until he's used up. Isn't a short, happy life better than a long terrible one?' She pretty specifically says this. The demon keeping Arl Eamon alive is getting her kicks out of possessing Connor and murderfacing Redcliffe, remember?

Yup... the whole "draining people till they are dead" thing seems to be the normal modus operandi for demons if they don't outright possess you.

[Foolsfolly]

Demons (and spirits for that matter *Justice*) are like a cancer.

I don't know. I've always seen demons as liars not cancer. Dealing with them is simple; they want something and they're trying to manipulate you into getting what they want.

If you can figure out what they want then you see through the lies. Sometimes what they want and what you want line up. Sometimes you can change what they want to what you want (the Coercion check for the Redcliffe Desire Demon can change it to realizing it wants to live more than possess some child and then you force it to do what you want in exchange for its life).

I don't see them as a cancer, just NPCs that want something and are usually lying to you.

[Torax]

I didn't bring up the story to defend them. Yes they are evil. Was just pointing out how one had no interest in fighting said player. Get off your high damn horses...

[Kartikeya]

Torax wrote...

I didn't bring up the story to defend them. Yes they are evil. Was just pointing out how one had no interest in fighting said player. Get off your high damn horses...

Most of the more intelligent demons you meet have no interest in fighting and would rather cut a deal. That's generally why they're considered more dangerous. Rage demons usually just try to murder you. Desire and Pride demons realize they can get what they want more effectively by making deals. Note that, naturally, she is absolutely not remotely willing to give up her new toy.

I dunno why you think we're on high horses for discussing stuff?

[Mnemnosyne]

Kartikeya wrote...

While this is true in regards to Merrill, is there really any point in the games where listening to what a demon has to say is really ever a good idea? Ever?

Anyone remember the Grand Oak?  Yeah, that was a demon, just like the sylvans.  He chose to accept his fated oaken home.  All demons aren't identical.

How about the desire demon in Connor?  She keeps her bargain, for what that's worth.  It might not be the best outcome for Connor or others, but as far as the Warden is concerned, listening to her was an entirely beneficial proposition.

The demon in the primeval thaig is pretty much entirely forthright.  He only gets upset if you try to take the treasure he considers 'his', I believe.  Although I always just let Varric give him a face full of Bianca at that point.

I think the Sloth demon in Feynriel's fade area is also straight with you.  Though I'm not sure as I haven't played through all the various options in that one.

Merrill is absolutely right in that it's worth hearing demons out and considering their offers.

As far as Merrill and Marethari go, the more I think about that the more I find it interesting.  Both of them have been somewhat wrong from the outset, but I feel as though more of the blame lies with Marethari than with Merrill.  If they had worked together to find better options, none of that would have ever happened, and it seems as though it was Marethari who was primarily to blame for everything, as she just said no and refused to listen to Merrill, consider other options, or try to find a better way.  Merrill was right - Marethari never once believed in her.  I almost detect some jealousy there too, in that Merrill was in some ways a better Keeper than Marethari. 

And I don't doubt that the pride demon was influencing Marethari far more than it was influencing Merrill.  After all, Merrill is at least willing to consider that she might be wrong, if you push her hard enough in that direction, while Marethari is a prideful stubborn old goat who kills herself rather than admit she was wrong, or even give Merrill the chance to prove her wrong.  Her actions forever deny Merrill the chance to accomplish her goals, it seems, and in some ways it feels like she does that so that, no matter what, she can never be shown to have been wrong. 

After all, if Merrill had been right and she and Hawke could have handled the demon and repaired the Eluvian, Marethari would have been proved unquestionably wrong and Merrill would have demonstrated that not only was she more capable of handling the demon, but also more dedicated to the Keeper's job of restoring and remembering ancient elven things.  It would have been clear that Merrill was better than Marethari in every way, and that was something she couldn't allow.

[Torax]

I brought it up in how the demon just wanted to talk and wanted absolutely nothing. It costs the player nothing. Wynne and Leliana didn't even make you lose approval for it. The 2 chantry thumpers didn't find it wrong. Then I get all these responses about the evil of the demon. That is called beating a dead horse of this thread folks.

@ Koy

I got this weird feeling earlier. Started to think maybe we're forced to have the Keeper die to lock in that she is exiled. But then I have to wonder why Tali'zorah could be saved from exile. Guess cause there isn't blood magic in Mass Effect.

Modifié par Torax, 01 avril 2011 - 11:15 .

[JayTheWolf]

 I don't know. I can't seem to befriend Merrill at all. I've always had a rivalry with her. Not sure why. 
Probably because I'm not that friend who will always stand by someone's decisions for the sake of friendship. 

"Give me the tool, Hawke!"
"NO **** YOU'LL DIE." 
Was for her own good, and she hated me for it. :/

[Torax]

JayTheWolf wrote...

 I don't know. I can't seem to befriend Merrill at all. I've always had a rivalry with her. Not sure why. 
Probably because I'm not that friend who will always stand by someone's decisions for the sake of friendship. 

"Give me the tool, Hawke!"
"NO **** YOU'LL DIE." 
Was for her own good, and she hated me for it. :/

Being a Rival for Merrill is just about getting her to quit blood magic. If for example she is romanced as a friend? She just cries at losing the keeper but will keep working on the mirror and probably toy in blood magic. If she is rivaled she shatters the mirror and probably won't use her blood magic again ever.

The one I can't be nice to is Anders. Helps that he is so emo once Act 2 and 3 hit.

[The Angry One]

Of course you'll get rivalry for not giving her the tool
You, like Marethari are treating her like a child. Most people in fact don't like to be coddled or have their decisions second-guessed.
If she's wrong then so be it, again it's her mistake to make. No one else's.

[Foolsfolly]

JayTheWolf wrote...

 I don't know. I can't seem to befriend Merrill at all. I've always had a rivalry with her. Not sure why. 
Probably because I'm not that friend who will always stand by someone's decisions for the sake of friendship. 

"Give me the tool, Hawke!"
"NO **** YOU'LL DIE." 
Was for her own good, and she hated me for it. :/

I friended her once. I can't friend her after that. I just disagree with her reckless obession too much.

This is why I like the new Friend/Rival system so much. I can still romance her and disagree with her.

[Kartikeya]

The desire demon in the tower wanted you to let her have her Templar thrall. That's what she wanted. And I don't think it's ever directly stated whether or not the spirit possessing the Grand Oak is a demon or not, though that's most likely (but then, it says that it's different, and has 'accepted' what it is, and doesn't seem to really remember being anything else. Trivia! ...Is it still a demon, if demons are only spirits perverted by their desires?)

I find it interesting than mage vs. templar threads are full of 'mages are prone to go abomination at any moment!' but Merrill threads are 'hey, if she turns into an abomination, that's her decision and her mistake to make, no one should question it'.

[The Angry One]

Kartikeya wrote...

I find it interesting than mage vs. templar threads are full of 'mages are prone to go abomination at any moment!' but Merrill threads are 'hey, if she turns into an abomination, that's her decision and her mistake to make, no one should question it'.

Actually a lot of people would argue mages must be contained not because they're at risk of being abominations, but because they'll likely use their power to become Magisters and this is backed up because, for better or worse, all societies with free mages have mages as their leaders in Thedas. Tevinter, Arlathan, the Dalish.

Merril? If she becomes an abomination, she must be killed. But in the end what she's trying to do is restore lost technology and that isn't a bad thing.

[Torax]

I think what is more important that even Merrill probably wouldn't admit. If the Magisters of Tevinter were only able to use the Eluvians for communcation. What does she think she could do with it while not even having their knowledge? But I'm of the getting her to shatter the damn thing crowd.

[TMA LIVE]

The Angry One wrote...

Of course you'll get rivalry for not giving her the tool
You, like Marethari are treating her like a child. Most people in fact don't like to be coddled or have their decisions second-guessed.
If she's wrong then so be it, again it's her mistake to make. No one else's.

If she did die, it would've been your mistake for pushing her towards a goal she couldn't handle.

And if you were treating her like a child, you'd rob the mirror from her. Hawke didn't do this, nor destroyed the mirror. And neither did the Keeper.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 01 avril 2011 - 11:43 .

[The Angry One]

Torax wrote...

I think what is more important that even Merrill probably wouldn't admit. If the Magisters of Tevinter were only able to use the Eluvians for communcation. What does she think she could do with it while not even having their knowledge? But I'm of the getting her to shatter the damn thing crowd.

Arlathan, not Tevinter.
And Merril isn't restoring it to use it for power or whatever, she wants to restore it to it's original function as a symbol of what the elves could once make.
I suppose it would be something like in the future humans were reduced to a bronze age level and somebody was able to restore a working radio. It's not going to change the balance of power but it's living proof of how grand your civilisation once was.

TMA LIVE wrote...

If she did die, it would've been your mistake for pushing her towards a goal she couldn't handle.

Pushing her? It's her own ambition.

And
if you were treating her like a child, you'd rob the mirror from her.
Hawke didn't do this, nor destroyed the mirror. And neither did the
Keeper.

Denying her the tools to restore the mirror accomplishes exactly the same thing as taking the mirror.

Modifié par The Angry One, 01 avril 2011 - 11:47 .

[TMA LIVE]

Gisle Aune wrote...

Getting friendship is not always by doing the right thing.

The keeper is to be blamed IMO, since she took the blow for Merrill, when we could have just fought it like another boss creature, since we fight at least 2 other of those demons in the game.

I keep hearing this, but there's no proof of that. For all you know, the Pride needs to possess something first before it can be fought. And the last time Merrill went up against a Pride Demon, she gave and in tried to kill Hawke.

[Foolsfolly]

TMA LIVE wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Of course you'll get rivalry for not giving her the tool
You, like Marethari are treating her like a child. Most people in fact don't like to be coddled or have their decisions second-guessed.
If she's wrong then so be it, again it's her mistake to make. No one else's.

If she did die, it would've been your mistake for pushing her towards a goal she couldn't handle.

And if you were treating her like a child, you'd rob the mirror from her. Hawke didn't do this, nor destroyed the mirror. And neither did the Keeper.

Indeed.

One could even argue that had the Keeper treated her like a child then the clan would still be alive.

If she acted like Merrill had no say in anything and took that piece of the mirror away and destroyed it...well...then she'd still be the First of the clan and there'd be more Dalish elves sitting on a mountain for 7 years.

Seriously, what happened to their halla?

[Torax]

I knew full well that the Eluvian was Arlathan. Why I said Tevinter Magisters only figured out how to use them for communication when they found them

[Kartikeya]

The Angry One wrote...

Merril? If she becomes an abomination, she must be killed. But in the end what she's trying to do is restore lost technology and that isn't a bad thing.

Not in and of itself, no, not at all. But we're talking about an artifact that has already killed at least one of her clan, possibly two (or, really, if you want to be technical, it kills both of them even if you played a Dalish Warden. It just kills the Warden thirty years later). Duncan says, while Merrill is right there, that 'over time, some of them simply...break'. Remember that Merill knows nothing about the Eluvians outside of what a demon has told her. She did not know what it was in the Dalish Origin. She gets all of her information from the Sundermount demon. She has only its word that the Eluvian was ever something worth restoring. She's not acting on logic here, she's acting on emotion. She desperately wants to restore a piece of her people's history. She desperately wants to make the deaths of her two friends mean something. And the more time she spends trying to do it, the more she has invested, the more she's determined not to give it up, even when absolutely everyone she knows is telling her it's a bad idea.

And the argument about mages and abominations is that abominations are dangerous and tend to rampage around murdering people until they get offed. Which suggests that this particular mistake is, as much as she wants it to be, NOT only going to affect just her.

Yes, I know, Hawke is a super ultra badass who would of course succeed in killing abomination!Merrill because otherwise you'd hit the game over screen, and it's responsible of her to ask Hawke to come along...but if you refuse, she says she'll go alone. If you go up there and she sees that her clan is STILL squatting on Sundermount, it doesn't seem to give her pause that, you know, if the impossible happened and abomination!her defeated Hawke, her clan is right in the path of destruction. Merrill considers consequences, she just doesn't consider them enough in a lot of cases. I've made this argument before, that she has a naive belief she can control all the outcomes and determine that she'll be the only one affected by what she does. She can't, which is why it's tragic.

[TMA LIVE]

The Angry One wrote...

Torax wrote...

I think what is more important that even Merrill probably wouldn't admit. If the Magisters of Tevinter were only able to use the Eluvians for communcation. What does she think she could do with it while not even having their knowledge? But I'm of the getting her to shatter the damn thing crowd.

Arlathan, not Tevinter.
And Merril isn't restoring it to use it for power or whatever, she wants to restore it to it's original function as a symbol of what the elves could once make.
I suppose it would be something like in the future humans were reduced to a bronze age level and somebody was able to restore a working radio. It's not going to change the balance of power but it's living proof of how grand your civilisation once was.

TMA LIVE wrote...

If she did die, it would've been your mistake for pushing her towards a goal she couldn't handle.

Pushing her? It's her own ambition.

And
if you were treating her like a child, you'd rob the mirror from her.
Hawke didn't do this, nor destroyed the mirror. And neither did the
Keeper.

Denying her the tools to restore the mirror accomplishes exactly the same thing as taking the mirror.

1) It's her damgerous ambition which you support. If she died. "shurgs". That's what you want. Yet you supported the thing that got her killed, if that happened.

2) Hawke made a choice because the Keeper gave him the right to do it. It was given to him to do what he thought was right. You saying it's fair to just give it to Merrill because she's saying "GIVE ME GIVE ME!"?

And no it doesn't. She fixes it anyways, without it.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 01 avril 2011 - 11:52 .

[The Angry One]

I'd point out that what Merril wanted to do was essentially a Harrowing.
Harrowings are conducted regularily in all circles without mass murder occuring when the mage fails, so everything suggests that had Merril become an abomination, her death by Hawke would've been swift.