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[sphinxess]

Rifneno wrote...

Filament wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

But is there a way to go where you tell her she's so stupid that the Chantry should declare it an official miracle that she survived past age 12 without ever picking up a black mamba and going "this poor cat is so skinny!"?  Because that's the path I want.  The biggest plot hole isn't dead characters appearing or timeline errors, it's the fact Darwinism didn't claim Merrill in about 20 years living in forests full of poisonous flora and deadly predators.  No, seriously, Merrill is beyond belief.  You want to tell me that all the bad mages are slitting their wrists and using their blood for mana everyday without dropping dead from blood loss?  Fine, I'll accept that.  You want me to believe a fully grown adult who doesn't own 3 buckets for drool thinks that a mugging is a "welcome to the neighborhood" greeting?  No, I do not accept that!

*deep breath*  /nerdrage off.

The urban jungle is an entirely different beast than the jungle jungle.

That it is, and I thought that was her problem at first.  It's not.  I exaggerate for comedic effect of course, but I do believe the part about it not being realistic that she even survived childhood.  No matter what society you're raised in, you can't think that a mugging is a "welcoming" ceremony and that no one likes you because they haven't violently beaten and robbed you.  Simple animals that don't understand concepts like 1+1=2 or that they aren't really invisible if they stick their head under the couch can understand violence and hostility perfectly.  How does Merrill not?

And it's not like she's even passable in her native society.  She's a pariah for a reason.  She stubbornly refuses anyone else's teachings and claims she knows better for no apparent reason.  She's like one of those annoying teenagers that insists they know absolutely everything about everything and everyone else is an idiot - except taken to an extreme that I can't even describe.  While the cat line may have been a joke, it would be completely in-character for her to attempt to handle a dangerous animal while other Dalish watch in horror and scream warnings to her while she calmly replies, "No it's okay, I know how to handle these."  Which of course ends in a Darwin Award.

Gah - Im glad you dont know me in real life - thats exactly the type of thing I would say if I saw a mugging, at least the people that know me understand that type of humor.

<maybe the game needs a laugh track>

Modifié par sphinxess, 01 avril 2011 - 01:43 .

[Zan Mura]

The Baconer wrote...

And now we have Merrill apologists. Marvelous.

Oh but it's nothing a good ol' vague oneliner won't fix, right?

[Mnemnosyne]

I didn't mean to suggest that Marethari would, entirely of her own will, go to such lengths to prove her wrong, but I suspect she was actually being influenced by the demon far more than Merrill. Especially considering proximity - she's the one who's been sitting right outside its cave for six years, while Merrill headed off to Kirkwall. Since the demon is bound to its idol, its influence over a great distance is presumably lessened if it can exert any at all.

I don't question that Merrill was being prideful and stubborn - there were other options that she could have pursued even with Marethari blocking her. Had she tried to contact other Dalish clans, she may have gotten in touch with the clan Ariane came from and learned of another eluvian, fully functional. Or found another Keeper that has the knowledge to help repair it, who would be willing to find a way to do it as safely as possible. There were other options, but Merrill was stubbornly focusing on only one thing.

But I think that Marethari was being moreso, and after being influenced by the demon, refused to allow Merrill to succeed in this, whatever the cost. She said it was dangerous, after all, she said that the ancient elves meant it to be forgotten (something for which there is no indication at all, ever, by the way) and she insisted that it should be destroyed and that they shouldn't even try to find a safe way to deal with it.

Merrill was always right in wanting to seek out a way to restore the mirror, and Marethari was always wrong in flat out denying any path toward doing so. It was that above all else that started them both on the path they were on.

[Foolsfolly]

I didn't mean to suggest that Marethari would, entirely of her own will, go to such lengths to prove her wrong, but I suspect she was actually being influenced by the demon far more than Merrill.

I see no evidence to support this theory.

The way I saw it....

Marethari knew better than to trust a demon. She didn't like the mirror shard either, nor Merrill's blood magic. She is firm in these beliefs and Merrill is not.

Marethari is not corrupted. Marethari however is too stupid in love for her surrogate daughter Merrill. So when Merrill keeps the shard of the mirror, Marethari lets it. When Merrill makes a deal with a demon for blood magic and understanding of the mirror...Marethari doesn't abandon her and take the clan as far away as possible.

She makes sure Merrill gets a protector and then sits around waiting for Merrill to come back to the cave. Why? Merrill says she can't believe the Keeper's still there so even without Halla they could move. So why's Marethari there?

I believe after years of arguing with Merrill (and generally raising her) she knows Merrill. She knows when she's done with the mirror she'll come back to find out what she did wrong. I believe (there's no in-game proof) that the demon lied to her. Why? Because it all comes down to what the demon wants, which is to be free of its trap.

Telling Merrill how to fix the mirror and then waiting for her to return to become an Abomination is a stupid deal for that demon. Telling her a lie about the mirror which forces her to come back however makes more sense. Then the Demon has a better stance for bargaining. Afterall, she's come this far why not go a little farther.

I think the Keeper knows Merrill will not be able to resist any offer. We see this in the Fade and even Fenris tells Hawke that she will always side with demons over Hawke. Sad but true. The Keeper loves Merrill too much to bare the thought of her becoming an Abomination and so she takes the demon into herself to spare Merrill.

It's actually really sweet.

It's love that made her take the demon into herself. Not corruption. She loved Merrill more than she loved her clan and more than her own self-preservation. It's sweet but tragic. If the Keeper had been sterner with Merrill...maybe this wouldn't have happened. If she'd snatched the piece away and bashed it into dust...

But she enabled Merrill and ignored her duties as Keeper and risked all their lives over one person. Not the most respectable thing in the world but it's human. It's based in human emotions and thus it's understandable if foolish.

EDIT:

And "why didn't the Keeper just talk to Merrill?" She tried. During Act 1 and Act 2 she tries to talk Merrill down again and again. Then in Act 3 you bring Merrill to her and she tries again before resigning to go 'stale' the demon, which is when she accepts it. She realizes Merrill will not back down from this and if tempted with an offer she wants to hear...she'd likely take it.

Now should she have trusted Merrill? I don't know. I don't think so. I think she would betray anything for any offer the demon would have. She doesn't talk to everyone on the way up about how tough the battle is, she's trying to settle things in case she becomes an Abomination. She knows she's likely going to fail too. Credit for her self awareness but that's like saying "I don't think I can make this jump" and then falling to your death. Good job on assuming you couldn't do it, bad work on still trying.

But when the Keeper acted it took the power away from Merrill to decide and we'll never definitively know one way or the other. So that discussion on IF the Keeper should have had more faith in Merrill is entirely up to each person's opinion.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 01 avril 2011 - 02:05 .

[Badpie]

This is what irks me about everyone saying that Merrill is so cute and sweet and awesome. I mean sure, she is. I enjoy the character, but she's also the worst kind of stupid and prideful. She ignores warnings left and right for her own completely selfish (even though she claims it's selfless) acts and as a result terrible things happen. It's like Hawke said "Exactly what part of 'don't talk to demons or horrible things will happen' did you not understand?" She's obsessive and won't listen to anyone. As a result she's the only one I've ever had full rivalry with because I refuse to placate her ridiculous and terribly unwise desires. And even after everything terrible happens she can't even take responsibility for it! She's all "I never asked Marethari to do this for me" and yada yada.

I think Fenris summed it up perfectly.

Fenris: So you were close with this Marethari.
Merrill: She was like a mother to all of us.
Fenris: Then I am sorry.
Merrill: You're not sorry. To you she was just another mage. What do you care?
Fenris: I'm not sorry she's dead. I'm only sorry that she died for you.

......*smacks Merrill*

[Bayz]

Merril the Despoiler!!

[Wulfram]

One thing that's interesting about Merrill's pride is that it's also her lack of pride - of self worth - about things other than her scholarship which leads her down this path too. She thinks she'd be an awful keeper and that restoring the Eluvian is the only way she can do something worthwhile.

[Rifneno]

Badpie wrote...

This is what irks me about everyone saying that Merrill is so cute and sweet and awesome. I mean sure, she is. I enjoy the character, but she's also the worst kind of stupid and prideful. She ignores warnings left and right for her own completely selfish (even though she claims it's selfless) acts and as a result terrible things happen. It's like Hawke said "Exactly what part of 'don't talk to demons or horrible things will happen' did you not understand?" She's obsessive and won't listen to anyone. As a result she's the only one I've ever had full rivalry with because I refuse to placate her ridiculous and terribly unwise desires. And even after everything terrible happens she can't even take responsibility for it! She's all "I never asked Marethari to do this for me" and yada yada.

I think Fenris summed it up perfectly.

Fenris: So you were close with this Marethari.
Merrill: She was like a mother to all of us.
Fenris: Then I am sorry.
Merrill: You're not sorry. To you she was just another mage. What do you care?
Fenris: I'm not sorry she's dead. I'm only sorry that she died for you.

......*smacks Merrill*

I also endorse Anders' line, "That was the noblest thing I have ever seen.  The world is lesser for having you in it instead of her."  (Yes, I know guys, can we please skip the obligatory Anders hate?)  I don't particularly like the venom when she's just been through... that... but he's got a point.  She's the poster child for the templar supporters.  A complete idiot with access to immortal horrors that refuses to listen to any kind of reason, logic, or wisdom.

[Foolsfolly]

A complete idiot with access to immortal horrors that refuses to listen to any kind of reason, logic, or wisdom.

She's not a complete idiot. She's just...naive is the best word for it. She does not listen to anyone because she just assumes she's right; that she knows more than anyone else.

[Bayz]

Dalish showdown

I kinda like the idea of Merril being an abomination though.

Modifié par Bayz, 01 avril 2011 - 02:33 .

[Wulfram]

Foolsfolly wrote...

She's not a complete idiot. She's just...naive is the best word for it. She does not listen to anyone because she just assumes she's right; that she knows more than anyone else.

About the Eluvian, she certainly does know more than anyone except Marethari.  Actually she probably knows more about that than Marethari, at least after she's spent years painstakingly reconstructing it.  It's not her knowledge that you can question, but her judgement.

[TobiTobsen]

Bayz wrote...

Dalish showdown

I kinda like the idea of Merril being an abominaation though.

Merrill = Abaddon would at least explain why she is failing at everything she does.

[Rifneno]

Foolsfolly wrote...

A complete idiot with access to immortal horrors that refuses to listen to any kind of reason, logic, or wisdom.

She's not a complete idiot. She's just...naive is the best word for it. She does not listen to anyone because she just assumes she's right; that she knows more than anyone else.

No.  A naive person gets taken in by a swindler in lowtown.  A complete idiot says "you're all wrong, it'll be fine to get this superdemon's help to cleanse this ancient taint that everyone else says should be abandoned."

[Foolsfolly]

Rifneno wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

A complete idiot with access to immortal horrors that refuses to listen to any kind of reason, logic, or wisdom.

She's not a complete idiot. She's just...naive is the best word for it. She does not listen to anyone because she just assumes she's right; that she knows more than anyone else.

No.  A naive person gets taken in by a swindler in lowtown.  A complete idiot says "you're all wrong, it'll be fine to get this superdemon's help to cleanse this ancient taint that everyone else says should be abandoned."

Well, calling her 'pigheadedly stubborn' just sounded too ugly for someone so cute.

[jlb524]

Am I the only one that thinks people are far more dangerous than demons and capable of far greater atrocities?

I guess I don't see dealing with demons as all that bad....

[Lithuasil]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The overly anal (but I love them for it) fans that run the Dragon Age wiki had this to say about our original conversation.

New Path. Merrill does gain Rival points when you choose to blame her blood magic and thus save the clan, and friendship points for killing her whole clan.

She'd rather slay her extended family than get blamed for anything.

Not true. Merill isn't a metagamer. She doesn't know that telling the truth will make the clan go "herp derp killcrazy". She gets friendship for not being blamed for a terrible tragedy (to her, anyway) that she is absolutely not to fault for, and rivalry for being falsly accused of responsibility.

[sphinxess]

Rifneno wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

A complete idiot with access to immortal horrors that refuses to listen to any kind of reason, logic, or wisdom.

She's not a complete idiot. She's just...naive is the best word for it. She does not listen to anyone because she just assumes she's right; that she knows more than anyone else.

No.  A naive person gets taken in by a swindler in lowtown.  A complete idiot says "you're all wrong, it'll be fine to get this superdemon's help to cleanse this ancient taint that everyone else says should be abandoned."

I agree that she should probably talk to some Tevinter mages before taking any final steps - but that isn't what this is about - she is returning to the mountain to talk to the demon again and work out another trade for knowledge - this idea shes offering her body isn't in her plans - that won't fix the mirror.

As far as listening to all the well meaning advice well except for the keeper its pretty much on the order of Blood Magic run away or Demons run away why should it have equal weight? I suppose she could poll people in the streets also...

Modifié par sphinxess, 01 avril 2011 - 03:21 .

[LobselVith8]

embert1ger wrote...

Does anyone else find it messed up that Merril would rather see her whole clan slaughtered than admit she was wrong and leave peacefully?

Because in two options, you don't blame Merrill for what happened, and in one option (that evades a fight with the bigoted Dalish hunters), you place the blame on Merrill and her blood magic.

embert1ger wrote...

Seriously, killing her entire clan gives +10 friendship while leaving them peacefully gives +15 rivalry. 

Incorrect. Blaming Merrill gives + 15 rivalry and telling the truth gives +10 friendship.

embert1ger wrote...

At this point, I'm done trying to appease her stubborn delusions to gain her friendship.  I'm begging to supsect she's been possessed this whole time.

She wants to help her people and is willing to give up her life for the slim chance that her goal will succeed. Why would you think she's an abomination?

[Badpie]

jlb524 wrote...

Am I the only one that thinks people are far more dangerous than demons and capable of far greater atrocities?

I guess I don't see dealing with demons as all that bad....

I would agree with this if all the lore of Dragon Age didn't tell us that demons prey on the weakminded making them commit atrocities or at least making them less hesitant to do so.

I'd like to clarify that I don't think Merrill was possessed or any demon "made" her do anything.  It presented her with something she desired and because she's a complete bonehead she fell for it, thereby ruining the lives of lots of people.  Hooray for Merrill.

Modifié par Badpie, 01 avril 2011 - 03:25 .

[sphinxess]

sphinxess wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

A complete idiot with access to immortal horrors that refuses to listen to any kind of reason, logic, or wisdom.

She's not a complete idiot. She's just...naive is the best word for it. She does not listen to anyone because she just assumes she's right; that she knows more than anyone else.

No.  A naive person gets taken in by a swindler in lowtown.  A complete idiot says "you're all wrong, it'll be fine to get this superdemon's help to cleanse this ancient taint that everyone else says should be abandoned."

I agree that she should probably talk to some Tevinter mages before taking any final steps - but that isn't what this is about - she is returning to the mountain to talk to the demon again and work out another trade for knowledge - this idea shes offering her body isn't in her plans - that won't fix the mirror.

As far as listening to all the well meaning advice well except for the keeper its pretty much on the order of Blood Magic run away or Demons run away why should it have equal weight? I suppose she could poll people on the streets also - Im sure they are all experts on what shes doing

[LobselVith8]

Hrodric wrote...

It is said that pride fell the Devil himself.

How is trying to restore the Eluvian to help her people any different than the Warden going into the Frostback Mountains during the Blight in order to obtain a magical Urn of Sacred Ashes?

Darth Krytie wrote...

Merrill irritates me because her whole spiel about blood magic -- I can control it--sounds an awful lot like an alcoholic who claims they can stop anytime they want.

She's a mage who uses magic. Grey Warden mages have also used blood magic.

Darth Krytie wrote...

She's doing dangerous things, won't listen to anyone, even those who have loads more wisdom than she does, and does things she knows are dangerous because she's too stubborn to accept that maybe she's wrong.

Or maybe she's right. I suppose we'll never really know.

Darth Krytie wrote...

And her clan's response? Was after years of Merrill going down this path, against the advice of basically everyone. She disregarded their safety and their opinions first. And even up until the end, she would have been welcomed back if she gave up the blood magic and the destructive path she was on. And even if Marethari made the choice to take the Pride Demon in her, she wouldn't have had to if Merrill was willing to listen to reason.

How is Merrill risking the clan's safety by being an exile? How is Marethari's refusal to move the clan from Sundermount Merrill's fault? Why is she on a destructive path using blood magic when she's shown through several years that she can use it proficiently?

[Bayz]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Bayz wrote...

Dalish showdown

I kinda like the idea of Merril being an abominaation though.

Merrill = Abaddon would at least explain why she is failing at everything she does.

Awww that's harsh...and true btw:P

[jlb524]

Wulfram wrote...

One thing that's interesting about Merrill's pride is that it's also her lack of pride - of self worth - about things other than her scholarship which leads her down this path too. She thinks she'd be an awful keeper and that restoring the Eluvian is the only way she can do something worthwhile.

I agree.   She does want to help her people but has difficulties relating to them as people given her poor social skills and lack of confidence in that area.  Therefore, she turns to magic and the mirror project.  Magic is the one thing that has set Merrill apart and given her a sense of self-worth.

I fail to see any selfish motivations in her actions.  I'm sure part of it is her own curiosity but I think ultimately the main driving force is in helping her people by restoring lost lore which, in her mind, is one of the primary Keeper responsibilities.

[Badpie]

I see her actions as selfish personally. She wants to help, yes but not because she actually cares what's best for the clan. She wants to help so the clan will respect and appreciate her. That was what I got from her. That she wanted to prove them all wrong so that one day they would say "you're right, Merrill and thank you. You were right all along. What would we do without you? You truly are a hero to the Dalish."

BTW, J.  Your Hawke is smokin.  

Modifié par Badpie, 01 avril 2011 - 03:40 .

[jlb524]

Badpie wrote...

I would agree with this if all the lore of Dragon Age didn't tell us that demons prey on the weakminded making them commit atrocities or at least making them less hesitant to do so.

I'd like to clarify that I don't think Merrill was possessed or any demon "made" her do anything.  It presented her with something she desired and because she's a complete bonehead she fell for it, thereby ruining the lives of lots of people.  Hooray for Merrill.

The lore is coming from Chantry doctrine for the most part and they say that demons are the biggest baddest most dangerous things out there.  If your perception of demons matches that, then yes, Merrill is an idiot.

My point is that she doesn't believe this given she's an elf and all that...no Chantry.  I tend to share this perception personally (hell, my Warden was a blood mage) and don't think it's much different from putting  trust (and a load of money) in Bartrand and having him stab you in the back later on.

I mean, Isabela (even though I love her to death) caused much more death/destruction/chaos without all the demony things and blood magic.  She's just a human with flaws.